14 year old student stabbed to death outside his East End Hamilton Highschool.

[Old Ironmaker]

I'm sure most everyone is aware of this dreadful tragedy that occurred this past Monday behind Sir Winston Churchill Secondary in Hamilton's East End's Parkdale neighborhood. A 14 year old and a 18 year old youth have been charged with 1st degree murder of 14 year old student Devan Bracci-Selvey. Police confirm after early investigation the motive is most likely bullying., it's far too early to confirm that. Devan's poor Mom witnessed this brutal murder. Devan had called her after lunch to come and get him as he was being intimidated once more by a group of youths that had attempted to steal his bike earlier in the school year. This was reported to both the Vice-Principal as well as the Principle of the school early in  Sept. I have contemplated posting this since early in the week. I am because this could be any of our children or Grand Children. I grew up not far from Parkdale where we swam in the only east end pool we had and played shinny on the only outdoor rink we had in Parkdale Park in Winter.  Many of my friends as early as kindergarten attended SWC when I attended Glendale secondary not far away starting in 68'. As early as the late 50's Parkdale was notorious for it's infamous local street gang "The Parkdale Gang." Then latter known as "The Mini Mobbers."  that were made up of the younger brothers, friends and Family of the original members. In Parkdale members were predominantly made up of white Anglo Saxons. A working class section of the city where most Dad's and some Mom's worked in the heavy industry of the North End that made Hamilton. Of course the North End had it's own groups of youths, a group who was mostly 1st generation Canadians of European and predominantly of Italian decent.  This was and still is a tougher part of Hamilton. In the 60's many lived in what we called "War time homes." Low income housing then later low income hi-rises in Parkdale. Nothing different than many parts of Hamilton and cities and towns across Canada. There were territorial disputes that were often settled in the "Park" as it was and still is known. What I am rambling on about is the difference between the 3 generations of Hamilton youth. We settled disputes with hands and fist. I knew of not one single person ever being shot over any dispute let alone stabbed  in the 60's and 70's , and there were many. Gun play started in the early 80's and it only took 1 or 2 murders and the gangs basically dissolved. Most original members went on to become contributing members of our civil society, great Family men that are good loving Grand Fathers today, many are my friends that once were enemies. Some went into a life of crime to this day, not even a hand full. Many didn't make it to their 40th birthday for many reasons including drug and alcohol abuse and addiction, early death due to poor health as well as suicide. What I am terribly trying to say is this teen "bullying" is nothing new. I don't know if those charged are members of a local street gang, I would bet the farm they indeed are. 

I pray that this heinous murder may stop the cycle of violence in Parkdale and Hamilton as it was stymied in the 80's. 

I had to say something. 

Johnny D. 

[Big Cliff]

Very sad indeed! I think the problem with the kids of today is they are brought up not having to be accountable for their actions. 

[ketchenany]

Johnny D we hold our kids close and teach them values. I have  4 daughters and they all have kids (9) we are a “family” they have respect for all of us. My parents kept us in line and we had to obey them or we got it.

Today kids roam on their own and no supervision! Parents leave it up to the schools! That is crap! Teaching starts in the home. 

last night was and example, taught one l how to stoke a fire and then we roasted chestnuts. We sat outside and talked. He asked why am I getting smoke in my eyes, then I thought him about wind direction!  Can we roast marshmallows, yes go find some, he did and and was going to hold them over the fire NO we need skewers. Do we have any? Yes we do.

He told me he will always remember what we did. he’d did burn the skewer a few times, they were mini mellows.

It was fun and I’m sure he will cherish what he learned. 

 

A lesson and it was fun. 

[Rizzo]

I hope the offenders are punished very seriously...should spend most of their life behind bars in my opinion. Disgusting what they did

[Old Ironmaker]

8 hours ago, Big Cliff said:

1 hour ago, Rizzo said:

I hope the offenders are punished very seriously...should spend most of their life behind bars in my opinion. Disgusting what they did/

Rizzo a father and son were recently convicted of 2nd degree murder out our way after dropping the 1st degree charges. They waited in the dark for a 16 year old kid and shot him dead. 11 and 7 year sentences respectfully. A slap on the wrist. 

Very sad indeed! I think the problem with the kids of today is they are brought up not having to be accountable for their actions. 

