Mass shooting in Florida--NF

[aplumma]

First, we can't talk about how to achieve something without first agreeing we want to achieve it. So far, I don't hear any Republicans saying there's even a problem.

 

Second, I am not an expert on gun control or public policy. I recognize this and defer to those with more experience. Perhaps an expanded background check system would help. Perhaps we need to go further. But we can't even discuss options because Republicans have their fingers in their ears while singing Mary had a little lamb.

 

In my opinion doing nothing is not an option unless you actually want more massacres. And in my opinion, the rights of the 49 not to be murdered outweigh the rights of Mateen to have guns. So if you're going to err, I would suggest it's better to err on the side of the victims than the perp.

You are not erroring on 1 person you are erroring on every single person in the legal system. He is by definition at the time was a suspect not a felon when he bought the gun. I can make you a suspect with a phone call unfounded or not. I am not happy he got the guns I wish he did not get a gun but so far no one has come up with a viable solution either here on OFC or the whole United States. I personally think a unicorn will be found first.

 

 

Art

[Dutch01]

You are not erroring on 1 person you are erroring on every single person in the legal system. He is by definition at the time was a suspect not a felon when he bought the gun. I can make you a suspect with a phone call unfounded or not. I am not happy he got the guns I wish he did not get a gun but so far no one has come up with a viable solution either here on OFC or the whole United States. I personally think a unicorn will be found first.

 

 

Art

I believe no one has come up with a viable solution because there are two parties at the table and only one wants any change at all.

 

As for your analogy, you are right but if we say it's the rights of all gun owners not just Mateen, then it's not just versus the 49. It's gun owners versus the 33,000 Americans killed by guns every year.

 

Let's talk rights. The Declaration of Independence provides American citizens with the inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness;"

 

Over 11,000 people are murdered with guns every year in the USA. Those people were deprived of their right to live. Are their rights less important than your Second Amendment rights?

 

I ask this out of a sincere desire to understand the reasoning behind your opinion. I am not trying to single you out or pick on you in particular. You have stood your ground and argued your opinion rather eloquently. Even if I disagree with your conclusions, I respect that.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Dutch01

[Old Ironmaker]

My mid west {southern Illinois} far right wing GOP member Conservative, carries Ronald Reagan's photo in his wallet, Bible toting, gun toting, NRA representative fantastic Uncle that I love dearly once asked me to look at what was in his glove compartment. I may have told this story before. I asked "Zio, what is this?" as I looked at this beautiful Glock with a Laser sight. "Well Napute, that's my Can gun.

You know for Mexican's, Jamaican's, Porto Rican's."

 

And he is proud to spew what I believe to be evil. Even tough I love him dearly talking to him is like talking to an Alien from a different planet as compared to talking to Canadians. This is a person whom someone is going to have to pry his guns from his cold dead hands. This issue of who, what, when, where and why someone is going to dictate to a high percentage of the American public what weapons they can or can not own will not be settled in the next 100 years and certainly not on a internet fishing forum even though it is interesting to say the least.

 

Please keep in mind all of the victims that have lost their lives and the countless people this tragedy has effected for the rest of their lives. Cheap jokes and nit picking does not shed a good light on ones character here and am very surprised at some members out of character comments, not good guys.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Old Ironmaker

[tomkat]

Let's face it nothing will ever change down there. Start the countdown till the next mass shooting. Millions of those weapons in the hands of sane responsible gun owners until they aren't.

[Gnote]

My condolences to the families affected by this tragedy.

I have no urge to wade into any of this but i will say that the PAL is a joke at best, they make no phone calls, they dont check references, they dont talk to your spouse its ridiculous.

They care more about your picture being signed then they do about your mental state.

You could literally Bull your way into a pal no question, so long as you dont have a criminal record.

[aplumma]

I believe no one has come up with a viable solution because there are two parties at the table and only one wants any change at all.

 

As for your analogy, you are right but if we say it's the rights of all gun owners not just Mateen, then it's not just versus the 49. It's gun owners versus the 33,000 Americans killed by guns every year.

 

Let's talk rights. The Declaration of Independence provides American citizens with the inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

"We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness;"

 

Over 11,000 people are murdered with guns every year in the USA. Those people were deprived of their right to live. Are their rights less important than your Second Amendment rights?

 

I ask this out of a sincere desire to understand the reasoning behind your opinion. I am not trying to single you out or pick on you in particular. You have stood your ground and argued your opinion rather eloquently. Even if I disagree with your conclusions, I respect that.

