Any thoughts on Canadian Health Care System?

[Steve]

if you have a serious need, you get treated immediately.

 

just some folks feel every need is a serious need.

 

i have a seizure disorder (not epilepsy, no one knows really whats wrong).

 

however, when i was having seizures i had access to ct scans, mri's (multiple), eeg's, ecg's, etc.

 

they thought i had a serious life threatening situation.

 

once they confirmed i was not going to die, i was put down to the bottom of the line. no one cares anymore what is wrong with me.

 

but i feel thats ok, because when they thought i was going to die, they treated me like gold...

 

yes, if i lived in the states, and was willing to pay, i would maybe be looked into further.....but now, i'm on meds, and told to get used to it....

 

and I am....

 

i was lucky to learn i was not going to die....and had multiple tests to confirm it.....

[mcdougy]

My wife is a RN in the Critical Care trauma centre (intensive care) here in London. She was bedside for 17 years in CCTC and recently moved to be a coordinator of this same department. Health care is a daily topic for us. Sometimes heated between us. Here is some interesting thoughts for some. I have seen my wife 8 times on Christmas Day in the last 17 years. She wakes at 5am and out the door by 6:15am , returning home by 8pm at the earliest if on day shift. She is wiped out when she gets home. When on nite shift she would get home at 8 am and get to bed at 9:30ish am because these where her mornings to spend with the kids then wake at 3 pm to get kid from school. It was. A 2 week day/ nite rotation also working every other weekend. Needless to say to some, we passed through the door with a kiss a lot of days. NP . sacrifices were made by us both and that's what life is about. Sometimes I would be envious that her devotion to her job was supersedeing ME and the family. She is there for a reason, she likes/wants to help people. Many of her days become very emotional with the family of the sick/dying. She cries a lot at work due to passion to fix/help. A lot of cases are tragic and almost always unexpected for the families. She is payed very well for this and should be. Her retirement is bright. I think it is a general regard by nurses that many doctors could be a lot better/smarter. Here in london, the hospitals are teaching facilities for the university of western. She comments on how money is wasted due to the teaching element. She claims "they" are willing to try many extra procedures/drugs in order to keep someone technically alive. Sometimes these procedures lead to life support equipment in order to carry them out. Once a person is "hooked" up , the end can be endless. Prolonged ends are very expensive. Also there are many times when a doctor is ready to stop further procedures and it is the family who wants "everything" done. Some people refuse that the "end" has come. Once the hospital/staff is told do everything, they must. Many drugs cost thousands of dollars , operations in the tens of thousands, CCTC is one nurse to every patient, the cost of a bed per day without anything is very high in her environment. And we as people are sometimes "running" the bill up to astronomical values. As a coordinator she now experiences how few resources there are throughout the system. Mainly staff. The government is trying to hire less qualified people at a lower cost, which helps in some situations, but hinders in a lot more. Quality of care can suffer and wait times. I voice my opinion as a taxpayer often with her. She often agrees, and says with a system so big "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". As far as emergency rooms go, we have all been there and can see what "appears" to be going on. Patients waiting, some staff working hard, some staff "petting the dog" . In reality we have NO idea what's going on and causing the wait time and the staff have their hands tied because they can not get a patient out of ER to another bed because their is no staff available in another department. The cardiac department is "full" the ortho dept. is "full" the medicine floor is "full"....... This is why you wait. The poor guy comes in having a heart attack. ER staff is obligated to treat him first(access and stabilize) The ER does this and calls the cardiac unit to accept the patient. They cannot because they are full. The cardiac unit is full because they have a patient that is ready to go to "the floor" or medicine dept. The medicine dept is full and cannot accept the cardiac patient. And so on and so on. And you sit and wait for many hours with your not so "important" problem, while the ER staff has to tend to the guy with the heart attack that's not moving because there is a staffing problem.

 

We all get sick and hurt, and generally we all get better. Unfortunately wait times and the hospital system is more than likely not going to improve any time soon unless even more money is spent on it. I know I feel I don't want to pay more taxes than I do now. So the equation is much larger then fixing health care with less money.