Oh so true Cliff, so true. 

 

4 hours ago, ketchenany said:

Johnny D we hold our kids close and teach them values. I have  4 daughters and they all have kids (9) we are a “family” they have respect for all of us. My parents kept us in line and we had to obey them or we got it.

Today kids roam on their own and no supervision! Parents leave it up to the schools! That is crap! Teaching starts in the home. 

last night was and example, taught one l how to stoke a fire and then we roasted chestnuts. We sat outside and talked. He asked why am I getting smoke in my eyes, then I thought him about wind direction!  Can we roast marshmallows, yes go find some, he did and and was going to hold them over the fire NO we need skewers. Do we have any? Yes we do.

He told me he will always remember what we did. he’d did burn the skewer a few times, they were mini mellows.

It was fun and I’m sure he will cherish what he learned. 

 

A lesson and it was fun. 

I take it you mean "teens" Albert. Our kids don't know how far out on a limb they can climb because they were never allowed to climb a tree in the 1st place. They grew up in the Bernardo era and weren't allowed to leave the house unsupervised by an adult let alone play outside alone. We walked to school alone at 5 years old. If a 5 year old is found outside alone today the Police would be called. It is amazing what little our youth know today about every day life. My 34 year old niece with 2 babies never learned to ride a bike. My former sis in law said it was too dangerous, come on man!! She never learned to drive a car as well. I'm no phycologist but don't have to be to know why not. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[ketchenany]

No John he is only 10. I take them out on walks and teach them to Respect nature and people.

and yes they have iPads and the internet that can influence them. Maybe when they will be teens they will change. Hopefully not on my watch.

 

[woodenboater]

I've been thinking about this a lot and it's extremely disturbing, esp with the boy's mom there. I find I'm probably more pessimistic than others re: this and don't see any hope tbh. There will be lots of people saying the right thing but it will fade away.

Bullying does not exist in a vacuum and I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of many incidents at this school .It's likely Devan was bullied during school a lot and I really wonder if anyone stood up for him when they had the chance ? It's easy to do after the fact, but less so when the rubber meets the road.

But yeah, the 18 year old shld get the maximum sentence possible, esp since he was charged with 1st degree. I'd like to see the other person moved to adult as well but that's probably not going to happen.

Sorry for the rant, but he shld be celebrating Thanksgiving with his family, instead a mom is mourning the loss of her son.

Edited October 13, 2019 by woodenboater

[misfish]

My younger brothers were picked on when they were younger due to our last name. I was always in trouble due to my last name. I was able to stand up for myself. Probly why I was always getting in trouble. I would fight anyone that would try to  bully to me. For that,I got in trouble as they didn't see bullying back then, just a guy that wanted to fight. I was always told,that's no reason to fight. LOL What about the other guy ?  When  I found out my younger brothers were getting picked on and couldn't defend them selfs, I would be stepping up to these bully's. I wasnt a tough guy, but could hold my own.  With that came , others that want to try being bully's. With that came more trouble for me, but finally ,my brothers learned to stand up. Was it right ? 2 wrongs don't make a right ? If you didn't fight back,you lost. Stand up, win or lose,and get respect. Some felt the need to keep pushing, then they learned that they were looked on as a dick, and just trying to impress their so called friends. Their life lesson came to fruit when our sister was getting older and in high school. Do not mess with her, she has 3 older brothers. She hated us for keeping her safe. No boy friends were allowed unless we approved. Funny now, but not back then.

Today bullying is being noticed,KUDOS to all that help, but seems not enough.  You beat the crap out of a bully, you lose,unless you have witnesses that will back you up. Many kids today are ignorant to what is really out there. Is this the right word, not sure. They have no real idea of what survival is. Sad that I have to use this word, survival . Today there are many out lets to report bullying. Online,phone and the police.

 

Do not be afraid to speak up/out.  Or you could stand up, but in today's world, you get well, shot or stabbed because your not made that way. .

Sorry I had to end this post with that, but it is what it is.

 

 

[Sinker]

I fear for my kids, but they know what to do with bullies. My son has already knocked one out cold, sticking up for someone else.  Caught on video, and he did the right thing. No, he's not a fighter, and stays out of trouble, but he knows  when to do the right thing and for the right reasons.  (a boy hit a girl)

The real problem I fear, is the consequences these punks are going to face. They will likely get a slap on the wrist. Even time in jail isn't enough IMO. 