The root of my opinions is justice or the rights of people to be innocent before being guilty. As you read further into it is the right to justice to be considered innocent until proven guilty. If he had not died then he would face the justice system that would have been found by his peers either guilty or innocent and while it does not bring back the dead it would be justice. We are still at the point of lets say tomorrow all guns are illegal (can't happen) but now that with a wish and a wave of the wand no new guns are made. Every law abiding person turned theirs in now who still has guns? Well half of the law abiding citizens will and all of the criminals will be armed. Now that you know before hand that guns have disappeared in the US and you want to be a terrorist you will either bring your own or find a bad guy who will sell you his. You have a better chance of outlawing cars that pollute and kill before guns will disappear.

 

There is nothing that guarantees the right for people to have access to alcohol. The number of deaths has to be higher than 11,000 people between medical deaths, car accidents, over indulging, and poor judgment. No one will outlaw alcohol because 51% of people want it. The penalty to non drinkers or rational drinkers is extensive financial burdens especially in Canada with the government collecting huge amounts of taxes to cover it. Ask yourself will alcohol be outlawed for the good of the public in Canada? (rhetorical)

Is it possible ? {Think prohibition in the US} All nations have issues that are unsolvable ours is guns since Canadians know the ins and outs of Canada I think it is better for you to name your secret poison.

 

Just to reiterate I am not happy with the way guns are regulatedto give you an insight into my mind, I took an oath when I joined the Navy

 

 

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

I still believe in those words to fight for freedom of the oppressed to be guided by the laws of the country to enforce the written laws put before me by my superiors. The law is the point change the law legally in a manner that the citizens have voted in then all of my guns or alcohol or whatever the people decide will be followed. The new health care system in the US is so wrong on so many levels (which I will NOT answer or debate)BUT was voted in by the masses so I abide by it. I as you all are doing here in a polite and thoughtful way (thank you) will be doing my darndest to eliminate what I see as a major flaw in our system.

 

Art

[SirCranksalot]

A little perspective.

[Fishwilly]

I just caught a bunch of crappies

LOL ....I'm with you bud. Enough is enough.

[DRIFTER_016]

I'm off to the cabin on vacation for 6 weeks starting next Tuesday.

Maybe I'll have to take my .22 and a crap load of ammo and have some fun when not building.

Might even have time to catch a fish or two.

[aplumma]

A little perspective.

What a great example of what I have been saying if 51% of the people wanted them they would be on the shelves.

 

 

Art

[Dara]

First, we can't talk about how to achieve something without first agreeing we want to achieve it. So far, I don't hear any Republicans saying there's even a problem.

 

 

 

 

What is the problem you want to solve

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dara

[grimsbylander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

[BillM]

I'd rather ban religion then guns.

[Dutch01]

What is the problem you want to solve

Not sure if serious.....

[Dara]

Not sure if serious.....

I am..I don't believe the problem is guns. if it was the population of the USA would be 1

 

Other than just plain old criminal activity shootings, of which Toronto is seeing plenty of action lately, the problem is mental health.

 

You have to be nuts to be a mass murderer and we have to get better at seeing it coming.

With 300 million people, thats a tough go.

 

You can take guns away, but not in the US and mass murderers will still find a way.

 

Might not hurt to limit magazine.clip sizes but if you really want to you can get anything

[Dutch01]

I am..I don't believe the problem is guns. if it was the population of the USA would be 1

 

Other than just plain old criminal activity shootings, of which Toronto is seeing plenty of action lately, the problem is mental health.

 

You have to be nuts to be a mass murderer and we have to get better at seeing it coming.

With 300 million people, thats a tough go.

 

You can take guns away, but not in the US and mass murderers will still find a way.

 

Might not hurt to limit magazine.clip sizes but if you really want to you can get anything

All good points. I don't disagree with you, addressing a lack of mental health care funding would go a long way towards curbing these mass shootings. Probably further than gun control. But Americans are afraid of "socialism" so I don't see them doing anything about metal illness anytime soon.

 

I happen to also think that more stringent background checks could augment mental health treatment as a part of a holistic solution.

 

I'm not against a guy like Art having as many guns as he wants. I get that there are many many law abiding citizens who will never use their guns in anger. However, I refuse to believe we can plan to fly men to Mars, but we lack the collective intelligence to stop (or at least diminish) these mass shooting events.

 

The fact that Republicans can't even have a conversation about curbing mass shootings without accusing everyone else of sedition should be a source of shame.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dutch01

[Hedfish]

In my opinion doing nothing is not an option unless you actually want more massacres.

 

I hate this kind of rhetoric. You are basically implying "if you are against a gun ban, you actually want more massacres". It's a very cheap approach to arguing and, unfortunately, it's being used way too often.

 

I assure you, no one on this board wants more massacres. Some of us, however, think that doing stupid expensive things that will achieve very little besides making a large part of population angry is stupid.

 

Think long gun registry in Canada. This is the kind of stupid populist solutions that don't really solve anything except wasting money and delusion people into thinking all is well now, our government is on top of things.

 

As far as I see, on this board, your opponents don't say "Nothing needs to be done, everything is peachy". They say "Something needs to be done but we haven't seen anything effective and thoughtful proposed so far".