Family doctors is a evolving scene also. I'm yet to decide on wether it is heading in the right direction. I seem to have to go for several appointments for some simple things. I'm sure they are getting paid per visit. As a tax payer I'm on guard to this philosophy. My mechanic fixes several things at once..just sayin. But I truly do not know the pay breakdown from ohip to my doctor.

[Paudash]

My daughter has Lime disease and because of this great system we have in Ontario I have been paying between $15000-$20000 a year after tax dollars for the past 3 years for her to be treated in the states. The Ontario system is good as long as you are not sick. We call the doctors in the states and no wait times, it is what time is good for you

[Rustic-Fisher]

My wife is a RN in the Critical Care trauma centre (intensive care) here in London. She was bedside for 17 years in CCTC and recently moved to be a coordinator of this same department. Health care is a daily topic for us. Sometimes heated between us. Here is some interesting thoughts for some. I have seen my wife 8 times on Christmas Day in the last 17 years. She wakes at 5am and out the door by 6:15am , returning home by 8pm at the earliest if on day shift. She is wiped out when she gets home. When on nite shift she would get home at 8 am and get to bed at 9:30ish am because these where her mornings to spend with the kids then wake at 3 pm to get kid from school. It was. A 2 week day/ nite rotation also working every other weekend. Needless to say to some, we passed through the door with a kiss a lot of days. NP . sacrifices were made by us both and that's what life is about. Sometimes I would be envious that her devotion to her job was supersedeing ME and the family. She is there for a reason, she likes/wants to help people. Many of her days become very emotional with the family of the sick/dying. She cries a lot at work due to passion to fix/help. A lot of cases are tragic and almost always unexpected for the families. She is payed very well for this and should be. Her retirement is bright. I think it is a general regard by nurses that many doctors could be a lot better/smarter. Here in london, the hospitals are teaching facilities for the university of western. She comments on how money is wasted due to the teaching element. She claims "they" are willing to try many extra procedures/drugs in order to keep someone technically alive. Sometimes these procedures lead to life support equipment in order to carry them out. Once a person is "hooked" up , the end can be endless. Prolonged ends are very expensive. Also there are many times when a doctor is ready to stop further procedures and it is the family who wants "everything" done. Some people refuse that the "end" has come. Once the hospital/staff is told do everything, they must. Many drugs cost thousands of dollars , operations in the tens of thousands, CCTC is one nurse to every patient, the cost of a bed per day without anything is very high in her environment. And we as people are sometimes "running" the bill up to astronomical values. As a coordinator she now experiences how few resources there are throughout the system. Mainly staff. The government is trying to hire less qualified people at a lower cost, which helps in some situations, but hinders in a lot more. Quality of care can suffer and wait times. I voice my opinion as a taxpayer often with her. She often agrees, and says with a system so big "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". As far as emergency rooms go, we have all been there and can see what "appears" to be going on. Patients waiting, some staff working hard, some staff "petting the dog" . In reality we have NO idea what's going on and causing the wait time and the staff have their hands tied because they can not get a patient out of ER to another bed because their is no staff available in another department. The cardiac department is "full" the ortho dept. is "full" the medicine floor is "full"....... This is why you wait. The poor guy comes in having a heart attack. ER staff is obligated to treat him first(access and stabilize) The ER does this and calls the cardiac unit to accept the patient. They cannot because they are full. The cardiac unit is full because they have a patient that is ready to go to "the floor" or medicine dept. The medicine dept is full and cannot accept the cardiac patient. And so on and so on. And you sit and wait for many hours with your not so "important" problem, while the ER staff has to tend to the guy with the heart attack that's not moving because there is a staffing problem.

We all get sick and hurt, and generally we all get better. Unfortunately wait times and the hospital system is more than likely not going to improve any time soon unless even more money is spent on it. I know I feel I don't want to pay more taxes than I do now. So the equation is much larger then fixing health care with less money.

Family doctors is a evolving scene also. I'm yet to decide on wether it is heading in the right direction. I seem to have to go for several appointments for some simple things. I'm sure they are getting paid per visit. As a tax payer I'm on guard to this philosophy. My mechanic fixes several things at once..just sayin. But I truly do not know the pay breakdown from ohip to my doctor.

Well written , wife is an RN at sick kids and has worked in oncology for the last 12 years.

