Has she got her heart set on destroying this province?

[Steve]

crap, I'm agreeing with Moxie.

 

I'm going out for some fresh air!

[moxie]

crap, I'm agreeing with Moxie.

 

I'm going out for some fresh air!

Don't do it Steve!!!! There isn't much room on this ledge but the view from up here is simply extraordinary.

[Canuck2fan]

 

 

It is not just through attrition. My co-workers wife was laid off from Sick Kids hospital. If fact, her whole department was eliminated. That was before this year; but it was still during the McGuinty/Wynne years when they were supposedly restoring all of the cuts by Mike Harris.

 

As far as the increase in the total number of nurses. How does that compare to the increase in population? Ontario's population has increased significantly since 2003; obviously, we will need more nurses.

 

If your friend's department had 20 nurses that were laid off, but 30 more were hired in another new department is that is an increase or a decrease in the number of nurses. Without knowing the staffing levels of the entire hospital before and after any such changes it is impossible for anyone to say with accuracy.

 

As for the number of nurses being increased by the same percentage as the population, that is a fine question, feel free to look it up. I know no matter what anyone else finds out and posts the numbers you will just challenge it anyways LOL.

 

The whole point I was trying to make is that the government, the union and hospital administrations are all using nurses as pawns to push an agenda. At the same time the public will always resent any cut in numbers but only about 100th as much as having taxes raised by one red cent... The nurses get caught in the middle of it all. Do you think the pols, union reps or ceos are going to take a pay cut to have more nurses on the floor, not bloody likely, so the money to pay them has to be fought over, and it is...

[moxie]

Like ive stated before. My fathers stay in Critical Care will hit the six week mark this coming Monday. Some nurses have been both professional and compassionate and deserve to be held in high regard but im afraid most have been an embarrassment to the institution of health care and public service. Rude, condescending, disrespectful, but worst of all, indifferent. Its a high stress situation and with short staff it must be difficult but is it asking too much to just "Zip It" and do the job to the best of your ability instead of acting like you're doing us a favour?


Public service seems to be a place where tenure is rewarded in most cases over performance and that leads to the mediocrity and the entitlement we see today across public service.

You can blame whomever you choose but in the end I'm paying you very well to do a job, do the best job you can and if you cant handle it find something else cause I'm sure there are plenty in line waiting to show what they are capable of. After all you are just a number as I am. Nothing more.

Almost forgot. To Ontario's Public Employees. You jumped in bed with the Uncles Dalton and Kate to get what you wanted right? Now they wanna play rough and we are made to suffer? Shame on you. Grow up.

Edited October 24, 2015 by moxie

[John Bacon]

 

If your friend's department had 20 nurses that were laid off, but 30 more were hired in another new department is that is an increase or a decrease in the number of nurses. Without knowing the staffing levels of the entire hospital before and after any such changes it is impossible for anyone to say with accuracy.

 

As for the number of nurses being increased by the same percentage as the population, that is a fine question, feel free to look it up. I know no matter what anyone else finds out and posts the numbers you will just challenge it anyways LOL.

 

The whole point I was trying to make is that the government, the union and hospital administrations are all using nurses as pawns to push an agenda. At the same time the public will always resent any cut in numbers but only about 100th as much as having taxes raised by one red cent... The nurses get caught in the middle of it all. Do you think the pols, union reps or ceos are going to take a pay cut to have more nurses on the floor, not bloody likely, so the money to pay them has to be fought over, and it is...

 

My main point is that cuts are not all due to attrition. Nurses are still losing their jobs.

[scuro2]

Too many heated guys with their knickers in a knot makes for very boring reading.

[landry]

The latest. Uncle Kates threatening to dock teachers pay. Probably a smoke screen but id like to see it happen. Bout time the takers among us and their employer get egg on their faces and a cuff on the back of their greedy noggins. "Its all about the kids" Ya right!!!!!!

Moxie. That was an uneducated and rude post.

I am a teacher. I invested in my future with five years of schooling at a cost of about 60,000.

