holdfast Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) This is a hard one. The Candy-man (Obama) puts in Billions into GM an American Company. Harper says he has no choice. If he doesnt there will definately be closures in Canada to the USA. For good reason I may add. Also if he doesn't it could lead to other repercussions. When you look at the big picture, what he put into GM was Aproximately $400,000 per working Canadian GM worker. As a side note, there were more layoffs in the Gas and Oil industry in Canada than the Auto Industry. Question, Was he right putting in the 10.5 Billion on Behalf of Canada. Edited June 2, 2009 by holdfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gbfisher Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 since when has Harper been right with anything................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siwash Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Well, if you're a fan of socialism, he was right... if this proves anything it shows that government is actually controlled by greater forces... unions and welfare capitalist conspired to see that their interests were served... How can you bail out a floundering company that has been spinning its wheel since the 1990's be justified? It would have made more senses to let it sink and pay out EI for an extended period... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoty Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 No way! Why is GM different than anyone else?? They made their own bed, and are complaining about sleeping in it now. Sure they are big..employ a lot of people...blah blah blah...but I know A LOT of people who have lost their jobs due to companies folding, but the government doesn't give a rats bum about them/us. I realize this ISN'T the fault of the employees, but they aren't helping matters either. Take your pay cut, and make $19/hr. You've been spoiled long enough. Plus...you're still making more than MOST Canadians. Heck...at least you'll still have a job! I have 2 degrees, which is 2 more than 99% of GM employees...and I cant find work! This whole thing is just sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRIFTER_016 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Here's a question, Where the heck is going to find 10 billion dollars to give GM?? Instead of giving away money we don't have try paying down our debt instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outllaw Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 on the short end folks say no. on the long term it will help. . showing all manufactures canada is open for business is whats needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbouck Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I rather they do that than sit back and say it is what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holdfast Posted June 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) You Guys are missing my point completely. The USA is Obviously doing their share, and putting their share into the Company. Its a done Deal. If Harper Doesnt, Dont Kid yourself, the USA will pull every GM Plant out of Canada. Yup and they are good at other things as Payback. Maybe Ford plants, CocaCola etc, Etc How about this then, Did he have a Choice, Was it the right choice? under the circumstances Lets not try to make this an election issue, as others also want to Spend, Spend. Edited June 2, 2009 by holdfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jediangler Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Won't matter anyway, they are still going to go under. Quality will now go down due to workers wages being cut and senior workers will have to do jobs previously done by younger workers so injuries will go up. All that money didn't help my job in the auto industry. Lowest seniority worker at my old plant started there in 1979. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POLLIWOGG Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 They are already paying the senior guys to stay home so a new guy can do the job cheaper. Like the accountant up the road said why should I pay for a GM workers divorce lawyer when I buy a car. They should have spent the money backing new technology, or just split the money up between laid off auto sector workers, at least that way the money stays in Ca. This will be a going away gift to GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookslav Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 How about this then, Did he have a Choice, Was it the right choice? under the circumstances Tough question, but a good one..... I'd be inclined to say politicaly speaking he did not have much of a choice. Damage to our trade relationship would not help our soaring dollar, or do much good for any spin off industry that is only now stabalizing, and adjusting to the new Cut back levels of commerce in the market. Also, The opposition parties are pushing it as well, so it then becomes fuel in the election proccess, and is another area to be poked at by the other parties. So no... I don't think he had a choice. But regardless I don't think its the right decision for the long term. Let the peices fall, and re-build on solid ground...this patch work bull pucky is the equivelent of fixing the Titanic with silicone and duct tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohhenrygsr Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 And now GM has sold Hummer to China. Great they can start to build there Army woot woot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschirk Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 The real concern I have now that they are getting my hard tax dollars (against my wishes), how do we get it back? Who in their right mind is going to buy a GM vehicle when you know their demise is inevitable and getting parts & service is only going to worse and more expensive...sure buy Canadian but from someone that at least has a future. And don't get me started on the $3,000,000,000 for their pension when most Canadians don't even have one! They should have liquidated and let a NEW company buy the assets and build Canadian cars that we WANT to buy. Free markets do work, socialism sucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullybass Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 With the American government holding a 60% share of the American company that controls GM Canada... how on earth would the American government let any jobs go to Canadians instead of Americans. Just my .02 cents but I think GM is going to be done in Canada by the end of 2010... other than trying to sell us cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Its definitely a sour pickle.....but i'm not sure Harper had much of a choice. Pretty substantial part of our economy (even if its shrinking). New US president to start a relationship with (on a potentially very bad note). PLus, to try to keep it afloat is going to cost WAY less than the pensions (that we're going to have to pick up on GMs behalf), so it was a risk worth taking (however small the likelihood of success). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greencoachdog Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Blah Blah woof woof! ... what're you going to do aboot it??? Go buy a 2010 Camaro... you'll score some leg with that thing for sure!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Up until now I thought we really had something good going in Canada. Too bad Harper's Conservatives turned out to be just another bunch of bottom feeding puppets. Disgusting on two counts. Throwing away our tax dollars to a bankrupt company and supoporting the provincial idiots with their harmonized tax grab. Too bad voting won't change a thing. They may be able to force us to give money to GM but they can't make us buy their junk....at least not yet.....nothing is beyond these scumbags. Edited June 3, 2009 by ChrisS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushart Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 This is a tough one cause it's not just GM it's the parts---the tires--the dealers--the steel ind etc. Frank Stronach was in Ottawa yesterday showing his electric car ready to be mass produced in 3 years---my opinion those billions maybe should have went Magna's way cause he's thinking about a MADE IN CANADA electric automobile. Those GM workers could maybe work there. Bailing out GM is the path of least resistance (believe it or not)--the Gov't does'nt have to think....new technology etc. It remains in office as angry laid off employees look elsewhere.