Going solar????

[Big Cliff]

After the recent power outages I decide to look into getting an automatic whole house generator for our place. The gas one we have now would get us out of trouble in a pinch but the idea of having to get out there in the middle of the night in a storm to fill it with gas and things isn't quite going to cut it for me any more.

 

I priced out an automatic propane 8kw system and installed it would cost me about $7000.00 plus service every year. While I think it would be a good investment, it just isn't in the budget right now. It might be different if we were younger but we aren't.

 

Then I started thinking about the idea of solar panels on our roof. Being right on the lake with exposure to the sun from early morning right through until sunset I am sure would be an advantage. There is also our garage which is 1000 sq ft and it also has exposure from early morning to sunset.The other thing is that we will probably be getting our roof redone this spring or summer; can I kill two birds with one stone here and perhaps come out on top?

 

Apparently there are programs in place where the cost of it would be totally covered but how would it affect the existing roof (shingles) would they have to be replaced first?

 

What about the extra weight of the solar panels; would the roof have to be braced? I do realize that the solar panels wouldn't supply power at night or if covered with snow and ice but at least there would be power during day light hours for the most part.

 

I wouldn't have to worry about a generator that doesn't want to start or filling it up with gas. I wouldn't have to worry about running out of propane if the outage was extended for any period of time. and if I didn't have to lay out about 4-5 thousand $ to reshingle out roof that would be a bonus!

 

Have any of you got one of these solar systems or looked into them in detail? Any feed back would be very much appreciated!

 

 

 

 

[woodenboater]

Have seen a few houses that have panels on the roof and if you found a program that covers the cost of the panels, you're lucky. I think there was a FIT program but wasn't aware of any in Ontario that covered the the entire cost, all in. If there is, I'd be all over it like flies on you know what

 

PV panels aren't cheap and could run a homeowner over $30k plus the storage batteries and I think it's basically a given that you may not see any return, financially, for quite a number of years ((25+). In your case, having reliable power during blackouts is more important so that's worth more than a ROI.

 

Curious, there shouldn't be much work involved with an LP powered back up generator unless I'm missing something. A huge pig should ease your worries about running out propane as well. But as you mention, cost is another matter of course .

[Big Cliff]

Well, the propane system with the transfer panel, installed was $6806.00 taxes in and that is only an 8kw system (it would run all the basics). The problem with the big propane tank like Lew has is that it has to be at least 15' from a property line or building which means that it would have to be in the middle of my yard, do able but not exactly the sort of thing I want sitting out on my front lawn.

 

As far as battery storage is concerned, I have a couple of options that wouldn't interfear with our living space.

 

Here is a link to one site I found: http://pure-energies.com/

 

and here is a statement from their website that "leads me to believe" there is no investment required on my part. Is this one of these "if it sounds too good to be true it probably isn't true" things?

 

Earn Income

2

With no upfront cost you can earn up to $90,000 over 20 years. Enough for your child's tuition, travel or reno’s.

[woodenboater]

ok, a quick read of the 'lease' program shows it's FIT. You will not have any batteries as far as I can see so you'll still be tied into the grid and when that goes down...

 

from their FAQ No batteries are incorporated. The system is connected directly to the grid. Think of it as a miniature renewable power plant feeding the grid.

 

so maybe a closer look at propane powered generators is in the cards ? I think if one has the right property and is not tied into the system, solar and wind would be my choices, esp if one is on waterfront

 

​re:propane tanks. can't remember if it was on this site or another but one option that would need to be explored could be burying the LP tank. Not sure on bylaws or safety of such so due diligence would be required.

Edited January 8, 2014 by woodenboater

[lew]

 

Well, the propane system with the transfer panel, installed was $6806.00 taxes in and that is only an 8kw system (it would run all the basics). The problem with the big propane tank like Lew has is that it has to be at least 15' from a property line or building which means that it would have to be in the middle of my yard, do able but not exactly the sort of thing I want sitting out on my front lawn.

