manitoubass2 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 "We came, we saw, he died" Killary clinton on Libya Thats democratic now isnt it? Obummer" trust me, im really good at killing people" in response to drone strikes
LostAnotherOne Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 The gun control issue is going to be a never ending argument with both sides taking strong views. Glad I didn't become a politician. Oh by the way I wonder when this topic is going to be closed haha.
Dusky Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Wish this gun debate in south was more rational than emotional. Following article did a good comparison on American vs. European gun laws and how European laws which are evolving with time are more in-tune with time and saving life's. Gun Control (Europe) vs. Out of Control (United States)http://transatlantic-magazine.com/gun-control-europe-vs-out-of-control-united-states/
OhioFisherman Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 If you want to see scary statistics? Keep in mind that this is just from one major metropolitan area here. http://heyjackass.com/ For some reason the name of the site seems appropriate?
DRIFTER_016 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 If you want to see scary statistics? Keep in mind that this is just from one major metropolitan area here. http://heyjackass.com/ For some reason the name of the site seems appropriate? Luckily Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the US and is also a gun free zone.
OhioFisherman Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 http://www.infowars.com/82-shot-15-dead-in-city-with-the-strictest-gun-laws-in-the-united-states/ The article has it's points, but it is not the sole cause of the problem. Some criminals are not driven by drug money, just the idea that taking other people's money and possessions with out having to work is less constrictive on their lifestyles? Pandora's box has been opened here for centuries, how is it possible to close it?
netminder Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Pov of someone who was there and actually was concealed carrying http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/
aplumma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I understand exactly what the point is but with guns being more difficult to get up here why don't we have mass murderers running around killing dozens of people on a regular basis with other items ? It just seems to be something with the United States that make so many of them so violent, so often, whether their using guns, bombs or pencils. Lew it is not the gun that is the issue it is the people who think that killing innocentpeople acceptable. Every person has the ability to not kill thy neighbor you have to over ride that reflex to do those things. You first reflex in any situation is to run from conflict. Say we could get the guns off the street from the good guys very possible do you think the people who have made the decision to use them illegally will turn theirs in? so reality is guns are here to stay in the USA no way around it. The density and the complex life style we have/want is high pressure and is present every where is not as dense in Canada. The Percentages are slated unbalanced people exists every where in the world. If I didn't have a gun and I wanted to kill I can produce a weapon in 10 minuted misusing common products available around the house. Put the blame where it belongs SOCIETY is broken no doubt and it appears up North as well as down here. There is no difference between one man killing another for a reason that is socially not acceptable than a man who kills 10 people. After the first one is killed they are no more crazy than the man who only had one victim. The media however will give excessive coverage on the mass murder because people by nature feed off the news in a ghoulish manner. Look how often the lead stories are of tragedies rather than all of the good things going on around you. Art
aplumma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Sadly in situations like this, guns are EASIER and FASTER to use to destroy human life... especially with the extended clips that are all the rage with these maniacs who do these mass shootings. How anybody could bring up a pencil..... seriously? With a pencil you might kill one or two victims max before 10 other people could grab something to bash your frigging brains in. Against a gun that isn't going to happen as easily despite what American TV shows/movies would have us believe. I would wager is pretty hard to shoot straight when you are crapping your pants at the same time as firing... What will the NRA say when all the teachers, custodians and other school employees are armed and it happens again. Or heaven forbid one of the employees snaps and starts spraying bullets? I know all the gun bans/registering won't stop it from ever happening again, because criminals don't register their guns... However, arming more people hasn't worked so far as gun sales have sky rocketed after every shooting, from fear that the government will take away guns or stop the sales... The pencil is to show any object can become a weapon. I can in 10 minutes in your average house make a mass destruction weapon. The scary part is you can do the same using the internet. I am not trying to change anyones mind on guns and I envy Canadas lack of handguns on the street. The issue is once you got them out there gun control will not take them off the street. We are failing as a society all over the world and we all seem to have opinions and disparaging remarks instead of realistic answers. I personally do not have the answer I so far have not read a single answer to prevent man on man violence either here or anywhere I have search for it. This will be a circle discussion that has no answer. Some one asked when would this be locked the simple answer is when people break the Sites rules most often for name calling and general rudeness. Art
lew Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Lew it is not the gun that is the issue it is the people who think that killing innocentpeople acceptable. I'm done with this now Art and I've said my piece plus you and I have discussed this around campfires and in my boat and you know my feelings. You folks have a great country with millions of wonderful people, many who I consider good friends, but you have a real problem with violence and hopefully you can get it under control someday before it's too late.
