GM CLOSING IN OSHAWA -----N F

[chris.brock]

1 hour ago, grimsbylander said:

To be frank, it seems a little silly to act surprised or outraged that a company such as GM has decided to rid itself of the shackles of a union that was more than willing to kill the golden goose.

I also hear ya. But outraged isn't the right word, disappointed is more fitting, since it was the tax payers that saved the company when they were on the brink and lately the company has been netting $billions.

This wasn't a surprise either. Oshawa has been slowly whittled down over the years. Running 1 shift in the whole plant isn't sustainable. The writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of when if they didn't add a new product.

I like my blue collar job. It suits me just fine in many aspects. I don't have to make sales, or deal with any office politics, or try to climb the corporate ladder. When I leave at the end of the day I forget about the place and they forget about me. It's a shame these jobs aren't going to be around. A company can be profitable and it's workers can be paid a decent wage for an honest days work. 

 

[Tjames09]

3.5 billion loss so they could close it all down a few years later....solid investment 

[grimsbylander]

18 minutes ago, chris.brock said:

I also hear ya. But outraged isn't the right word, disappointed is more fitting, since it was the tax payers that saved the company when they were on the brink and lately the company has been netting $billions.

This wasn't a surprise either. Oshawa has been slowly whittled down over the years. Running 1 shift in the whole plant isn't sustainable. The writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of when if they didn't add a new product.

I like my blue collar job. It suits me just fine in many aspects. I don't have to make sales, or deal with any office politics, or try to climb the corporate ladder. When I leave at the end of the day I forget about the place and they forget about me. It's a shame these jobs aren't going to be around. A company can be profitable and it's workers can be paid a decent wage for an honest days work. 

 

I agree with everything you've said Chris. My outrage reference was not about you, it was to some the reactions witnessed on the news feeds. Definitely an emotional time for those involved.

[DRIFTER_016]

3 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

The Japanese automotive boom crushed the north american automotive manufacturing sector. 

I think the large majority of people would trust the reliability of a tacoma or tundra over any north american truck any day of the week. And in GM's case when the trucks cost just as much...sounds to me like you are only selling trucks to people that have always bought a GM just because Japan meant garbage back in they day...doesnt sound like a great business model to me.

Visit Japan, you will immediately understand why their automotive sector is doing just fine. They do almost absolutely everything better than us, except play hockey. (infastructure, transit, education, pollution etc etc.) Hard work is embedded in their culture, good luck competing with people that feel like working yourself to death is an honourable thing to do...no joke.

 I can assure you their success is not because of cheap mexican labour. 

I have been driving Honda's for over 25 years now.

They have all been good vehicles. And mostly better than the NA vehicles I've owned.

For my next vehicle I plan to get a Toyota Tundra.

Which are built along with the Tacoma's in Texas. ?

[AKRISONER]

1 hour ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

I have been driving Honda's for over 25 years now.

They have all been good vehicles. And mostly better than the NA vehicles I've owned.

For my next vehicle I plan to get a Toyota Tundra.

Which are built along with the Tacoma's in Texas. ?

i regret buying domestic..in hind sight i should have just financed the cummins nissan...oh well. Not that Nissan hasnt been immune to Bull lately, but it aint shutting down.

For real though theres a reason that when it came time to buy my first boat, even at 20 years old I made damn sure the outboard was a japanese motor.

Edited November 28, 2018 by AKRISONER

[SirCranksalot]

[OhioFisherman]

4 hours ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

I have been driving Honda's for over 25 years now.

They have all been good vehicles. And mostly better than the NA vehicles I've owned.

For my next vehicle I plan to get a Toyota Tundra.

Which are built along with the Tacoma's in Texas. ?

? So it isn't the auto workers, it's the auto executives?

[DRIFTER_016]

8 minutes ago, OhioFisherman said:

? So it isn't the auto workers, it's the auto executives?

It's the companies way of doing things.

Their commitment to quality.

My current Honda which is now 13 1/2 years old was built in Alliston. 

These Japanese vehicles are built in NA to Japanese standards which seem to be higher than NA  vehicle manufacturers. 

[OhioFisherman]

5 minutes ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

It's the companies way of doing things.

