GM CLOSING IN OSHAWA -----N F

[Headhunter]

11 minutes ago, dave524 said:

where is this shop that only charges $60 a hour for labour ?

I think he is referring to the line workers at GM, not at the dealership.

HH

[Whitespinnerbait]

59 minutes ago, Headhunter said:

I think he is referring to the line workers at GM, not at the dealership.

HH

Yeep !!

[SirCranksalot]

1 hour ago, Headhunter said:

I think he is referring to the line workers at GM, not at the dealership.

HH

Haven't gone to one since the mid-eighties when they tried to rip me off for a transmission repair that I did not need(as subsequent experience clearly demonstrated)

[aplumma]

I am surprised to read how many people think that this is personal. The GM pull out has nothing to do with it being Canada but everything to do with keeping the company alive and profitable. We see this all over the place in many countries even down to the the cities. A Home Depot closes down when a Lowes moves into the area then they both pull out when they are no longer selling to the new construction boom that was going on. The Lodges up North that sell or close when they people no longer want to travel that far for poor fishing conditions. Business are there to make a product that generates a profit not to make sure that the people who are employed have a job. How many times have you heard of a a man starting a business and failing meaning he has sold everything he owns of value and now has a future of debt and the hard times of rebuilding his finances. The employees then have offered to work for free and give back some of the money they earned to save the owner. This only happens in the movies folks most people say tough luck you made a grab for the brass ring and missed. Now let this man create a business that makes him rich and now he is the bad guy because he has been rewarded for taking the chance and making smarts decisions. 

Art

[misfish]

Art

I have been with this company for 24 years now. It was super profiting when I started. Profit sharing to every employee was great. Then the slow hit. Still the company plugged along. Profit sharing  slowly dwindled then stopped. Some were not happy. I was happy to have a job. A pay stub at the end of every 2 weeks. I would sooner give up the profit share then lose my job. Company hit a low. Had to cut days and use UI to compensate for lost wages, yet no one was let go. They even cut the ground crew that took care of the property. They asked if I would take it over. They bought a lawn tractor,mower,wiper sniper, and I did it for a full summer.  Twice a week. After that one year, we started to pick up again. Everyone back to 40 hour weeks. Slowly we got back to full swing. Profit sharing had come back bit by bit. Restructuring was the big come back. After all this, we are back to getting customers coming to us. Like I mentioned before, we are expanding, and going to get busy. Having an owner that cares makes a world of difference.

Family owned.

 

Proud to be a member of this family.

[chris.brock]

1 hour ago, aplumma said:

I am surprised to read how many people think that this is personal. The GM pull out has nothing to do with it being Canada but everything to do with keeping the company alive and profitable. 

I hear ya Art, but it's the $3.5 bill grant from the tax payers to bail out GM in 2009 that makes their decision to close Oshawa a little personal and disappointing. 

[SirCranksalot]

2 hours ago, misfish said:

Art

I have been with this company for 24 years now. It was super profiting when I started. . Having an owner that cares makes a world of difference.

Family owned.

 

Proud to be a member of this family.

Sounds like they looked a bit beyond the proverbial 'quarterly profit' !!

[limeyangler]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:55 PM, JoePa said:

Well let me tell you something - you ain't seen nothing yet - wait until the full force of Artificial Intelligence and more robotics take over - all these manufacturing type jobs and manual jobs will be toast - so what do you do about it? - get some kind of skill that is not easily duplicated

I challenge anyone to duplicate my singing skills, they’re hideous!

[aplumma]

I love to hear things like this Brian when a company is so close to the employees that it is a family type atmosphere. I have found this is possible when a company is small enough to stay in touch with each other and they have the family picnics and know the employees family members by name. The reality is when a company goes from this to being a company with shareholders and policies that affect 100's to 1,000's of employees it has to be done with a broad sweeping brush that does not try to make everyone happy but tries to give something to everyone while protecting the shareholders that they answer too. I am not saying it is fair nor will I say it is always right but it is the way business is done. I have stocks as most of us do and if a company keeps losing money whether the reason is it is trying to be nice to the employees or it is failing for any reason we will pull out of the company as an investor. The deals that may have been made in the past had a way for GM to legally close the plant regardless of if it has or has not repaid the debt to ?Canada? Sorry I do not know anything about the loan so I can't speak on it. If they are walking away from a debt then it appears the penalty for doing that is less than telling the shareholders that they lost 4-6 billion dollars. I will watch to see how this unfolds because it appears there is a piece missing. A major company does not close down a division in a foreign country unless it is no longer profitable to keep it there. It could be union demands are excessive, the cost of electricity and materials are to high, or government subsidies are being lessened and eating away at the profits. The biggest and hardest thing for people to do is to distance themselves mentally from the fact that a business has to survive first before it can have any compassion for the employees. While harsh it is business 101 similar to cutting off a gangrene rotting foot to save the life of the person. It is not the first choice nor a pleasant choice that has repercussions down the line but the person lives to fight another day. 