I'd be doing time if it was my kid who was murdered. Proudly. Our justice system is so failed, I would have to take it in my own hands.  I will be following this case to see how it pans out. These kids need to be made an example, and hammered with the harshest consequences possible, and tried as adults. We can't have kids running around who are capable of MURDER. They need to be locked up, or gone forever. 

I know, I sound harsh, but those are MY thoughts. This country has gotten way too soft.   There's no justice in our justice system. The victims are the criminals, and pay the biggest price. Its just not right. What ever happened to an eye for an eye? 

I feel so bad for this child's family, especially his poor mother. My god what she must be going through.  I can't even imagine. 

S. 

[lew]

My son was a 6'4" iron worker and as strong & tough as they come... (but was also gentle as a lamb)... and growing up nobody ever messed with him but whenever one of his buds was being bullied Jim went in and took care of business and the cowards never bothered his buds again..

As an adult he was sitting in a bar by himself one evening having a beer and there was a table next to him with 9 loud mouths bothering everyone around them. My son had longish hair at the time plus a diamond stud earring and one of the punks came over and started hassling him about it. Jim let it slide and just continued enjoying his beer. When he was done he got up and left the bar but was followed by the 9 and once in the parking lot they started the fight. Jim was so damned tough he took them all on and won the fight all by himself and walked away with nothing more then bloodied knuckles but left the "tough guys" with a bunch of busted faces and broken teeth.

Guess what I'm saying is these kinda punks are all ages and only seem to want to cause trouble when they're in a group of like minded cowards. Probably not much anyone can do other than pound the crap outta them and hopefully let them see what it's like to be on the receiving end.

[npt1]

Back in the day when the Government approved the  "Young Offenders Act" , 

Maximum 5 year penalty for ANY CRIME!!

I thought to myself,  those Politicians just gave kids a "licence to kill"

I have found that to be true, kids have more rights than adults and their own parents have.

Society better wake up and stiffen the penalties for these so called  "children"

My heart aches for the family of the latest killing in Hamilton of a student.

 

 

[Old Ironmaker]

7 hours ago, ketchenany said:

No John he is only 10. I take them out on walks and teach them to Respect nature and people.

and yes they have iPads and the internet that can influence them. Maybe when they will be teens they will change. Hopefully not on my watch.

 

You misunderstood Albert. Dammed if I can remember the point I was trying to make.

 

36 minutes ago, npt1 said:

Back in the day when the Government approved the  "Young Offenders Act" , 

Maximum 5 year penalty for ANY CRIME!!

I thought to myself,  those Politicians just gave kids a "licence to kill"

I have found that to be true, kids have more rights than adults and their own parents have.

Society better wake up and stiffen the penalties for these so called  "children"

My heart aches for the family of the latest killing in Hamilton of a student.

 

 

 There is a program on one of the US networks. Children prisoners doing time as adults. There is one kid that was incarcerated in a tough prison in Texas at age 15. He did his 15 years and now is a professional criminal. It has been said prison is secondary education for criminals. But I do get your point. Just yesterday we were talking about how light or criminal system is on young offenders. In the 60's if you stole a kids bike you did 6 months in boys reform school in Guelph. Shop lift, a year. Abuse was rampant but isn't incarceration a form of abuse? It's supposed to be. 

[limeyangler]

Cant imagine, don't want to even , the pain this poor mother feels right now. I have read all the comments on here and it seems that a lot of the opinions about what the solutions are to bullying are something I take issue with but am silenced by the sites 'no politics' policy. What I will say is that some seem to think bullying is worse today than it was in the golden years of yesteryear, from a person of colour who was beaten regularly for that reason alone at school, and knowing many other people who suffered the same, the Golden years of yesteryear don't exist for a lot of people who lived through that mythical period.

[lew]

^^^^ Your absolutely right Simon and I'm sure bullying started the 1st day we evolved from apes and it'll probably last until we're no longer on this earth.

[woodenboater]

yup. bullying was definitely around back in the 70's. but there was no social media to amplify, or spread the ugly. I think what some here are trying to say is that back then, things were dealt with after school, behind the portables, with fists. Today it's knives and guns.

