Such a terrible thing.

[woodenboater]

19 minutes ago, mikeh said:

I wonder if they are going to make changes to the intersection?

you can bet they're going to consider making it an all way stop. and overhead flashing light and/ or rumble strips. also if there's not already one there, a sign warning of a stop ahead.

[lew]

I think I posted way back around the beginning of this thread that I saw a women...I think a meteorologist...being interviewed on TV and she was saying the sun was bright and was at a very low angle at the time of the crash and he would have been driving straight into it.

Just my thoughts but I have a feeling that may have been why he didn't see the stop sign & I doubt there's anyone anywhere who hasn't driven into the setting or rising sun and still figured they were OK. 

I honestly do believe though that this was nothing more than a terrible tragic accident and I don't believe a long harsh jail term will really do any good.

I'm certainly not condoning what happened but just giving my opinion but I've certainly been wrong before.

 ++++ Edit to add I also seem to remember one of the news reports saying there was a flashing red light by the stop sign ++++

Edited July 11, 2018 by lew

[crappieperchhunter]

Never understood the concept of roundabouts...until a few starting popping up around here.  PITA the first few times I used them but easy peasy now. Throw a round about in at that intersection or any other intersection that has similar problems and this will NEVER happen again.

 

[grimsbylander]

12 minutes ago, crappieperchhunter said:

Never understood the concept of roundabouts...until a few starting popping up around here.  PITA the first few times I used them but easy peasy now. Throw a round about in at that intersection or any other intersection that has similar problems and this will NEVER happen again.

 

I wouldn't say never. If that was the first time he'd driven through that area how would he know there was a round about? If he missed the stop sign with a flashing red light, would he have seen the round about or plow right through? I'm not sure how a round about compensates for someone that didn't see the intersection?

[crappieperchhunter]

15 minutes ago, grimsbylander said:

I wouldn't say never. If that was the first time he'd driven through that area how would he know there was a round about? If he missed the stop sign with a flashing red light, would he have seen the round about or plow right through? I'm not sure how a round about compensates for someone that didn't see the intersection?

You can not go straight through at a roundabout..the center is all cement. And if they built the roundabout with the whole center actually being a say 3-4 foot high cement barrier...high enough for everyone to notice...but low enough for everyone to see over, it would be safer still....IMHO.

No solution is perfect but I think this one would be  a very good option.  At the end of the day we have all made mistakes while behind the wheel. 30 plus years ago I was turning left at a stop sign onto a 2 lane each way highway. Coming back from a round of golf with some work mates to go pick my wife up at work. 100% sober...never had a drink. In a hurry because I'm running late...I just zoned out when I approached the intersection. Slowed down and then just turned left onto the highway. Screeching tires brought me out of my trance...as a car zoomed by me on my right. Turn just in time to see the driver giving me the death stare as he zoomed by. If it was a one lane each way highway I'm sure we would have both been dead because he would have had no choice but to hit me. I think of this EVERYTIME a story like this bus crash comes up.  We all make mistakes. We don't always get away with it without consequences.

[grimsbylander]

3 minutes ago, crappieperchhunter said:

You can not go straight through at a roundabout..the center is all cement. And if they built the roundabout with the whole center actually being a say 3-4 foot high cement barrier...high enough for everyone to notice...but low enough for everyone to see over, it would be safer still....IMHO.

No solution is perfect but I think this one would be  a very good option.  At the end of the day we have all made mistakes while behind the wheel. 30 plus years ago I was turning left at a stop sign onto a 2 lane each way highway. Coming back from a round of golf with some work mates to go pick my wife up at work. 100% sober...never had a drink. In a hurry because I'm running late...I just zoned out when I approached the intersection. Slowed down and then just turned left onto the highway. Screeching tires brought me out of my trance...as a car zoomed by me on my right. Turn just in time to see the driver giving me the death stare as he zoomed by. If it was a one lane each way highway I'm sure we would have both been dead because he would have had no choice but to hit me. I think of this EVERYTIME a story like this bus crash comes up.  We all make mistakes. We don't always get away with it without consequences.