cram Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics
DRIFTER_016 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Pov of someone who was there and actually was concealed carrying http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/ And then you have the unarmed ex military dude that rushed the shooter and was shot 7 times!!! Quite the difference in actions.
Pigeontroller Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) The "Guns don't kill people" argument gets old...The US has a "culture" of having guns in almost every household, glove box, etc...There's just too many guns in yer dern country! They're too easily accessible. And until that changes, there's going to be a ridiculous amount of innocent lives lost to gun violence every year! Make all the "right to bear arms", "guns don't kill people" argument you want. You will continue to have mass shootings and dead citizens ever what, hour, or two?... Edited October 3, 2015 by Pigeontroller
JoePa Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 It's been quite a discussion - this is my final post on this particular topic - for now anyway - it is estimated that there are over 300 million guns in this country - I personally have 6 rifles, 3 shotguns and 7 handguns in my house - all my 4 children who are married have at least one gun in their house - so the bottom line is that there are a lot of guns around - knowing that some of the guns are in the hands of criminals basically gives you one choice if you want to be able to defend yourself and your family - that is to arm yourself - I would much rather have a gun with me that I don't need than to need one that I don't have - Realizing the climate that exists in this country at this time all I can ask those who think arming oneself is foolish - what would you do if you lived here - leave yourself and family helpless when you are threatened with harm or even death - Finally - that student who had a concealed handgun at the subject school may not have helped others who were in different buildings but he was prepared as stated to keep those in his class safe - enough said - In the meantime - all is not so quiet on the southern front -
BillM Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Unless you've got professional training, I doubt anyone is going to jump up like Rambo and start defending themselves (Like they think they would).. You'll never know until you're faced with that situation, but to think anyone that's only poked holes in pop cans has any sort of tactical ability is silly. Look at police officers, how many hours of hands on training do they get in real life scenarios and THEY still freeze/screwup/whatever when faced with the real thing. Personally if the only way I could feel safe was with a gun at my side, I'd move. I can't imagine living life like that to be honest.
Pigeontroller Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I completely understand the desire to protect yourself and your home. We can do that here in this northern socialist Utopia! We have a few laws (rules) though before you can arm yourself...Helps keep the guns away from 'Most' of the crazies!
John Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I have watched this thread with interest as I have good friends on both sides of the debate and respect all views. Thanks for keeping it civil....... I have very strong views on guns, ownership, controls, ability to conceal and right to own, but that's another story.......... Having said that, It would be interesting to discover just how many gun owners truly understand the operation, safe use, maintenance AND PURPOSE of their firearms. Maybe Art will comment on some statistics. I feel that those who believe that buying a gun makes them safe are truly dilusional. It resides in their night stand or glove box until God forbid they decide to "defend themselves". This never turns out well. I really do believe that there are many handgun owners out there that think waving a gun at intruders, muggers, carjackers makes they somehow invincible. If you pick up a loaded gun to defend yourself you had better ask yourself the $64,000.00 question...Am I prepared to kill someone and suffer the consequences?. After all is that not what the intended use is, to kill? The topic of the thread of course it is truly tragic. I can not even begin to understand the emotional heartache, grief and anger of those who have lost their loved ones........ .