I could have been working like my buddies were for 30,000 a year.

That put me behind them by about 200,000 - but it was an investment in my future and I don't regret it and am not whining about it.

I am not going to tell you my job is harder than yours - I have never walked in your shoes. I have a great job. I love it. But like all jobs, it looks way easier from the outside. Ask my students parents and they will tell you I work hard and go beyond expectations for their family.

I never whine about my job.

What I do hate though is having my contract negotiation and "myself" being misrepresented in the press. The facts are right now that OPSBA has been refusing to meet with our union and purposely stalling. Of course they are offering us a ridiculously slashed contract so far (not the same as the high school teachers got btw - that's a lie) - but that's just good bargaining tactics. Now Kathleen is swooping in and finishing the plan by imposing a deadline when we, all teachers, have been wanting to talk and compromise all along.

Don't believe everything you read in the media. Teachers care about class size and kids greatly. Do they care about themselves too - dam right. I have taken benefit cuts and pay freezes or "raises" that were actually below the cost of living many times in my twenty plus years teaching. Nobody, including you Moxie, wants their family to move backwards.

And I ask you this - do you really want to strip away Health Care and Education bit by bit until we have what the Amricans have - a two tiered system where the wealthy send their kids to private schools and get immediate service when sick while the rest are stuck with second rate schools and hospitals.

As stated, I like my job a lot and I am proud to help families raise their children BUT I am strongly encouraging my children to steer clear of teaching. Why would I want my daughter to invest years of time and money to land in a job where the media and many community members will automatically assume the worst of her and insinuate she is not a hard worker. In twenty years will their salary and benefits even be worth striving for. I worry they will not.

I realize this is happening to other "middle class" workers too and it's wrong. Big corporations and government officials are not feeling the pinch like you and I. The gap is growing bigger while the increasingly poor bicker amongst themselves Take a step back - the middle class that most of us are part of is disappearing. You are getting poorer a tiny bit each year with pay freezes and climbing housing, gas...prices.

But I am not whining about my job - I love my job. And I put my all into it.

Edited October 24, 2015 by landry

[porkpie]

Save your breath Landry, your wasting time and the haters will hate. I convinced my wife to quit teaching, Why, piles of take home work, marking all the time, lesson planning, report cards, IEP's and on and on. A ton of it done on our family time. She quit, we moved to a small community, bought a less expensive house, paid off our vehicles and try to keep our costs down. I bought an old boat instead of a new one etc. etc. She supply teaches now, maybe once a week. There is always someone home for the kids, and we have way less stress. You'll never convince the people who hate you for what you have that your providing them a valuable service. Trust me, I know all about that. It's not worth the effort! As for teaching, my hats off to you... I couldn't do it, didn't want my wife to do it anymore, and I with all the hassles that come with it, I wouldn't recommend it even though I know it can be pretty rewarding at times!

[cram]

I can't think of a profession that has it's contract negotiations (mis)reported in the news as much as teachers. No one else is even close. I also find it funny when people consider 2% or whatever a "raise".

As for the negotiation itself, i wish the teachers would just go on strike or Wynne would lock them out. Get it done with.

[landry]

Thanks guys.

I wasn't looking for support but appreciate it.

And I am actually not p:&&led off with Moxie. I am so used to this stuff by now. I just wanted to point out some basic and accurate facts. We are all entitled to our opinion, even if someone else thinks it's ridiculous.

[ehg]

Moxie. That was an uneducated and rude post.

I am a teacher. I invested in my future with five years of schooling at a cost of about 60,000.

 

 

The Moxie guy always is taking shots at our best. Firefighters, nurses, teachers, etc....He has a severe chip on shoulder. Too bad....

 

Personally have been very disabled for years and these nurses, doctors, paramedics, etc have saved my life and are usually funny, smart and kinda cool.

My best friends are teachers and they work long and hard days responsible for 30 kids or so.

[manitoubass2]

Im not even sure why teachers are having to negotiate anything???