 

But hey, who cares about thinking. Let's just keep repeating "Strict gun control laws will prevent mass shootings". Like they prevented Toronto Eaton Center shooting in 2012 or Norway shooting in 2011.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Hedfish

[Hedfish]

All good points. I don't disagree with you, addressing a lack of mental health care funding would go a long way towards curbing these mass shootings. Probably further than gun control. But Americans are afraid of "socialism" so I don't see them doing anything about metal illness anytime soon.

 

It has nothing to do with Americans being afraid and socialism.

 

Talking about mental health, hate crimes, etc. doesn't win any votes. Talking about guns does, doesn't matter if it's pro- or against. That's why this circus never ends. None of the current politicians are actually interested in solving the issue, all they care about is getting a bit more votes every time a shooting happens.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Hedfish

[Dutch01]

 

I hate this kind of rhetoric. You are basically implying "if you are against a gun ban, you actually want more massacres". It's a very cheap approach to arguing and, unfortunately, it's being used way too often.

 

I assure you, no one on this board wants more massacres. Some of us, however, think that doing stupid expensive things that will achieve very little besides making a large part of population angry is stupid.

 

Think long gun registry in Canada. This is the kind of stupid populist solutions that don't really solve anything except wasting money and delusion people into thinking all is well now, our government is on top of things.

 

As far as I see, on this board, your opponents don't say "Nothing needs to be done, everything is peachy". They say "Something needs to be done but we haven't seen anything effective and thoughtful proposed so far".

 

But hey, who cares about thinking. Let's just keep repeating "Strict gun control laws will prevent mass shootings". Like they prevented Toronto Eaton Center shooting in 2012 or Norway shooting in 2011.

This is the kind of post that contributes nothing to the discussion. You don't know what I imply, you only know what you infer. You've called my arguments cheap, my ideas stupid, and you've done so with a heap of sarcasm, all while proposing no solutions of your own.

 

You're entitled to "hate" anything you want. That's really neither here nor there to me. What I'm saying is that doing nothing is the surest way to get more of the same. Do you have any argument to the contrary?

 

What I'm hearing (not just on this board but elsewhere online) are excuses why we should do nothing. I'm hearing "not if it affects me". I'm hearing "I don't like your ideas so I will attack you as a traitor to the Constitution". You're obviously hearing something different.

 

That you reference shootings in Canada is laughable. If you want to compare the incidence of mass shootings between Canada and the USA you are going to lose every time. We don't have these shootings at anywhere near the frequency they do, even when adjusted per capita.

 

I also didn't see a proposed solution in your post so from where I sit you've brought nothing to the discussion but insults and sarcasm. If you feel I've misjudged you let me know. I'm always open for discussion. I'm just closed for lectures.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dutch01

[Dutch01]

It has nothing to do with Americans being afraid and socialism.

 

Talking about mental health, hate crimes, etc. doesn't win any votes. Talking about guns does, doesn't matter if it's pro- or against. That's why this circus never ends. None of the current politicians are actually interested in solving the issue, all they care about is getting a bit more votes every time a shooting happens.

I do believe Americans are afraid of socialism. I have heard it from several of them, and it's why Sanders will never be President.

[dave524]

 

Might not hurt to limit magazine.clip sizes but if you really want to you can get anything

 

You might like to know that a lot of legal 5 round mags in Canada are simply 20 or 30 round mag with a pop rivet reducing capacity to 5, you are on a honour system to not drill out the rivet or you are instantly a criminal, actual criminals don't think twice about removing them. Kinda like the three shot plug on a shotgun for migratory birds.

Edited June 16, 2016 by dave524

[Dara]

 

You might like to know that a lot of legal 5 round mags in Canada are simply 20 or 30 round mag with a pop rivet reducing capacity to 5, you are on a honour system to not drill out the rivet or you are instantly a criminal, actual criminals don't think twice about removing them. Kinda like the three shot plug on a shotgun for migratory birds.

evil grins

[glen]

The USA is winning the war on terror.

[Dutch01]

There will never come a day when the POTUS announces that the war on terror is over. Even if it were true, its too convenient to keep it around as a justification for any of the things they want to get us to accept.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dutch01

[Hedfish]

I also didn't see a proposed solution in your post so from where I sit you've brought nothing to the discussion but insults and sarcasm. If you feel I've misjudged you let me know. I'm always open for discussion. I'm just closed for lectures.

Nah, I'll just leave this discussion. This thread just proves that there is exactly zero sense in discussing this kind of topics on the internet. No one here is interested in changing their points of view, some of us don't even bother to read what is actually being posted by others, so yeah... Pointless.

 

No offense. Oh and sorry if any of my posts sounded insulting, I swear it wasn't intended.

 

I would rather go watch a video comparing the Frog and Sunfish LiveTarget lures.