aplumma Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 I have watched this thread with interest as I have good friends on both sides of the debate and respect all views. Thanks for keeping it civil....... I have very strong views on guns, ownership, controls, ability to conceal and right to own, but that's another story.......... Having said that, It would be interesting to discover just how many gun owners truly understand the operation, safe use, maintenance AND PURPOSE of their firearms. Maybe Art will comment on some statistics. I feel that those who believe that buying a gun makes them safe are truly dilusional. It resides in their night stand or glove box until God forbid they decide to "defend themselves". This never turns out well. I really do believe that there are many handgun owners out there that think waving a gun at intruders, muggers, carjackers makes they somehow invincible. If you pick up a loaded gun to defend yourself you had better ask yourself the $64,000.00 question...Am I prepared to kill someone and suffer the consequences?. After all is that not what the intended use is, to kill? The topic of the thread of course it is truly tragic. I can not even begin to understand the emotional heartache, grief and anger of those who have lost their loved ones........ . To my buddy Lew we have chased this discussion like a dog and his tail while fishing and I always come to the same answer and that is that what you have up North is golden and I hope it stays that way. John how many people have the proper training to have a handgun in there possession the honest answer is very few. There is no requirement for any training to own a handgun. We have required training for hunting with rifles or shotguns. I would support a ridged training course as well as physiological testing before issuing a handgun permit to purchase a handgun instead of the current system to get a concealed permit. The real question the big one of can I use the gun to take a life had better be answered before you ever have to pick up the gun for defense. If the situation is life threatening and you hesitate the gun you pulled might be the gun that gets you killed. Remember we are talking about life threatening, not protect your property or teach an intruder a lesson. Anger has nothing to do with this it is simply the first one to shoot is the one who walks away. Am I happy about this ? no not at all can I change this? realistically no I cant. It falls into the category of one of the downsides of life here but I can honestly say it is a small price to pay to be here in what I consider a great place to visit. BillM I agree if I needed to have a hand gun on my side to feel safe I would move that thankfully is rarely the case. I have a better chance of shooting a bear than I do an intruder. Art
irishfield Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Well put John. I thought they were just for carving pumpkins, which is a novel way of teaching an entire family how to carve just a bit more off the eye. Absolutely a senseless tragedy at another school by what is probably another Youtube brain washed sole.
dave524 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Pov of someone who was there and actually was concealed carrying http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/ His approach was the spot on. A handgun is a defensive weapon and he stated he was quite a ways from the shooting. You defend your position and those around you , you don't play Rambo, going up against an semi auto rifle with a concealable handgun is foolhardy to use a kind word.
bow slayer Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 well i truly believe this has little to do with guns and gun control laws. Something has changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years. Gun laws have changed greatly over those same years,so in point guns were probably more easily available 20-30 years ago and this type of event happening a lot less frequently. Today it seems to be sadly a weekly event. It seems like the same story everytime, some young person who feels like he does not fit in,maybe a little different,not a lot of friends,desperate to be accepted. How much pressure is on the young people of today to have a sense of belonging? With social media who some of these young people seem to truly believe the world revolves around,selfies,facebook,twitter,like,...the pressure to feel liked and popular has to be tremendous. Add in some of the parenting today,the helicopter parents,protecting them from everything in life,doing everything for them does not prepare them for the real world. They need to succeed but also learn what it is like to fail and learn from it. I fear this will continue and increase with or without tighter gun laws,society needs to change. Yes the guns did kill these kids but they do not fire or load on their own. It is hard for me to believe that it has to come to this for some of these people,but then again I grew up in a different era
ecmilley Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 well i truly believe this has little to do with guns and gun control laws. Something has changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years. Gun laws have changed greatly over those same years,so in point guns were probably more easily available 20-30 years ago and this type of event happening a lot less frequently. Today it seems to be sadly a weekly event. It seems like the same story everytime, some young person who feels like he does not fit in,maybe a little different,not a lot of friends,desperate to be accepted. How much pressure is on the young people of today to have a sense of belonging? With social media who some of these young people seem to truly believe the world revolves around,selfies,facebook,twitter,like,...the pressure to feel liked and popular has to be tremendous. Add in some of the parenting today,the helicopter parents,protecting them from everything in life,doing everything for them does not prepare them for the real world. They need to succeed but also learn what it is like to fail and learn from it. I fear this will continue and increase with or without tighter gun laws,society needs to change. Yes the guns did kill these kids but they do not fire or load on their own. It is hard for me to believe that it has to come to this for some of these people,but then again I grew up in a different era The very real problem today is time. No time for a kid to be taught to fish ir huntt respect nature and outdoors. To easy to tune into the net and be brainwashed by some radicals.