Their commitment to quality.

My current Honda which is now 13 1/2 years old was built in Alliston. 

These Japanese vehicles are built in NA to Japanese standards which seem to be higher than NA  vehicle manufacturers. 

My mom and youngest brother bought a couple of new cars years ago, like a 1977 mercury cougar and a 1978 ford thunderbird, the back bumpers fell of of both of them a year apart. Mom's fell off as she pulled into our driveway a few months after the warranty expired, and it wasn't like a big bump she hit.

Funny that our auto executives seem to think they are worth millions of dollars a year more than the Japanese auto executives?

[misfish]

17 minutes ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

It's the companies way of doing things.

Their commitment to quality.

My current Honda which is now 13 1/2 years old was built in Alliston. 

These Japanese vehicles are built in NA to Japanese standards which seem to be higher than NA  vehicle manufacturers. 

We make parts for the 2nd/1st tier Dave. Yup Honda. They have the strictest demands on products we weld. They  visit and will drill so far up the ying yang. For some reason they leave happy, and we feel like we had a colonoscopy.

 

[Dutch01]

7 hours ago, Tjames09 said:

3.5 billion loss so they could close it all down a few years later....solid investment 

Another way to look at it, with numbers I pulled out of the air because this isn't my job.

They say there are 6 or 7 jobs created to support each job at GM so

7 x 2500 = 17500 jobs wild guess average $30K per year = $525M x 20 % tax = $105M PER YEAR in taxes going to the government. And the bailout was ten years ago. So that's $1.05B.

Add 2500 gm jobs at a round $50K per year (and most pay more than that), 30% tax rate and that's another $37.5M per year or $375M. 

Now add all the sales taxes generated when those salaries are spent. And then add the taxes on the profit that spending generates.

And finally if GM wasn't bailed out and had folded the Gov would have spent hundreds of millions per year or more on social assistance and retraining.

On the balance of things I'd say it could have been worse.

 

*not sure why my font went all wonky there sorry

Edited November 29, 2018 by Dutch01

[OhioFisherman]

5 minutes ago, Dutch01 said:

Another way to look at it, with numbers I pulled out of the air because this isn't my job.

They say there are 6 or 7 jobs created to support each job at GM so

7 x 2500 = 17500 jobs wild guess average $30K per year = $525M x 20 % tax = $105M PER YEAR in taxes going to the government. And the bailout was ten years ago. So that's $1.05. 

Add 2500 gm jobs at a round $50K per year (and most pay more than that), 30% tax rate and that's another $37.5M per year or $375M. 

Now add all the sales taxes generated when those salaries are spent. And then add the taxes on the profit that spending generates.

And finally if GM wasn't bailed out and had folded the Gov would have spent hundreds of millions per year or more on social assistance and retraining.

On the balance of things I'd say it could have been worse.

One of the trucking companies I worked for was a major carrier for ford gm chrysler, those numbers are probably pretty close. A lot of the parts that go into a car aren't made by an actual auto company.

There used to be dozens of metal stamping factories  in the Cleveland are that made various pieces, spring companies, wiring, seat assembly s, and even the vinyl for the seats, floor mats, oil filters, you name it.

[Tom S]

1 hour ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

It's the companies way of doing things.

Their commitment to quality.

My current Honda which is now 13 1/2 years old was built in Alliston. 

These Japanese vehicles are built in NA to Japanese standards which seem to be higher than NA  vehicle manufacturers. 

Interestingly enough, Toyota attempted to teach GM their methods to success, look up the NUMMI plant in Fremont CA (which in some strange twist of fate is now the Tesla plant). Even though they were able to produce cars at the same rate and same quality as the Japanese plants GM was unable to implement the success in other plants - it ran contrary to the culture embedded in management and the workers. And so began the slow death of the American auto makers. 

[pics]

I feel for the workers at these plants. An assembly line is certainly not a fun place to earn a living.  I work with a girl that quit Toyota..the money was good but the beating the body and mind takes wasn't worth it to her, especially after she turned 40.. 

[SirCranksalot]

Many good points being made on this thread. 