 

Cliff, I only payed $5800 including installation, transfer panel and taxes for a 10,000 watt unit and that is more than enough for my home. It easily runs my furnace, water and sump pump, fridge and freezer, lights, computer and TV's and my garage plus just about anything else I need. I've tested it several times turning everything on and it does just fine. I asked them if I should bump up to a 17,000 watt system and was assured it wasn't needed.

 

Call the Generator Center in Peterboro...705-931-0938

 

Great folks to deal with.

 

My neighbor just revamped his home and wanted a big 1500 litre tank like I have but was told the same as you, that it needed to be away from the house, but he was able to get 2 smaller tanks set right beside his house. I'm not sure what size they are....maybe 400 litres each ??

 

I deal with Kelly's propane and their great. They delivered and installed my large tank and hooked up the propane lines for free and I only pay something like $2 per month for the rental.

Edited January 8, 2014 by lew

[Big Cliff]

 

Cliff, I only payed $5800 including installation, transfer panel and taxes for a 10,000 watt unit and that is more than enough for my home. It easily runs my furnace, water and sump pump, fridge and freezer, lights, computer and TV's and my garage plus just about anything else I need. I've tested it several times turning everything on and it does just fine. I asked them if I should bump up to a 17,000 watt system and was assured it wasn't needed.

 

Call the Generator Center in Peterboro...705-931-0938

 

Great folks to deal with.

 

My neighbor just revamped his home and wanted a big 1500 litre tank like I have but was told the same as you, that it needed to be away from the house, but he was able to get 2 smaller tanks set right beside his house. I'm not sure what size they are....maybe 400 litres each ??

 

I deal with Kelly's propane and their great. They delivered and installed my large tank and hooked up the propane lines for free and I only pay something like $2 per month for the rental.

Call the Generator Center in Peterboro...705-931-0938

 

That is who I got to quote me on my system Lew, actually I was surprised that the quote was as high as it is because there is already a propane line to within a couple of feet of where the generator would go and the hydro panel is right on the oposite side of the wall so labour would be minimal. They are quoting me $5400 for the generator, $600 for instalation, and $806.00 in tax.

[Big Cliff]

ok, a quick read of the 'lease' program shows it's FIT. You will not have any batteries as far as I can see so you'll still be tied into the grid and when that goes down...

 

from their FAQ No batteries are incorporated. The system is connected directly to the grid. Think of it as a miniature renewable power plant feeding the grid.

 

so maybe a closer look at propane powered generators is in the cards ? I think if one has the right property and is not tied into the system, solar and wind would be my choices, esp if one is on waterfront

 

​re:propane tanks. can't remember if it was on this site or another but one option that would need to be explored could be burying the LP tank. Not sure on bylaws or safety of such so due diligence would be required.

I don't know a lot about this stuff but even if the grid goes down would the solar panels not supply power to the house (assuming the sun is shining). We can easily do without hydro for about 24 hours at a stretch and would only need enough to cool the freezers back down, charge up some batteries, pump enough water to get us through another 24 hours.

[lew]

Call the Generator Center in Peterboro...705-931-0938

 

That is who I got to quote me on my system Lew, actually I was surprised that the quote was as high as it is

 

OK Cliff, looks as if the price has really taken a huge jump in the 24 months since I had my system installed.

 

Wish I had more to offer you.

[woodenboater]

I'm not an electrician but I would think the panels will NOT power your house in the event the grid goes down. I'm guessing it's a one way street from the solar panels to the utility. Whether or not a transfer switch could be installed to route to your box in the event the grid goes down, dunno, seems like it *could* be done. If I were in your shoes, I'd go propane and take the financial, short term hit.

 

Lew, how long will your genny run on a full tank of propane, running normal household usage ?

 

Cliff, your solar link is interesting to me and worth looking into as our cabin is off grid and I would like to tie into the system but SWMBO isn't keen on that. If the company will pay to bring a line in and set up the panels in that lease program, that could be a good way to get tied into the system without paying for the poles or underground trench but that's probably wishful thinking...

[lew]

Lew, how long will your genny run on a full tank of propane, running normal household usage

 

Wish I could answer your question but I honestly have no idea, although it's a huge tank so it should last quite awhile. Even if it did start running low I'd just have to call the propane supplier and they'd come top it off. They have their own generator system so that'd be no problem.