Though she loves the job , she's done with the politics and is a year away from finnally becoming a nurse praticioner and moving forward in a role she feels is critical for the future .

[manitoubass2]

A little off topic but to those with loved ones doing these duties, how does it effect your partner, you, your family???i have to imagine it strains families, and mentally that must be soooo tough to deal with traumas all day. Like does it effect their mentality, similar to say... War veterans?

[okumasheffield]

Greatly appreciated feedbacks from RN fellows or with RN spouse.

 

I, for one, just like other members, have never complaint to front-line healthcare givers, in fact, heros.

 

Yes, every system has its flaws and the reason why we rant is because we care, we care about this country and

want it to become better in all aspects.

 

I quickly googled 'rank of health care system' to find out Canada is No. #30 of 191 countries in WHO (World Health Organization).

Not trying to throw other countries under the bus but I was completely shocked by some. (please see it yourself).

 

IMO, I do not mind higher taxes if it grants everyone in ER to be seen by GP in 5mins.

 

Everything in life can wait but patients in pain.

For those who say they do not mind waiting, are liers, or they have not been serious pains yet.

 

No one will stay healthy forever, and it will be just a matter of time to 'do your share of ER wait time.

 

Once again, KUDO to health care givers and wish someone(s) can make this a better place.

[chris.brock]

If people stopped using the ER as their personal Dr, the wait times would be drastically reduced. Also, if you are waiting for hours, then you are low on the priority list and need to question if you even need to be there.

 

^ this sums it up. find a gp or a walk in.

without saying something I shouldn't concerning what I've seen here in the GTA, what you guys are saying has crossed my mind quite a few times

 

even a visit to a walk-in, costs the tax payer so how about this- a small fee to see a doc (ER, walk-in, GP, whatever), maybe $15, some people exempt (seniors, welfare people, etc)

 

maybe some people with a sniffle would just have some chicken soup instead of going to the doc

 

it will cost me when I do go to the doc, but hopefully I won't pay as much tax to cover all the snifflers going to see the doc

 

 

edit- reading what Dan said below, and seeing my father-in law get sick and die in FLA,

it could be a lot worse up here

Edited April 6, 2014 by chris.brock

[danc]

Last I heard was that 47000 Americans die each year because they have no health insurance. This was revealed in a debate between a Canadian doctor and an American congressman. I wish I could find the link to the video. It was awesome. Anyways we should count our blessings. Apparently life means more than money does in Canada than it does in America. And I like that.

[mcdougy]

A little off topic but to those with loved ones doing these duties, how does it effect your partner, you, your family???i have to imagine it strains families, and mentally that must be soooo tough to deal with traumas all day. Like does it effect their mentality, similar to say... War veterans?

 

It's called the "nurse curse". They have seen and heard of all the strangest, horrific scenarios people are dealt, and try to protect their family from it. My wife suffers bad. Bless her soles and soul.

For me the strangest thing is sometimes questioning if I should give her that kiss and hug in the doorway because she's been "exposed" for the last 13 or so hours to all that sickness. I know it's wrong but still can't help but wonder what's crawling all over her.

Edited April 6, 2014 by mcdougy

[Big Cliff]

This is an exceptionally good thread with some great information and well thought out responses!

[Roy]

Last I heard was that 47000 Americans die each year because they have no health insurance. This was revealed in a debate between a Canadian doctor and an American congressman. I wish I could find the link to the video. It was awesome. Anyways we should count our blessings. Apparently life means more than money does in Canada than it does in America. And I like that.

Is this what you're looking for, Dan? There's a video of the conference at the bottom of the page. Go to the 59 minute mark for the Canadian content

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/richard-burr-canadian-expert-health-care

[Rustic-Fisher]

Our family is loaded with mainly Cops, and one Firefighter and my wife the nurse.

Dinner conversations can get interesting and sometimes we forget to filter a lot of stuff thus causing some pretty shocked faces for those not exposed to the good ,bad and especially funny stories we've seen .

It's definitely a stress reliever for my wife and a stress causer for some LOL.