[cisco]

The Principal and Vice principal knew of this and did nothing. I blame them. They are highly paid to get stuff like this out of their school. They should have brought the bullies in with their parents and read them the riot act with police in attendance if things seemed serious enough. Back in the day nobody did anything about bullying. In fact some teachers liked to do it to students. The educational system is in drastic need of legal strengthening to set up proper immediate safeguards against mentally unstable students. Pecking order happens everywhere in nature and in human populations. To not admit and act on this is like sticking one's head in the sand like another animal we now... an ostrich.  

[BillM]

It's interesting what a few punches to the face can quickly solve.  

[AKRISONER]

The problem with bullying In 2019 is social media.

 

back in the day kids got a break. The kids that were getting bullied at school could at least go home. Nowadays it’s relentless. You get bullied at school and then on the Internet 24/7.

i personally had two older brothers and one was a pro mma fighter that was known around town. they toughened me up enough that if it came down to someone trying to push me around or bully me I could handle myself. The one time when I was in grade 9 that a grade 12 decided to even speak my name, it was quickly squashed when he was advised that if he stepped to me, he’d be answering  to my brother. That ended that.

unfortunately not everyone has that benefit, however learning how to defend yourself is a life skill much like swimming. It can save your life. Maybe a bit of a different story though if kids decide to use weapons instead of their fists.

[BillM]

There were knives and stuff like that when I was growing up to.  I doubt it's much more prevalent these days to be honest, you just hear about it more because of how quickly information passes these days.  

[Old Ironmaker]

I appreciate all the comments and our opinions are respected here whether we agree it is the solution to bullying or not. I was bullied the very 1st day of Kindergarten, didn't even get into the school yet, it was in line. I was 4 turning 5 in October, (in fact today, yesterday now was my 65th birthday.) Anyway my Mom made a bouquet of Roses to give my teacher. David  M. told me I was sucky dago for bringing the teacher flowers. I had no idea what sucky meant or what a dago was. It was the 1st time in my life I was frightened and adrenalin kicked in. We went to what we called a "Protestant" school. All my friends and cousins went to Catholic schools. My Mom would have none of Catholic schools as she and her brothers all went to Catholic schools with those Nun's in NY during the 30's and 40's. I was one of two Italians that went there, and Lenny C. told everyone he was French! From Kindergarten to the 10th grade I was terrorized. I was the oldest of 3 boys, no older brother or cousins around to defend me. I made a list of those I was going to get my vengeance. Between grade 10 and 10 that I failed my father sent me into the Steel Plant to work the summer. I was 15. I shoveled sand and refractories for 8 straight hours a day. Grew a good 8"s and gained about 40 pounds of muscle. I still had the list. I became the bully. I played Sr. Football at 190 lbs. both ways in grade 11, 12 and 13. Some on the list were on my team and others actually went to Sir Winston Churchill the same school were this poor kid was murdered and some at Delta Secondary. I went through that list 1 by 1. Took care of them on the field in practice or during games for my 3 senior years. Some I met on the street hanging around The Red Barn fast food joint. Thinking back I have to admit I was the bully and these kids might have deserved the good beating I gave them but when I became an adult became ashamed of myself. To this day I feel bad about it. This is a good one. Dave M. and his older brother kept on bullying "The Wop" right until that summer I worked at Stelco at 15. I'm riding the brand new 10 speed I bought, I also bought 2 new bikes for my little brothers that summer, Dave and Aaron were driving behind me in this humongous old hoopdee Buick they probably stoled that day, David and Aaron were driving to school in grade 8 in stolen cars at 13 or 14 yrs old. They start bumping me on my new bike with the car. Yelling out the window " Hey wop your getting it, pull over."  I take off and head up a dead end street. When they catch up they have nowhere to go. I pull Aaron out the window of the drivers side, give him a smack and he's flopping around on the road like newly hooked Perch on the dock, by that time David is trying to get out his side and he gets the same thing. They are crying like little girls saying they are sorry they only wanted to say Hello Deef. My nick name then. I said something that if I see them again they are getting knocked out again including their father who they always went to for protection. Was it fair? I out weighed them by 40 pounds by then. No it wasn't, I was the bully but it sure felt dammed good I tell ya'. Don't I run into them here at the lake 40 years latter at a Golf tourney. Both are dead now from alcohol and drug abuse. They were members of The Parkdale Gang. The word then was that I was going to get it from the other members of the Parkdale Gang, that day never happened. That's what happens when bullies get bullied. They run away and hide. 