 

They have one of the most important jobs in society and should be, without a doubt, compensated accordingly.

 

Im 35 and my high school world politics teacher still meet and talk, hes an awesome teacher and friend till this day.

 

The school my kids go to is unreal! Every teacher is amazing!!! They teach kids how to garden and do all sorts of cool stuff outside the ciriculum but is important as well.

 

They teach to strengths then search new ways to teach areas of difficulty(never seen that when I was a child)

 

Anyhow, pay the teachers fairly. Uneducated kids are tend not to be the best society has to offer later in life

Edited October 24, 2015 by manitoubass2

[NANUK]

Too many heated guys with their knickers in a knot makes for very boring reading.

 

Exactly !!

I respect a well informed and educated opinion, whether I agree with it or not.

A negative argument based on pure hate and whatever hidden agenda is like internet pollution to me.

[moxie]

The Moxie guy always is taking shots at our best. Firefighters, nurses, teachers, etc....He has a severe chip on shoulder. Too bad....

 

Personally have been very disabled for years and these nurses, doctors, paramedics, etc have saved my life and are usually funny, smart and kinda cool.

My best friends are teachers and they work long and hard days responsible for 30 kids or so.

[BillM]

Sorry guys I had to poke Bill M over this one it is not meant to sidetrack this thread.

 

 

Art

 

Bah, it's all in good fun. That's what discussions are for. I've seen my fair share of racism on this side of the border, definitely not posting from my high horse

[moxie]

No doubt there are exceptional people in all aspects of public service and i realize the challenges they face for wnatever reason but when there are contract issues the bottom line is always money. Me me me. Mine mine mine. From where i sit that doesnt square with me especially when its public money. Many of us in the private sector work very hard as well and in many cases have been doing the work of more than one employee for years and consistently see taxes far outstrip and monetary gains while services are cut and incomes in public services continue to rise far above what we can afford

 

Rude, mean, offensive? Bad Moxie!!!!!! I dont apologize for having thick skin. Ive conditioned myself to watch out for my own interests. Just as public employees have. Id frankly love to see the day when most public agencies are privatized and compensation packages are based on performance instead of whatever scheme they use to justify the excess we have seen for decades.

 

Dont take it out on me. Follow the money.

[moxie]

Moxie. That was an uneducated and rude post.

I am a teacher. I invested in my future with five years of schooling at a cost of about 60,000.

I could have been working like my buddies were for 30,000 a year.

That put me behind them by about 200,000 - but it was an investment in my future and I don't regret it and am not whining about it.

I am not going to tell you my job is harder than yours - I have never walked in your shoes. I have a great job. I love it. But like all jobs, it looks way easier from the outside. Ask my students parents and they will tell you I work hard and go beyond expectations for their family.

I never whine about my job.

What I do hate though is having my contract negotiation and "myself" being misrepresented in the press. The facts are right now that OPSBA has been refusing to meet with our union and purposely stalling. Of course they are offering us a ridiculously slashed contract so far (not the same as the high school teachers got btw - that's a lie) - but that's just good bargaining tactics. Now Kathleen is swooping in and finishing the plan by imposing a deadline when we, all teachers, have been wanting to talk and compromise all along.

Don't believe everything you read in the media. Teachers care about class size and kids greatly. Do they care about themselves too - dam right. I have taken benefit cuts and pay freezes or "raises" that were actually below the cost of living many times in my twenty plus years teaching. Nobody, including you Moxie, wants their family to move backwards.

And I ask you this - do you really want to strip away Health Care and Education bit by bit until we have what the Amricans have - a two tiered system where the wealthy send their kids to private schools and get immediate service when sick while the rest are stuck with second rate schools and hospitals.

As stated, I like my job a lot and I am proud to help families raise their children BUT I am strongly encouraging my children to steer clear of teaching. Why would I want my daughter to invest years of time and money to land in a job where the media and many community members will automatically assume the worst of her and insinuate she is not a hard worker. In twenty years will their salary and benefits even be worth striving for. I worry they will not.