Wife doesn't wear her scrubs home, and I usually don't wear my stuff home either, We re both paranoid of the kids catching something so I can relate to the "nurse curse" LoL

[Canuck2fan]

I watch a TON of documentaries on health care from lots of different countries and there is no system in the world that doesn't have LONG wait times in ER, I think the staffing issue is just a small part of the problem. The overwhelming cause of delays are the friggin idiots who come in who DO NOT need to be there. That being said some of those are there because they have no choice for care because they don't have GP. I was one of those people for about 6yrs and went to the ER ONCE, during that period, and vowed the next time would be if ONLY if I was taken in against my will So I find it utterly insane to go through the hassle of going to an ER unless you are so close to dying you no longer care what happens to you LOL.

 

Another part of the problem with wait times that isn't often discussed publicly is how often staff can't face the day so they call in sick. Leaving areas scrambling to find enough staff to cover the duties required. I say this because I have a few family members in both the nursing and long term care fields who get 4 to 5 extra shifts a month EVERY MONTH many of them at overtime rates. When other employees call in with anal blindness (saying sorry I don't see my a$$ showing up today) It is ironic how so many studies show that in business if your employees are calling in sick a lot you have a sick working environment and you should fix it, yet this falls on deaf ears in health care.

 

While I have nothing but the highest respect for all the front line people I have met in health care, I have seen a lot of areas where management is way too entitled. It is pretty sickening to cater many a lavish board meeting, where the clowns in suits are deciding over a very expensive lunch, whose hours to cut on front line services, or hear them talking about how to spend 1000.00's to attract 100.00's in donations....

 

As for seeing some specialists, yes the wait times are too long but anybody who thinks having a private system in Canada will shorten them for any meaningful number of people is deluded. I say that because of simple math. There is no way a country with our population (lack of) density could support anything resembling what the rich Americans in large population centers enjoy with respect to speedy service. Also everyone on here seems to be forgetting the US has one of the most expensive health care systems in the world and they don't seem to be enjoying better outcomes because of it (link below).

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-countries

 

If you check into it down there, there are vast areas that are under serviced as well because it is simply not going to be as profitable for the same type of quick health care to be available in a town of a 8,000 as there is, where there are more people than that in a few blocks.

 

So yeah maybe in certain areas a private system here could give a very select few faster better service. The reality is though, if those people have the 1900.00+ (typical cost in the US for FULL top of the line health care packages from some who SELLS them) to spend a MONTH, on extra health insurance for a family of four. Then we should let em buy a US policy or even a Mexican plan, (lets keep it Nafta which has been so good for us so far) and deduct it on their taxes as a health care expense, and charge them no fees for a passport as long as they have the health care policy in force. Then they can just take a vacation down south and get their care there. To me doing that shortens the waiting line here even more, because those people won't be in line here anymore, they will be on a medical holiday and getting away from winter while they are at it. WIN WIN for everybody concerned.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Canuck2fan

[bigugli]

The public's perception of our health care system is full of myth's, misconceptions, stereotypes, and plain naivete.

I spent 10 years at what was once called TGH as a clerical and administrative assistant. In the off hours, I was part of a small administrative team responsible for keeping the wheels turning for the other hours of the day when the suits and paper doctors are not present.

To start with, Ontario does not run our hospitals. They fund them, and then leave it to the hospitals boards of directors to spend the funds wisely. When a hospital goes over budget, they freeze OT, and close beds, but you never see management take the hit. A department may get shut down, but the dept head always seems to have a job.

Did you know that TGH originally had a 1600 bed capacity? In my 10 years I watched 6 wards completely shut down and beds removed. At the time I was downsized out, capacity was around 750 beds. Lots of new research clinics and offices, because that is where the big dollars are. It's all about the politics of funding.

As for wait times, well the Moose's story sound typical for even 20 years back. Patients are prioritized based on severity of need. On top of that, not every Emerg bad is available for Emerg patients awaiting treatment. You have the admissions backlog and bedspacers. Patient stacked up in the hallway on gurneys waiting for a bed in a ward. Then all you need is one patient to code, and one MVA trauma to roll in the door, and all your resources will be tied up for at least the next 2 hours.