Sorry all, I've only told that story to me wife until just now. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[jonasdry]

I'll start with nobody deserves to die. I'll also mention that I grew up in this neighborhood sort of. Some family and a lot of friends lived on Lang, Melvin, Roxborough, etc. It's a tough area, it's also "the projects". Parenting in that area is not quite up to par with more affluent areas. To blame the school, especially for something that didn't happen on the school property is just wrong. I am not an educator, nor do I support a lot of what they do, so I am not biased or sticking up for them.

The problem with children of today is that there is no accountability or responsibility, something I have been dealing with for my own children as well. I spend a lot of time and effort trying to teach my kids that good behaviour and hard work will reward you in life. In the area of town that these kids live in, parent's generally don't put that much effort into parenting.

I don't know the fellow that died, or his mother or his family so in no way am I saying they did anything wrong or they are to blame. What I am saying is that I grew up in that area and I still know a lot of people in the RH, Barton, Parkdale, Queenston block. I know how things are there.

There needs to be some punishment changes in the system for sure. The area there has most certainly been cleaned up and is looking a lot nicer that it was when I grew up there but it still has a way to go. Hopefully this tragedy will encourage some of the local politicians to find cash for some social programs that will allowed the kids to interact a bit more with each other and reduced the cliques in the area or at least reduce the animosity of the kids. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by jonasdry

[AKRISONER]

Seriously, thank god for siblings. I don’t know about you guys, but the guys that toughened me up the most both physically and mentally we’re my brothers. They were bloody ruthless to me as a child. Gave me thick skin and taught me how to fight people way bigger than me. (They were 8 and 9 years older than me respectively)

I’m now thinking back to the fact that my middle brother becoming an mma fighter and teaching me boxing defense saved my ass one night. Was out with a buddy at the Madison in Toronto and my buddy josh has a nack for having absolutely 0 filter when he got drinking. Sure enough he starts being a bit too annoying to a group of already looking for a fight “tough guys” you know the type, gold chains, fancy haircuts and cologne. Anyways one of them decides they have had enough with josh being drunk and annoying, being the tough guy he is he decides to punch josh square in the face instead of just telling him to get lost. Of course the rest of these “tough guys” now see an opportunity to start throwing punches at the guy that’s already stunned. They all start hitting him and josh goes down to his knees and proceeds to take a kick straight to the face. Seeing him get kicked and them gearing up to continue to lay boots to him while he’s unconscious, I jump between him and this crowd of 5 guys. Of course they start throwing bombs at me. My brother taught me one thing about striking, you never leave your chin open. These guys proceed to throw a pile of punches at me which I keep tucking my chin to and either slip or force them to punch me bare knuckles right in the top of my head most likely breaking their hands. I still remember that after they had all thrown a few rounds and I was still standing there with no marks on my face they were slightly more hesitant to keep throwing. (I’m guessing their hands were hurting pretty bad lol) a random girl finally stepped in and said alright it’s 5 on 1 relax. Thank god my brother beating my ass my entire life saved josh’s and my own ass that night

[Spiel]

This literally happened in my backyard as it were. The street where my children lived when with their Mother.

I am filled to the core with rage and anger but more so......disgust, incredible digust!

To note, what I'm reading now is that it was the 14 year old who plunged the knife into Devan 18 God Damn times in front of is Mother while he tried to get into her car.

That 14 year proven guilty needs a death sentence!

 

 

[pics]

The accused boys are brothers who were moved recently to the area because of previous incidents where they used to live. One of the 2 that were originally charged and released played ball hockey with my daughter and their dad seemed like a decent guy. He was always complaining about his ex and how useless she was as a parent. The 2 suspects seem to be more than their mother could handle..I lived in the area briefly as a kid and never had to worry much about bullies because I had several cousins that went to both Hillcrest and SWC.. it was a tough area to live in but it's worse now..

[Terry]

I could be wrong but I don’t consider stabbing someone 18 times as a case of bullying 

the kid may be a bully but I think there has to be more to the story

18 freaking times and in front of his mother and other people

thats nuts.