[OhioFisherman]

In bad weather, 3 - 4 days of snow, rain, overcast skies? Would solar panels actually be able to power much of anything in an emergency?

 

Depending on your home getting on the roof to clean snow off of solar panels? Could get interesting?

[fishnsled]

That does seem high Cliff. Maybe order the unit from Home Depot and hire a gas guy and an electrician to hook it up. 17000 watts is $4146 with the transfer switch. Not sure what other extras are needed but might be worth checking out as another option. Warranty and service might be a concern down the road, not sure.

 

 

http://www.homedepot.ca/catalog/standby-generators/171118

Edited January 8, 2014 by fishnsled

[Roy]

Propane consumption for a generator in approximate numbers:

7kw - 1.47gph or 135k btu
10kw - 1.93gph or 177kbtu
13kw - 2.18gph or 200k btu
16kw - 2.51gph or 230k btu
20kw - 3.44gph or 315k btu

[Governator]

Do you have a natural gas line available? That might be a better alternative, no?

[NightCrawler]

Big Cliff,

am finishing up my last semester for renewable technologies...a 3 year program is MORE than enough time to learn the concept of solar energy supply for a residential home.

My advice based on my experience;

Be careful with the company you choose to 'finance' your array. Dont be shy to call around and get consultations. There are many companies out there with loop holes to screw you over - trust me - that being said, there are also very good ones

Your roof will be fine, depending on the age of your home and its structural quality at the present time. The structural roof of any home is always engineered and built to handle large loads ( weight - from snow which is VERY heavy, rain, etc etc ) ...I have not heard of a residential home to this day who has had to have their roof restructured for a PV array ..but it can be so...usually the cost to get your roof structure assessed for the extra weight is included in the cost

Do your new roof FIRST then get a solar pv company to install a system

Choose a GRID-TIED system..meaning you sell your excess energy to the grid..this will increase your payback period. A good payback period for a residential pv system can be anywhere from 8-15 years. A pv system will also last you 25+ years if well maintained.

Upon that, it is very important that when or if you make the decision to install solar, you review your energy consumption in your home and look at ways to reduce vampire loads and lower overall consumption ( efficient lighting / appliances etc ) This will help down the road with your panels

A PV system on your garage roof to supplement your home roof structure is fine; but keep in mind SOUTH

I have talked to people who run solar pv companies, profs, engineers and even driven by homes with a system not facing south. All of them have talked about how the installation of a system on their projects that did not successfully achieve a south facing array did very poorly and cost the homeowner thousands in loss. Ask your self, Will the panels on my roof face south?

Most homeowners choose grid tied ( benefit from the MicroFit program in ontario - that being you system is 10kW or less, unless you live in a mansion that is all you need ) when the grid goes down, there is a device with your system that stops the electricity your panels are producing from entering the grid ( this is mandatory and is meant so that hydro workers working on repairing lines are NOT electrocuted by your feeding into the grid )

That being said, grid tied or not, you will have battery storage ( more $$ but worth it ) your pv company will come up with a number of days based on your consumption history of hydro, usually 2-4 days, this will help to 'size' the battery bank for your home. So if the grid goes down, you have power from your battery bank for that period only.

Its an investment, with a payback period, and an opportunity to make profit off it ( i believe the Microfit rate is now 0.55 cents/kWh ish down from 0.88 cents / kWh two years ago --- as the cost of panels decreases so does the incentive, the government isnt stupid unfortunately )

But do your research...you can learn everything i did online and via books.

Edited January 8, 2014 by NightCrawler

[woodenboater]

^^ wow, that was great info !

[Tomcat]

According to a data sheet on the Generac web site, the fuel consumption for a 14 kW system running at half load is 177 cubic feet of natural gas per hour. At 12 cents per cubic foot, that equates to $21 an hour. Same data sheet states that the fuel consumption for the same unit running at half load is 1.85 gallons or liquid propane per hour. At 70 cents per liter of liquid propane, that equates to $6 per hour. I was surprised to learn that it would cost 3 times as much to run on natural gas as on liquid propane.