Meanwhile life in the rest of the hospital is no better. JC is suddenly doing another prototype transplant tying up 2 OR's for the next 12 hours. While additional transplants are quickly being fed into the OR for additional transplants made possible by the sudden availability of a donor. Which means I have to find ICU beds and additional ICU staff before the next shift start. The trickle down is that some of the more stable ICU patients get bumped into general wards earlier while still hooked up. More skills nurses are needed to look after them. Meanwhile, the wards now have a gurney or 2 out in the hallway by the nurse's station.

While all of this is going on, the hospital is already short 10-12 skills nurses and 30 other RN's for the next shift. Outside agencies and overtime can't fill the holes. At one point I had 2 skills nurses in the system who were so valuable that they had not been able to take a vacation in 2 1/2 years. The hospital would not pay to increase the number of staff with their specific skill sets. It took the ministry's direct involvement to forcibly sideline one for 3 weeks. I have stayed many an extra double shift to sit and watch over disoriented patients so as to free up a nurse whose skills were better put to use caring for a number of patients.

In short, the issues are manpower and money. There are people in the health system earning $1/2 million P.A. and more, who never get there hands dirty in health care. Hospital wards are converted to clinics and offices. Meanwhile actual patient care is overcrowded and understaffed. The money can be better spent. Just how that can happen is lost on me. I don't think another layer of government supervision will make any difference. Just another group of bureacrats adding to the cost of the system.

As I said before, I was downsized out in the mid 90's. Best thing that could have ever happened to me. To be honest, we were already at the point where patients had already become nothing more than objects, not people. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

Edited April 7, 2014 by bigugli

[ch312]

If people stopped using the ER as their personal Dr, the wait times would be drastically reduced. Also, if you are waiting for hours, then you are low on the priority list and need to question if you even need to be there.

 

It doesn't happen very often, but I totally agree with Bill.

 

Long wait times means you really don't need to be there. If you do actually need emergency care you will see a doctor, or at least be put in a room, as soon as you get there. But, try telling that to people who think a runny nose or a scratch means a trip to the ER and think they should receive treatment first simply because they were first in line. I know two ladies who have worked in the ER (10 years, and 23-24 years) and they say the hardest part of their job is dealing with the people who think every little issue requires a trip to the ER. Apparently they aren't allowed to send people home without seeing a doctor due to liability no matter how minor the issue might be. But, they can definitely make them wait to encourage the whiners to go home...

 

 

I think the best solution is to reduce taxes slightly and have a set fee for seeing any doctor. In the end it would cost us (well, those who work and pay taxes anyways) the same, yet people would be discouraged from visiting their doctor or the ER for minor issues that don't even require treatment.

Edited April 7, 2014 by ch312

[BillM]

We better mark this down man! LOL!!!!

[ch312]

We better mark this down man! LOL!!!!

 

LOL...we may have very different opinions about various topics, but I would still go fishing with you any day.

[Renegade67]

I believe this is quite an emotional topic for many.....

If you have patience or can endure your problems our health care system, though far from perfect, will treat you well. One of the larger hurdles is just getting in. Many cite issues with our emergency rooms and patients being there that don't belong. This is true but some don't have a choice.

I know when my mother was in the big C fight and needed to be treated we had no alternative then to gain access by way of the emergency room. This is how we were instructed by our family doctor. Then this elderly and quite sick lady had to sit in emergency for 12 hours just to get access to a gurney that was against a wall in the hallway. It was not until well into the next day they finally obtained a room/bed for her. This did not sound like an isolated case. I will add that when she did get into the system she was treated quite well by both nurses and doctors of the oncology department. She was given a 15% chance at survival and we're blessed to still have her with us to this day. She recently celebrated being 5 years clear! She is one tuff old bird!!

My brother moved to the US 25+ years ago and carry's extended health coverage. He had a nagging sore back and was advised to get a cat scan. Well within 4 days had the scan, they operated on him, removed 2 vertabrae (he had a tumor attached to them) and installed rods, pins, etc.. I could not believe how fast their system works, but of course you need good coverage. He currently is in one of their best C hositals on the west coast and just received a bone marrow tranplant as part of his treatment. He has 3 brothers but none of us were a good match but luckily they found two in there database! Yup, pretty darn lucky! There was a point though when all funding ceased. It seems there is some number that once you cross you need to re-justify your claim. It did hold him back a bit but with a lot of help and support from his wife and doctors he was able to get the funding back for his continued treatment. I don't know how one, if alone in that fight, would regain support. There were hoops to jump through. We have discussed his treatment and it appears the hospitals that he has used have been extreamly well equiped, and offer the latest in treatments. In comparison our public hospitals appear to be juggling to stay afloat and have numerous shortages. With our ever growing population how long can good ppl keep a broken system working?