 

Japanese companies have more loyalty to their employees and vice versa compared to NA companies. Everyone, including engineers, are more disposable to the NA companies. Bigger turnover, more rookies! I have a 2005 Chevy Venture. Some rookie engineer decided that a fiber mat in the wheel wells would absorb some of the noise from the tires. Unfortunately it absorbs water as well. It's not just my vehicle that rusted out in those areas. When it did looked around parking lots and could identify other Ventures from a distance by seeing their rust pattern. ?

[DanD]

7 hours ago, SirCranksalot said:

Some rookie engineer decided that a fiber mat in the wheel wells would absorb some of the noise from the tires.

Designers design, engineers implement the designs and the bean counters tell everyone what will be allowed. 

Dan.

[captpierre]

Regarding quality, a retired friend of mine use to run a parts plant for a Magna company. The car company people would come to check occasionally. Big differences. The Japanese were by far the most demanding and particular. Domestics far less. Chrysler the least. 

Tells me a lot. 

This is one reason I drive a 4Runner, the wifie a Subie. Outboard is Yammy.  ATV, mower and pressure sprayer  Honda. 

Hurts me to buy foreign. I would much rather buy domestic to fuel the local economy if they would make a better product. 

[SirCranksalot]

The dividing line between 'foreign' and 'domestic' isn't so clear any more. Honda has had a plant in Alliston for decades now. I understand that many of their parts come from NA. 

 

[chris.brock]

1 hour ago, captpierre said:

 

Hurts me to buy foreign. I would much rather buy domestic to fuel the local economy if they would make a better product. 

I feel the same. For me 3 Yamaha outboards, 2 Yammi sleds, Yammi gas scooter, my wife drives a Nissan. I drive a Jeep because I wanted a Jeep, but I won't be surprised when the repairs start happening. 

My wife bought a Rogue. I was kinda hoping she was going to choose the Qashqai because the whole thing is build in Japan. 

I do like my big, heavy Stihl chainsaw though, it seems well made, but I would love to try one of these.

Edited November 29, 2018 by chris.brock

[captpierre]

6 minutes ago, SirCranksalot said:

The dividing line between 'foreign' and 'domestic' isn't so clear any more. Honda has had a plant in Alliston for decades now. I understand that many of their parts come from NA. 

 

Not sure but I think powertrains for  Toyotas and Hondas assembled here are shipped from Japan. Or at least made to their standards in here.  

I recall somebody posted here a while ago that their new F150 was burning oil. Dealer blew them off saying it was normal. Buddy took it to an independent shop. One piston missing rings. 

Speaks volumes. 

[Tom S]

17 minutes ago, chris.brock said:

I drive a Jeep because I wanted a Jeep, but I won't be surprised when the repairs start happening. 

Just

Empty

Every

Pocket

[LeXXington]

24 minutes ago, SirCranksalot said:

The dividing line between 'foreign' and 'domestic' isn't so clear any more. Honda has had a plant in Alliston for decades now. I understand that many of their parts come from NA. 

 

Parts can come from NA made from Steel from China, rubber from India, and assembled in Mexico.   World market place normally to the lowest bidder

[chris.brock]

14 minutes ago, Tom S said:

Just

Empty

Every

Pocket

Junk

Engineering

Executed

Poorly

?

[dave524]

1 hour ago, captpierre said:

Not sure but I think powertrains for  Toyotas and Hondas assembled here are shipped from Japan. Or at least made to their standards in here.  

I recall somebody posted here a while ago that their new F150 was burning oil. Dealer blew them off saying it was normal. Buddy took it to an independent shop. One piston missing rings. 

Speaks volumes. 

Might have been me, that exact thing happened to a buddy of mine, but it happened in the late 70's. 

[jimmer]

This is very sad for the whole area. It will affect more than just the GM workers, as many have said.  All those workers support local charities through payroll deduction, so the hurt will go deeper than people losing their jobs. The writing has been on the wall for years, going back to the implementation of the free trade agreement. Lindsay was decimated when free trade hit, closing down Abex, LOF and Trent Rubber, not sure the area has even recovered yet.

I was wondering if one of the union guys on here can explain the reaction of the union leaders ranting about not accepting this decision and they will appeal it?  Do unions have the power to reverse a decision by a private company?