[Governator]

According to a data sheet on the Generac web site, the fuel consumption for a 14 kW system running at half load is 177 cubic feet of natural gas per hour. At 12 cents per cubic foot, that equates to $21 an hour. Same data sheet states that the fuel consumption for the same unit running at half load is 1.85 gallons or liquid propane per hour. At 70 cents per liter of liquid propane, that equates to $6 per hour. I was surprised to learn that it would cost 3 times as much to run on natural gas as on liquid propane.

 

Yikes, forget my idea then lol.

[Big Cliff]

Big Cliff,

 

am finishing up my last semester for renewable technologies...a 3 year program is MORE than enough time to learn the concept of solar energy supply for a residential home.

 

My advice based on my experience;

 

Be careful with the company you choose to 'finance' your array. Dont be shy to call around and get consultations. There are many companies out there with loop holes to screw you over - trust me - that being said, there are also very good ones

 

Your roof will be fine, depending on the age of your home and its structural quality at the present time. The structural roof of any home is always engineered and built to handle large loads ( weight - from snow which is VERY heavy, rain, etc etc ) ...I have not heard of a residential home to this day who has had to have their roof restructured for a PV array ..but it can be so...usually the cost to get your roof structure assessed for the extra weight is included in the cost

 

Do your new roof FIRST then get a solar pv company to install a system

 

Choose a GRID-TIED system..meaning you sell your excess energy to the grid..this will increase your payback period. A good payback period for a residential pv system can be anywhere from 8-15 years. A pv system will also last you 25+ years if well maintained.

 

Upon that, it is very important that when or if you make the decision to install solar, you review your energy consumption in your home and look at ways to reduce vampire loads and lower overall consumption ( efficient lighting / appliances etc ) This will help down the road with your panels

 

A PV system on your garage roof to supplement your home roof structure is fine; but keep in mind SOUTH

 

I have talked to people who run solar pv companies, profs, engineers and even driven by homes with a system not facing south. All of them have talked about how the installation of a system on their projects that did not successfully achieve a south facing array did very poorly and cost the homeowner thousands in loss. Ask your self, Will the panels on my roof face south?

 

Most homeowners choose grid tied ( benefit from the MicroFit program in ontario - that being you system is 10kW or less, unless you live in a mansion that is all you need ) when the grid goes down, there is a device with your system that stops the electricity your panels are producing from entering the grid ( this is mandatory and is meant so that hydro workers working on repairing lines are NOT electrocuted by your feeding into the grid )

 

That being said, grid tied or not, you will have battery storage ( more $$ but worth it ) your pv company will come up with a number of days based on your consumption history of hydro, usually 2-4 days, this will help to 'size' the battery bank for your home. So if the grid goes down, you have power from your battery bank for that period only.

 

Its an investment, with a payback period, and an opportunity to make profit off it ( i believe the Microfit rate is now 0.55 cents/kWh ish down from 0.88 cents / kWh two years ago --- as the cost of panels decreases so does the incentive, the government isnt stupid unfortunately )

 

But do your research...you can learn everything i did online and via books.

 

 

You see, this is why I post questions like this on here, the answers are always informitive but then every once in a while you hit an answer like this! Truly awesome!

 

NightCrawler, you wouldn't happen to be going to school in the Lindsay/Peterborough area would you? If so I just might know of a place where you can fish to your hearts content in exchange for your knowledge on this sort of system! Oh what the heck, you'd be welcome to come fish here anyway LOL.

 

Lew, I guess it's like buying gas, prices come down when people don't need it as much but after this last round of stormes I guess demand has gone up. Just heard about a guy stranded in the Us in a storm, he went to get a hotel room, regular rate $129.00 a night but there was a line up in front of him. By the time he got to the desk to register the rate had gone up to over $300.00 a night. Apparently some lady bought bags of ice salt in Ajax drove them to Ottawa and sold them on Kijiji for $20.00 a bag. People like that should be shot! Anyway, lots of good information coming out of this and I really appreciate all the replies!