 

Many thanks to those who work in our healthcare system!

[okumasheffield]

Immigration to other countries with health care system ranking ahead of Canada is the only way out of this!

[Slop]

Yeah I went to the ER...broken bones and a fat lip to be stitched up once in awhile. All you guys here never expect to have cancer. I know I didn't. The system took great care of me and still does..

[moxie]

Still a viable topic eh?

 

Anyone ever question why its called the "Health Care System"? How many healthy people are there in any given hospital or doctors office? Its a life support system.

 

How often are scripts written for vitamins and/or minerals that have been proven over decades to work in stemming or reversing the negative effects of many illnesses? Exactly. Docs aren't paid for those.

 

Heart and other organ transplants, limb reattachments and other medical advancements......BRILLIANT would be the word I would use when I think of the medical proffession in that sense. Anything other than that, not so much.

 

How many doctor endorsed commercials and marketing campaigns promote health through diet and and nutrition?

 

Why do you and I get sick? We never really ask that do we? We just assume the doctors have the answers.

 

A healthier diet combined with excersise would most certainly keep more of us out of the medical loop longer and therefore reduce wait times, unecessary treatments and the overall burden on any system. wouldn't it?

 

But how much money would the medical conglomerate stand to lose out on if that happened? We can throw all the money we want at it but it isn't goint to make us healthier. Only we can.

 

We are the only ones that can change health care because those firmly intrenched in it don't want it to. They believe their way is the only way and in mant facets of medicine they might be right but if we do everything we possibly can to avoid being sick in the first place wouldn't that help us all ?

 

Health Care? Say it over and over in your head and ask yourself what those words should really mean.

 

Just a thought.

Edited April 8, 2014 by moxie

[BillM]

 

LOL...we may have very different opinions about various topics, but I would still go fishing with you any day.

 

How about a bit of hunting? I could use some tips

[Moosebunk]

Going into college and university our kids have solid fundamentals in english, math, science and arts... but not health, wellness and illness. Not at all. PhysEd & Sex Ed don't cut it anymore. So many people their entire lives lack a basic understanding of the one thing that is more important than anything else to each of us, living the healthy life. Our system is used so heavily these days in great part because of this lacking education. It would be very helpful if during the senior years of highschool, mandatory courses could be taught which study topics such as common injuries, illnesses and diseases, and wellness too. Walking students whom have already learned some fundamentals in biology/anatomy, now into a basic pathophysiology through to symptoms, diagnosis and treatments common to health and care.

 

This would...

Empower people (and society) when they would otherwise feel most vulnerable.

Help those recognize their true need for the system.

Promote preventative and healthier lifestyles.

 

 

Maybe rather than looking to fix any existing problems of a system sadly destined to worsen due to population growth, costs, time and increasing need, we prepare to make more of our people need the system less.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Moosebunk

[Headhunter]

Really interesting thread and thanks to those who have provided insight...

Like so many other things in life, it seems to me that money is the driving factor. We have heard here about how money or lack of it has caused so many problems.

Then, I think about the multi-billion dollars spent on E-Health with virtually nothing to show for it. I think about the billions spent in this provincve to cancel a project, again, with nothing to show for it.

So, it seems to me that there is actually plenty of money to go around, it's just not going around to the right places.

That is a government problem, not a "Health Care" problem.

HH

[Sinker]

Really interesting thread and thanks to those who have provided insight...

Like so many other things in life, it seems to me that money is the driving factor. We have heard here about how money or lack of it has caused so many problems.

Then, I think about the multi-billion dollars spent on E-Health with virtually nothing to show for it. I think about the billions spent in this provincve to cancel a project, again, with nothing to show for it.

So, it seems to me that there is actually plenty of money to go around, it's just not going around to the right places.

That is a government problem, not a "Health Care" problem.

HH

Bingo! The government of this country is going to take us all down. I'm ready.

 

S.