I agree with this. It was the NEVER statement earlier I didn't quite understand. The UK has a lot of round abouts and they have their share fair of accidents too. The bottom line is, when the human brain is in control, crap is going to happen...regardless of how many precautions are put in place. The problem with rounds abouts is, once you enter them, you have the right away and tend to not concern yourself with vehicles approaching. Plus you're looking/steering around the inside of a circle and away from vehicles approaching on your right. I wouldn't want to get smoked between a vehicle that came in full tilt and that 3 foot cement wall either. Accidents are called accidents for a reason I guess.

[crappieperchhunter]

I meant never in the sense that the visual aspect of seeing a roundabout from a great distance as this would have been...would have at least made the driver slow down.....so a collision would have been avoided or at the very least at a much slower rate of speed. However you are correct, some of us dumb humans will always find a way to mess things up. So there is really no such thing as never.

[dave524]

IMHO there is nothing wrong with this intersection, it is the same as thousands of other intersections where a side road crosses a main thoroughfare in rural Canada. Bottom line is some one screwed up and a bunch of kids paid the price.  Let's install rumble strips at every stop sign in the country in that case,  what do they say ?? " you can't fix stupid ". But they will throw some money and effort at fixing it for appearance sake.

Edited July 11, 2018 by dave524

[DRIFTER_016]

2 hours ago, crappieperchhunter said:

You can not go straight through at a roundabout..the center is all cement.

And this guy says "hold my beer!!!"

 

 

[dave524]

we had roundabouts over 50 years ago, OI will remember the one at the QEW and 20 HWY. Navigated it a many times early in my driving career.

[chris.brock]

There's an uphill stretch of the 401 heading west near Kelso that if the sun is setting on a clear day, traffic pretty much comes to a stop because it's hard to see.

That's what drivers have to do if they can't see. 

I saw the interview of a  parent who was following the bus at the time of the crash and he said the sun wasn't a factor. He was actually there and not some meteorologist surmising stuff in front of a camera.

 

 

[RickOnt]

Yes  The sun in my eyes  Is a Bull excuse,

If you are running down a highway with a fully loaded rig and you can't see   you better slow down,

and absolutely for sure slow down if you are unfamiliar with the road. 

[BillM]

10 hours ago, chris.brock said:

There's an uphill stretch of the 401 heading west near Kelso that if the sun is setting on a clear day, traffic pretty much comes to a stop because it's hard to see.

That's what drivers have to do if they can't see. 

I saw the interview of a  parent who was following the bus at the time of the crash and he said the sun wasn't a factor. He was actually there and not some meteorologist surmising stuff in front of a camera.

 

 

To play devils advocate here, how does someone driving a completely different way say the sun wasn't a factor?  If you don't have the sun directly in front of you sure it's not going to bother you at all, lol.

[grimsbylander]

36 minutes ago, BillM said:

To play devils advocate here, how does someone driving a completely different way say the sun wasn't a factor?  If you don't have the sun directly in front of you sure it's not going to bother you at all, lol.

I thought the exact same thing and let's face it, if I were a parent and saw that, there would be NO acceptable excuse....and I can't say I blame them one bit.

[Terry]

a terrible thing

but i have ran through a stop sign and a red light  no excuses , just some how didnt see it.  so that could be me or many other people i know

[BillM]

I'm sure we've all had brain farts when driving, I know I have.   What sucks is the result of this guy not paying attention/being blinded by the sun/whatever.   

[Old Ironmaker]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, OhioFisherman said:

Compared to some other alleged non profit charities the  percent actually going to the people in need is pretty stellar?

That's the reason we have a local Golf Tourney every Labour Day weekend and give 100% of the $$ raised to the person we have the fund raiser for whatver they wish.8K last year. 10 years ago I found out that the CEO of Juvenile Diabetes Canada If I recall was making around 2 million a year, yea right non-profit! Non profit my butt.