 

Art 

[aplumma]

2 hours ago, chris.brock said:

I hear ya Art, but it's the $3.5 bill grant from the tax payers to bail out GM in 2009 that makes their decision to close Oshawa a little personal and disappointing. 

I hear you Chris I am not happy when anyone walks away from a debt. I own a plumbing company and personally if a deal is struck I will lose money on a job that I have given my word on before I will break my word. 

 

Art

[SirCranksalot]

This is a very complicated subject. Many of us grew up in the 'good old days' of post WW II North America when we had a big edge of the rest of the world. WW II had devastated much of the industrial cap'y of Europe and Japan. Public education, esp in technology, seem to be lagging far  behind in many Asian countries. Some of us remember when "Made in Japan" was a derogatory comment made about shoddy goods---cheap toys came from Japan. Now look at them and the rest of S-E Asia! It was foreign vehicles, esp from Japan, that shook N A makers out of their complacency.

We often hear about the 'knowledge economy" but we certainly don't have any monopoly on that either. This knowledge is very mobile with the internet. 

Unions and gov'ts of whatever stripe are minor players, IMO, in this whole scenario. 

   

[Fisherman]

Anyone relate this to that tune from way back In the year 2525 when man becomes useless, everything is done by machines.  It's coming early, so much done by robotics, robots teaching robots.  What do you do when there's no work.

[SirCranksalot]

7 minutes ago, Fisherman said:

Anyone relate this to that tune from way back In the year 2525 when man becomes useless, everything is done by machines.  It's coming early, so much done by robotics, robots teaching robots.  What do you do when there's no work.

Don't care as long as we get paid!!?More time to go fishing!

[misfish]

15 minutes ago, Fisherman said:

Anyone relate this to that tune from way back In the year 2525 when man becomes useless, everything is done by machines.  It's coming early, so much done by robotics, robots teaching robots.  What do you do when there's no work.

It is true, robots are coming into play more and more. I manage 5 robotic weld cells. 3 single bots and a duel bot. They can weld what ever I program them to do many tasks that are challenging, but, it takes human operators to load the cells. What they do,I am sure a robot cannot do. If one can,then I want to see it. Weld fixtures we use are complicated. Small parts that need to be put into place under covers to protect from spatter. Im not ignorant to todays robotics. I am blown away at what I see these days. I am sure there are bots being made to try and take away the operators jobs. Bots training bots,well,I want to see that, wait, no, then I would be out of a job. CRAP.

[Garnet]

Oshawa would be a good for another car company like Kia.

Modern up to date planet all the infrastructure in place. 

[DanD]

Regardless of all the politics and Bull; it's still a shame to see GM pulling out of Oshawa; it's the end of an era.

This old girl was built there, back in 1950; she's my pride and joy. 1949 was the first year for this body redesign post WW2. The original truck plant was opened in 1918, good bye centurion. 

Dan. 

[Toronto_Angler]

The bailouts were exchanged for stock which the Government sold a few years ago (at a loss). GM doesn't have any debts to the government. Just to clear that misconception up

[LeXXington]

51 minutes ago, Toronto_Angler said:

The bailouts were exchanged for stock which the Government sold a few years ago (at a loss). GM doesn't have any debts to the government. Just to clear that misconception up

Canada bought GM stock to prop up the company.  This is done based on Capital exposure.  When the stock is worthless companies are forced into bankruptcy by Canada owning stock it added stability.   Once GM was stable Canada sold the stock in small amounts over time.  Canada owns no stock.  Since they do not have any stock they lose the rights of a shareholder to have any say.

The loans of cash was in addition to this.

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by LeXXington

[chris.brock]

Where I work the company is using many, many robots for simple, repetitive tasks. If the task requires some finesse, robots aren't able to do that kinda thing yet and it requires an actual person on the job.

With so many robots, daily one or more of them often gets buggered up and won't function and causes plenty of down time. Sometimes they need a special part from the US to be repaired to get things moving again. I've seen small parts being flown up by helicopter just to get production going again asap. That must be expensive.  

[AKRISONER]

The Japanese automotive boom crushed the north american automotive manufacturing sector. 

I think the large majority of people would trust the reliability of a tacoma or tundra over any north american truck any day of the week. And in GM's case when the trucks cost just as much...sounds to me like you are only selling trucks to people that have always bought a GM just because Japan meant garbage back in they day...doesnt sound like a great business model to me.

Visit Japan, you will immediately understand why their automotive sector is doing just fine. They do almost absolutely everything better than us, except play hockey. (infastructure, transit, education, pollution etc etc.) Hard work is embedded in their culture, good luck competing with people that feel like working yourself to death is an honourable thing to do...no joke.

 I can assure you their success is not because of cheap mexican labour. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by AKRISONER

[misfish]

39 minutes ago, chris.brock said:

Where I work the company is using many, many robots for simple, repetitive tasks. If the task requires some finesse, robots aren't able to do that kinda thing yet and it requires an actual person on the job.