[Old Ironmaker]

I scrunched the numbers for solar about 10 years ago and would never see a return on investment and performance was hit and miss, especially in this winter when needed most. We haven't had any real sunlight here in weeks.

 

Generac Natural Gas at 14KW was $2800.00 and $500.00 install by a friend then and now anywhere between $3400.00 for 8K to $4000.00 for 14KW system. No fuss no muss, always have fuel as we have NG and no leaving the warm home to refill battling 60K winds, not me, no way. You have propane, I'd forget solar Cliff.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Old Ironmaker

[tb4me]

Cliff, I have a Miro FIT system on my roof. 3kw system. It wouldnt run my whole house if I wanted it to. As for the system itself its paid for in full from a company that rents my roof. After the 20 year contract I own the system, well whats left of it by then. There are many things to consider. The biggest factor to keep in mind is the winter. When we get all this ice and snow the panels wont generate any electricity... Secondly is the damn squirrels. They just love the solar panels they are constantly building nests under them and chewing the wires..This summer we had a hardware wire cloth installed around the entire solar array, they still found a way under and chewed a hole thru the shingles and were part way thru the sheeting and heading strait for the attic. According to the technician that was here, the squirrels are the #1 problem they didn't see coming..Its a major issue and be sure no matter who you decide to go with make sure they gaurentee any and all squirrel damages. . What a nightmare. Also your roof trusses may have to be reenforced. The company has to have a structural engineer inspect your truss system to be sure its strong enough to sustain the weight of the system and major snow load. If you have any further questions please dont hesitate to ask.. Im more then willing to answer what I can

[DRIFTER_016]

Cliff

To get a proper 8kw solar system you will be paying more than the cost of the generator installed.

Been doing lots of research as I'm going to be installing a smaller system to run my cabin with a generator backup to help recharge my battery bank during the darkness of winter here.

 

You can do a grid tied system which will pay you back $$$$ for power sold to the hydro company but you will need a transfer switch, battery bank, solar controller etc.......

For a proper system for your home you will be looking at double or triple the cost of the generator plus you have maintenance that you must perform on the batteries to keep them healthy.

 

Go with the generator if you only need it for backup power.

[tb4me]

Further to my earlier post..The FIT systems (as far as I know) are not switchable and you can not feed into your batteries. What they did here was install a green boot on the transformer that feeds the house. That way the hydro workers know there is a system running at that transformer. I have asked the company about having the panels power my house in case of power outage I was told no, sorry. So in order for me to do it id have to come out of pocket myself and run risk being sued for breach of contract. Its a long story but I don't recomend that company..They did my system and messed things up bad.. I sent you a PM with my cell # please by all means give me a call.

[Big Cliff]

Further to my earlier post..The FIT systems (as far as I know) are not switchable and you can not feed into your batteries. What they did here was install a green boot on the transformer that feeds the house. That way the hydro workers know there is a system running at that transformer. I have asked the company about having the panels power my house in case of power outage I was told no, sorry. So in order for me to do it id have to come out of pocket myself and run risk being sued for breach of contract. Its a long story but I don't recomend that company..They did my system and messed things up bad.. I sent you a PM with my cell # please by all means give me a call.

PM received and very much appreciated!

[Rod Caster]

I met some rural farmers who used their barn roof to sell power to the grid. Basically they financed the system, then sold the power to the grid for a much higher rate than consumer rate. They still have normal electricity bills, but they get even bigger checks for the power they sell and they got some Government grants. That covers their electricity and the financing and some income..... apparently, when the program started, they would build you a barn for FREE to install the panels. That program was eliminated years ago...I would have participated in that program in a heartbeat!

 

If you do a completely private system, you could have your own back up system. I'm sure you wouldn't need giant panels like you normally see, but I bet it's still a lot more expensive than a gas/generator system.

 

I wonder if a guy could sell solar power to people in the neighborhood and not connect to the main grid? Kind of a local/municipal power source? I guess that would be a BIG investment and probably impossible due to regulations and liabilities.