spincast Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Follow the money? from an article looking at the financial elements of this situation "NRA membership dues skyrocketed by a staggering 62% in the year after Sandy Hook, from $108 million to $176 million. Total revenue in 2013 hit a third of a billion dollars..... As a result, the massive organization saw profits — excuse me, “surpluses” — rocket 2,750% to $57 million....... The NRA top executives shared that year in a treasure chest of more than $8 million in salary, bonuses, nontaxable benefits, deferred pay and other compensation — a nice payout for an organization that enjoys charitable exemption from U.S. taxes. LaPierre alone made a million bucks a year, which is, ironically, equal to about $100 for every man, woman and child murdered with a gun in America......" http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-nras-profit-soars-as-deaths-from-gun-massacres-mount-2015-10-02 and "According to the “Full Year Financial Guidance Report” for 2013, issued by Remington’s parent company, Freedom Group, on December 9, the arms manufacturer is predicting the following results for the year: Net sales for the year ending December 31, 2013 to be in the range of $1,250.0 million to $1,275.0 million as compared to Net sales of $931.9 million for the year ended December 31, 2012. Adjusted EBITDA for the year ending December 31, 2013 to be in the range of $235.0 million to $240.0 million as compared to $156.5 million for the year ended December 31, 2012. (EBITDA is essentially net income with interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization added back to it, and can be used to analyze and compare profitability between companies and industries because it eliminates the effects of financing and accounting decisions.)"http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/12/18/gun-manufacturers-profits-year-following-sandy-hook/ That kind of money buys a lot of lobbying, spin and political power. Perhaps the place to start to change the situation is with those whose profits increase each time one of these tragic situations occurs?
OhioFisherman Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 Sandy Hook hasn't been the only issue, we have some pretty deep political, racial, and religious divides in our country, and some seem to use those to drive fear. Our President maybe the best thing that ever happened to the gun industry here? https://www.quora.com/How-has-the-quantity-of-annual-gun-sales-changed-since-President-Obama-took-office You can go on a lot of websites and see things like Obama is going to take our guns, restrict ammo sales, restrict magazine sizes, you didn't hear that here with other Presidents. There is still a sizable segment of our population that believes he is a Kenyan or Muslim. He has faced resistance since day one in office by a large segment of our population because of it. Political fear mongering to maintain or regain control? We are a nation founded on revolution? and some are still at war?
spincast Posted October 3, 2015 Report Posted October 3, 2015 all very valid comments - the question is why do those beliefs exist? What do the majority of surveys show with respect to the new universal health care introduced in the US? If asked specific questions about the services provided by the Universal Health Care policy, without naming it, the overwhelming majority support it. If asked the same questions about Obamacare, the overwhelming majority say it is a useless wasteful un-necessary expense... an article on some aspects of it here. http://prospect.org/article/we-hate-obamacare-what-it-does How does that dichotomy exist? Money, political power, advertising, spin. Someone else wants power, and there is no point too low for them to stoop to gain it. The ability to shape public opinion through media manipulation cannot be overstated. Motivated self interest backed by significant cash reserves is an effective method of realizing an agenda. All that is required for evil to triumph, is for good people to remain silent. Act as you must to live out your reality, but if people stay silent in the face of lies and falsehoods, then the outcomes will be reflective.
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