With so many robots, daily one or more of them often gets buggered up and won't function and causes plenty of down time. Sometimes they need a special part from the US to be repaired to get things moving again. I've seen small parts being flown up by helicopter just to get production going again asap. That must be expensive.  

Bang on Chris.

Ordering parts is easy, getting them is like pulling teeth. Canada and the US are distributors. Majority of parts come from Japan. And the prices for some components are outrageous. Eamaple.  A small piece ( wire servo ) that fits in my hand, $7000 US. Waited 5 weeks to get it.

Edited November 28, 2018 by misfish

[grimsbylander]

18 minutes ago, chris.brock said:

Where I work the company is using many, many robots for simple, repetitive tasks. If the task requires some finesse, robots aren't able to do that kinda thing yet and it requires an actual person on the job.

With so many robots, daily one or more of them often gets buggered up and won't function and causes plenty of down time. Sometimes they need a special part from the US to be repaired to get things moving again. I've seen small parts being flown up by helicopter just to get production going again asap. That must be expensive.  

Hey Chris, I've done a lot of marketing research in the area of robotics and automation. This is my last week in this job (start with a new company on Monday!) but we manufacture machined components for one of the worlds largest robot manufacturers. Part of this research showed just how involved robotics will be in the very near future and surprisingly, just how many NEW jobs will be created because of them. Yes, robotics will eliminate many jobs but as you pointed out, they don't operate autonomously and the amount of service, programming, repair, design, setup, etc. jobs will be massive. In fact, industry experts are predicting that for people will to retrain, the introduction of robotics will offer them greater employment opportunity both in volume and compensation. Robotics are N. America's answer to low cost offshore labour and without them, we cannot compete and the downhill slide will continue. Even those job functions you mentioned requiring a human's touch will soon be influenced by automation. Google the term cobot if you're unfamiliar. They are robots designed to work directly and safely with humans through the use of pneumatics and pressure sensors. 

Not trying to sound callous or uncaring but I've working in manufacturing my entire working career and seen the slow, deliberate downslide here in N. America at all levels. The last company I managed got "right-sized" (crappy term for permanent layoffs) and under direction of the owner we went from 106 employees to 16. The jobs got moved to Poland where skilled 5 axis machinists were being paid $6 an hour. In Ontario this story is extremely common and the number of lost jobs at the small business levels total WELL beyond the 3000 employees at GM and the spin-offs. These companies do not get government subsidies or tax breaks. They don't get news teams showing up and they don't have union leaders threatening to fight the closings. They don't have employees making $60/hour for simple task procedures and they don't walk off the job in protest. In Ontario, for the majority of people the death of manufacturing has been silent. To be frank, it seems a little silly to act surprised or outraged that a company such as GM has decided to rid itself of the shackles of a union that was more than willing to kill the golden goose.

[OhioFisherman]

31 minutes ago, chris.brock said:

Where I work the company is using many, many robots for simple, repetitive tasks. If the task requires some finesse, robots aren't able to do that kinda thing yet and it requires an actual person on the job.

With so many robots, daily one or more of them often gets buggered up and won't function and causes plenty of down time. Sometimes they need a special part from the US to be repaired to get things moving again. I've seen small parts being flown up by helicopter just to get production going again asap. That must be expensive.  

One day at work I had made some pickups from customers, my boss called me on the radio and asked did you pickup at company x yet? yes it's on the truck!  OK, go to Burke Lakefront airport and meet a guy that will take some of those parts. What about the rest of my pickups and closing times? We will get someone else to cover those, just get to the airport!

So I get to the airport and they direct me to a small plane, like a piper cub, and we had to unload like 3-4 hundred pounds of small metal parts onto the floor of the plane, he couldn't take more because of the weight, and they needed them quickly to prevent an assembly line shutdown. Expensive? yes, but having hundreds of people standing around because of a lack of parts is too.

At another larger trucking company I worked for it wasn't all that unusual for a helicopter to land in our yard  to pickup critical parts to avoid a shutdown of an assembly line.

LOL, not to second guess the suits, but things like that didn't seem to start happening until they decided to go to just in time shipping?

[misfish]

27 minutes ago, OhioFisherman said:

LOL, not to second guess the suits, but things like that didn't seem to start happening until they decided to go to just in time shipping?

Yup. Expediting is not cheap.

[Nemo]

I think when they bailed them out the government (provincial and federal) was given GM stock to hold in return. The province and feds eventually sold the stock  at a loss but they saved those jobs for another 10 years so many think it was money well spent. The quote below is from the Globe and Mail and the link below provides an excellent overview of the issues and history.  

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-gm-oshawa-plant-closing-explainer/

 

General Motors Corp. filed for bankruptcy protection in 2009. A multibillion-dollar bailout made the U.S., Canadian and Ontario governments part-owners of the company. More cuts came under the so-called Government Motors era, and thousands more jobs were lost when Oshawa’s consolidated plant was closed. In all, Ottawa gave $7.23-billion to GM, and the province $3.6-billion, and when both governments unloaded their GM shares in 2015, they lost about $3.5-billion on their taxpayer-funded investment.