Oh this site is driving me nuts, nothing seems to work, please Blue *16, Mayday, 911. We had 2 "Traffic Circles near where I gre up in Hamilton, the bottom of Flock Road and Kenilworth S. and at Queenston Rd. and Main St. I caouldn't count how many in southern England and other places across the World. They work there, why not Canada. Can you spell paradigm shift reluctance? 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Old Ironmaker

[Old Ironmaker]

There are 3 different types of driving, City, highway and country. City is gridlock driving, highway is gridlock driving 120K, then there's country driving, speed limits, flashing reds and yellows and stop signs are "suggestions". Our county, Haldimand, has less than 50,000 citizens, not all drive. We don't have a 400 100K max highway  It seems weekly there are fatalities on our roads. A Selkirk stop is to look as far down the road and just blow through. I don't even see the person in front tapping the brakes on, many times, more like all the time unless traffic is coming. It's as dangerous as driving the 401 bumper to bumper doing 125KPH. Many stops here like the corner of Fisherville Rd. and Indian Line, RR3, the intersection has a 30 to 40 degree angle to it. You have to face the oncoming lane at a big angle to get  sight line. If you don't, and many don't you are playing chicken. No one but Grand Pa Hoover does less than 110, and me. I get the finger doing 95. Mostly from truckers that do business at Nanticoke Refinery or Stelco. They think they are on the QEW or 400 series. I bet its the same in rural Sask.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Old Ironmaker

[grimsbylander]

7 hours ago, Old Ironmaker said:

That's the reason we have a local Golf Tourney every Labour Day weekend and give 100% of the $$ raised to the person we have the fund raiser for whatver they wish.8K last year. 10 years ago I found out that the CEO of Juvenile Diabetes Canada If I recall was making around 2 million a year, yea right non-profit! Non profit my butt.

Did you think that individuals that work for non-profits org work for free?? LOL 

[SirCranksalot]

In my area there are 3 or for successive 4 way stops  followed by 1 that is not 4 way. The 'experts' are puzzled as to why there are so many accidents at that intersection!!!

 

[chris.brock]

12 hours ago, BillM said:

To play devils advocate here, how does someone driving a completely different way say the sun wasn't a factor?  If you don't have the sun directly in front of you sure it's not going to bother you at all, lol.

That's a valid statement.

I still think he gave a bull crap excuse. From my driving experience, it's a pretty small window, with the right conditions, in the morning and evening when the sun is blinding. And when the sun is blinding,  you can't see anything. So if he was flying along blinded by the sun, he's a careless idiot.

[grimsbylander]

10 hours ago, chris.brock said:

That's a valid statement.

I still think he gave a bull crap excuse. From my driving experience, it's a pretty small window, with the right conditions, in the morning and evening when the sun is blinding. And when the sun is blinding,  you can't see anything. So if he was flying along blinded by the sun, he's a careless idiot.

Those are also valid points. It is however possible that the stars aligned and the conditions existed. And also possible, and more likely, that he is a careless idiot.That's the strange thing about this situation...the excuse that is being offered supports a greater degree of carelessness? It's one thing to simply just not see another vehicle, we're all done it...it's another to say I was perfectly aware of the fact I couldn't see a damn thing, yet proceeded without hesitation. Are we not taught to drive to the conditions? Snow, traffic, fog, SUN...this determines speed, not the little signs along the road. Still tragic and will remain a mystery.

[woodenboater]

be very curious to know if the trucking company had a dash cam on that rig.

[BillM]

1 hour ago, woodenboater said:

be very curious to know if the trucking company had a dash cam on that rig.

That video should never be released if that's the case, and from what I've read, the trucking company consisted of two trucks, not a big company at all (Which has also gone out of business)

Pretty sure it was the drivers cousin that owned it?

[OhioFisherman]

1 hour ago, woodenboater said:

be very curious to know if the trucking company had a dash cam on that rig.

Just my experience with trucking companies, and I worked for a number of them over a 30+ year driving career, they didn't normally have anything on them that the law or a union contract didn't require. I seem to recall seeing that that company had a total of two trucks? They were probably lucky to keep tires on them?