--Not sure the forestry workers are thinking conservative now.---or the lobster fishermen--or the Sudbury miners or the steel workers or so on and so on... Finally--regarding investing in alternative fuels---the world is very much still driven on oil-----These companies have'nt invested trillions to be left on the sideline---GM helped them along for years. Bushart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12footspringbok Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Bad economics all around. Things like this are going to make this recession that much longer and painful. Oh did anyone read the article about two weeks ago on how part of GM's restructuring plans involves importing cars from China starting in 2011? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashhopper Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) The real concern I have now that they are getting my hard tax dollars (against my wishes), how do we get it back? Who in their right mind is going to buy a GM vehicle when you know their demise is inevitable and getting parts & service is only going to worse and more expensive...sure buy Canadian but from someone that at least has a future. And don't get me started on the $3,000,000,000 for their pension when most Canadians don't even have one! They should have liquidated and let a NEW company buy the assets and build Canadian cars that we WANT to buy. Free markets do work, socialism sucks... and about that pension i just signed up to pay for the GM employees... NOT! what incentive is there, now, for other large corporations to keep paying in to the pension funds? NONE... they dont have to worrry because you and I just lowered their over head and they KNOW the government of the day " won't have a choice" but to pony up, yet again ! Edited June 3, 2009 by splashhopper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Not at all happy about this. My biggest question is why did they decide that GM warranted bail out over other industries devestated by the ecomomic slow down. 800,000 people in the forrestry industry are out of work. How many oil workers... I would have let them slide. I agree with an earlier poster in that Magna has a plan for CANADIAN growth and our money should have been ear marked for them, but, lobby groups have way more power than individuals. I had high hopes for Harper when he took power, but at this point, he appears to be no different than any other politician covering their HH Man, we must be in trouble as a country... I find myself agreeing with Stoty! That's it, dogs and cats living togther in harmony... ARMAGEDDON I tell you... ARMAGEDDON! Edited June 3, 2009 by Headhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holdfast Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Up until now I thought we really had something good going in Canada. Too bad Harper's Conservatives turned out to be just another bunch of bottom feeding puppets. Disgusting on two counts. Throwing away our tax dollars to a bankrupt company and supoporting the provincial idiots with their harmonized tax grab. Too bad voting won't change a thing. They may be able to force us to give money to GM but they can't make us buy their junk....at least not yet.....nothing is beyond these scumbags. How does that answer my Question. Let me ask you then. So You think Harper who Represents Canada should of not put one cent into the Company, while the Americans put 30 Billion Plus. What if!!!! GM gets back on their feet as a smaller Company owned by whoever. Does that give them the Right or incentive to set up shop in Canada. What if they said No way Canada. What keeps Ford here. Then again we can always say to the USA, you pull out your Industry here, we will sell you no Oil. So Question is. DID He have a choice and was it the right one? I say he had no Choice as the American Government set the tone by Stimulating it on their behalf like it or not. We can now call it Government Motors. By the way. Mr Obama is dictating how a car will be made, so I'm Giving Government Motors low odds on making money as we all know, the government has a way of not making, but sinking money into anything. Edited June 3, 2009 by holdfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishnwire Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Did Harper have a choice? Not really. When has the Canadian government, particularily one headed by Conservatives, done anything other than bend over and take it from the Americans? We've seen that when it comes by "bi-laterial" agreements between the two, such as free-trade, that the more powerful of the two nations gets to enjoy all the rights while rarely having to maintain their responsibilities. We're like a fly on an elephant...they can do whatever they want and we have no recourse. They have methods of exerting pressure in countless ways. Can you say, "snowball effect"? A matter for another thread? Maybe, but it is relevant here. Just like depolyment of our military resourses, Ottawa never has to think too hard, the decission has already been made for them by Washington. That said, it probably won't work in the long-run. GM is doomed it seems...maybe they should have been allowed to die a natural death like a lot of other businesses are doing right now. Monday was the first day of my eight week "temporary" lay-off from the mine here in Sudbury. I'm one of the lucky ones...I will hopefully have a job to go back to. There are lots of guys in town who are on permanent layoff. Where's their bail-out? Part of the reason our government possibly should be on the hook for the pensions is because they allowed GM to raid that (previously) seperately held pension fund years ago. It's another example of how a previous government made a mistake which we are now all forced to deal with. Whoever it was who had the bright idea to lay a finger on the money in the first place should have his hands chopped off. As far as the workers taking massive paycuts to retain their jobs...why bother spending billions of dollars to save a bunch of mediocre jobs? I'd rather know that if we are going down this road, at least my tax dollars are supporting jobs that actually drive the economy, not just pay enough for people to get by. A lot of folks seem to think that whatever group of working people they don't belong to should "Get used to the idea of making less money." That's the wrong attitude. Our fathers and grandfathers worked and fought to establish the standard of living we enjoy...I don't want to be in a position where I have to tell my kids about the good ol' days when we only had to work 40 hours a week, could refuse unsafe work and had something called "minimum wage." None of us should be too eager to see our neighbour take a huge step back...if it's him today it that much more likely it will be you tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POLLIWOGG Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 To cut the sale of oil to the US is considered by them as an act of war, do you think we can take them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeXXington Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 He had a choice just not a politically viable one.. Says tough to Ontario and GM leaves lots of people out of work short term pain. not voted in.. Goes along with the US better relations let GM die a slow death can say at least he tried. There a are a couple things here, Will the new GM make better cars? How long before the union starts stiking again.. Thing about goverment unions is there is always more money out there. Name one goverment run industry that is not reaping us for high wages cause they can. Oh welll, goverment knows best and listen to the people the leasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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