I realize this is happening to other "middle class" workers too and it's wrong. Big corporations and government officials are not feeling the pinch like you and I. The gap is growing bigger while the increasingly poor bicker amongst themselves Take a step back - the middle class that most of us are part of is disappearing. You are getting poorer a tiny bit each year with pay freezes and climbing housing, gas...prices.

But I am not whining about my job - I love my job. And I put my all into it.

 

 

The number one thing that irks me about those that teach is that they automatically assume others are uneducated, especially when its their ox that is being gored. Simply a cop out Just because you may well be the brightest bulb in the box of dimly lit teaching bulbs does that mean that every one of you must rape....er I mean reap the same financial rewards because a public union(Conflict of interest) deems it should be so? My uneducated mind must be missing something.

 

About tiers in health and education. Sorry to inform you from my uneducated point of view but i'm afraid they already exist which is another aspect of a contradiction in terms. Why must we pay out of pocket if there is already a system in place. Maybe due to the fact our publicly financed institutions are falling well short of expectations. Even to an uneducated mind they would seem to be second rate.

 

When speaking about compensation I would appreciate it if you refrained from insulting our intelligence. The media can spin any yarn they wish. The numbers do not lie.

 

Regarding the "Middle Class". We all pay taxes and I would like to see public hangings take place when they are mismanaged but am I to understand that if it costs me more to prop up the public service I will be better served by it financially? At this rate you remaining a part of the "Middle Class" will mean my demise from it.Sacrifice the many to save the few. Probably another one of my uneducated guesses.

 

We are paying too much for a system that is too fat and carrying a lot of dead weight. Tired and broken on many fronts and it is time for an enema. That I am willing to throw hard earned tax dollars at.

 

Until teachers and the rest of the public sector understand we are in this together things will never get better. I have a great deal of respect for the institution that is Education but I'm afraid it has become anything but .

 

I apologize for any uneducated perspectives in this post. I now need to go out and purchase another keyboard as the drool has rendered this one inoperable.

Edited October 26, 2015 by moxie

[BillM]

Teaching should be made into an essential service. The only part I disagree with is that they can strike and the kids are the ones that suffer. If I started to picket outside my office, I'd be fired.

[DRIFTER_016]

If I started to picket outside my office, I'd be fired.

 

Not if you were unionized!!!

[moxie]

Not if you were unionized!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Correction. Not if youre a Unionized Public Employee. I'm unionized and i can guarantee that if i started trouble with either the shop or my employer i'd be black balled by both. Only those in the governments pocket seem to have the ability to skate where others would surely fall through the ice. Suspended with pay especially makes my stomach turn.

[cram]

Teaching should be made into an essential service. The only part I disagree with is that they can strike and the kids are the ones that suffer. If I started to picket outside my office, I'd be fired.

 

 

This is the best idea in this thread. If it's an essential service everything is settled by arbitration and there doesn't have to be months or years long death-by-paper-cut negotiations.

 

The gov would likely never do it though.

[Steve]

I believe it also makes it illegal to strike if you are an essential service....

[Gerritt]

Steve, look at the TTC..... They are fighting in court after being deemed an essential service... Claiming it is un-constitutional! They are losing!

 

Willing to take this to the Supreme Court......

 

 

My point is,

 

If the TTC can be deemed and essential service due to 1.5 million riders a day, sure teachers can also be deemed essential with a lot more pupils in Ontario vs. TTC ridership.

 

Unions don't like to be told what to do.

 

G

[Dara]

Don't forget

 

80% of MPP's are teachers that have to go back to teaching when they don't get re-elected.

[misfish]

Teaching should be made into an essential service. The only part I disagree with is that they can strike and the kids are the ones that suffer. If I started to picket outside my office, I'd be fired.

 

 

The very bottom line and the saddest of all Bill,,,,,

 

 

OUR KIDS LOSE.

 

What part of this dose no one get?