Todays economy and strikes

[dp3200]

I have an idea. Instead of striking, why don't people go get a job that gives them what they are "worth". Oh - that's right - they aren't actually worth it.

 

To me striking is equivalent to sulking like a child that doesn't get what they want. Whatever happened to working harder to better your situation? There are all kinds of people that are way better off than teachers and they have never had to strike for it. They just do something that society values more.

 

I'm sorry, but it doesn't take much education to become a teacher. They are lucky to make what they do, because there are thousand of people with equivalent education less the ONE year of teachers college that can't get a job in their field at all. I have a sibling with MORE education than teachers and she works as a waitress. And doesn't cry about it.

 

If teachers wanted to make more money, they should have studied a bit harder and applied to Law, Business, or Medical school.

[cram]

I actually wish the teacher unions would dissolve. The good teachers would earn (way) more.

 

The downside is that the school system, and education your kids receive, would be driven by a free market system where the rich/desirable areas would get the good teachers, and visa versa. You'd create a class system that makes it very difficult for a kid in a poor area to get a good education and earn a great living later in life....does anyone really want that?

[Rattletrap2]

Muddler,

Amen Brother!

Very well worded and an intelligent point of view!

 

I don't exactly work in the public school system, but my eldest Daughters are both in the process of going through University to be High School Teachers. I'm seeing what they have to go through and put up with. I also have a Daughter that works for a Teacher's Supply store and can verify first hand that these teachers are supporting the classes and programs out of their own pockets.

 

Good and bad in every profession, but don't knock someone unless you have and are capable of walking in their shoes!

[Bernie]

You can say what you want about teachers and whatever else people do for a living. People that work are contributing to the values in our fine country. Yes there are times (like now) that even the good workers are unemployed. But many of us work hard and I am sure we all have our tales of how hard it can be. There were times starting up my business working seven days a week 16 hour days over the first 5 years.

But a strike now (by any union) I don't believe is a good plan. Sure will create lots of hard feelings. I honestly don't know how much teachers make but it isn't a pittance and they have some good benefits and pensions. If they are honestly concerned about the kids let them forgo a pay increase so the money could go towards the supplies required.

[cram]

You can say what you want about teachers and whatever else people do for a living. People that work are contributing to the values in our fine country. Yes there are times (like now) that even the good workers are unemployed. But many of us work hard and I am sure we all have our tales of how hard it can be. There were times starting up my business working seven days a week 16 hour days over the first 5 years.

But a strike now (by any union) I don't believe is a good plan. Sure will create lots of hard feelings. I honestly don't know how much teachers make but it isn't a pittance and they have some good benefits and pensions. If they are honestly concerned about the kids let them forgo a pay increase so the money could go towards the supplies required.

 

They already pay for the supplies required, out of their own pocket....after taxes.

[Bernie]

They already pay for the supplies required, out of their own pocket....after taxes.

 

Thats my point Cram. Would they forgo a pay increase if they no longer needed to do this?

 

So all teachers are putting money out of their own pockets? I could be wrong but somehow I doubt it.

[Marc Thorpe]

I dont recall ever seeing a self employed person call a strike for a pay hike!

Then again they dont depend or subsist on socially contributed tax payer monies

 

My kids have gone private school for most of their education

My youngest son (15) i still in private school,they start at 7 am in class and finish at 1 pm,then activities till 3 pm (in my sons case hockey) ,I gather I am getting what I paid for

My second oldest daughter opted for public study in law versus private,most of the times the classes last half the time they are designated. Classes are overloaded and are more of a auditorium type atmosphere!

Oh the teachers dont pay stuff ,I do and always have

 

The problems that exist in public schools are different to private schooling but the probs faced in public schools are in part created by themselves

 

60 000$ a year as a teacher,I think its above average income earning for most Canadians

I have little sympathy or pity for those who earn their earnings from constituent driven funds,generaly their wages are more than most

The irony is asking constituents for pay increase when contributing constituents are losing jobs thus lessening the contribution!

 

Not getting what you want so you striking is an option,in the private sector you would fired or out of a client!

 

There was a day when a person chose to teach and be in health care for the sake of teaching or administering health, seems these days those values no longer exist

Looks like some careers have lost self pride

[Terry]

a full time, full seniority elementary teacher now make ..92 K ...

principals now make over 100 K

[lew]

I'm not knocking teachers, or any other profession, but I've said for years that strikes that seriously disrupt the lives of other people shouldn't be allowed and there are other ways to settle contract disputes.

 

I think it's just insane when school boards, transit systems, garbage collectors, water services etc etc etc are allowed to walk out and totally screw up the lives of the very people that are paying their salaries.

 

A perfect example is the recent York University strike that screwed up the students for 3 months. It's basically over now, but alot of those students have lost their job opportunities for this summer and the money they were counting on for next years tuition.

 

In my job as a fireman we weren't allowed to go on strike, and the politicians would sometimes seem to use that to delay contract negotiations and force us into arbitration, but in the end we usually came out OK.

 

Were in the 21st century now and I think it's time we come up with a better solution to wage settlements that don't totally screw up the lives of all the innocent people that are caught in the middle of the disputes.

 

I always find it interesting that the politicians never have the money to pay the workers, but everytime THEIR contract comes up for re-negotiation, a bag of cash seems to drop from the sky.

 

 

Intersting discussion, I hope it doesn't turn bad.......

[OhioFisherman]

Teacher are generally better educated then the general public, 4 or more years of college isn`t cheap? Don`t you think someone you are trusting to educate your children should be to afford to live in the neighborhood they teach in?

 

In the states so things are probably a bit different. they not only have to be teachers, but cops, and moms and dads, because their parents either aren`t interested(unless little Johnny gets in trouble, then it`s my baby wouldn`t do that!) or don`t take time.

 

I delivered to a lot of schools in Cleveland, the teachers there should get hazardous duty pay, some had 3 or 4 cops roaming the halls.

 

Next door neighbors, both were teachers, I still is, cad/cam at the local vocational high school, he was in private business but took the job as a teacher at lower pay to be able to spend more time with his family, he has more than just teaching credentials, also an engineering degree. His wife stopped teaching to home school their children because she could give a better education with out the influence and distractions of other peoples kids.

 

Certainly a bad time to be in contract negotiations, but unlike politicians, businessmen, Wall street? The teachers don`t give themselves a raise, they have to bargain for it. You don`t bargain you fall behind, like most people with out unions.

 

Politicians belong to a Union (political party) doctors belong to a union ( American or Canadian medical association) businesses belong to unions ( chamber of commerce, Cose-council of smaller enterprizes) to negotiate for their best interests. Maybe they are just smarter?

[holdfast]

I'm not knocking teachers, or any other profession, but I've said for years that strikes that seriously disrupt the lives of other people shouldn't be allowed and there are other ways to settle contract disputes.

 

I think it's just insane when school boards, transit systems, garbage collectors, water services etc etc etc are allowed to walk out and totally screw up the lives of the very people that are paying their salaries.

 

A perfect example is the recent York University strike that screwed up the students for 3 months. It's basically over now, but alot of those students have lost their job opportunities for this summer and the money they were counting on for next years tuition.

 

In my job as a fireman we weren't allowed to go on strike, and the politicians would sometimes seem to use that to delay contract negotiations and force us into arbitration, but in the end we usually came out OK.

 

Were in the 21st century now and I think it's time we come up with a better solution to wage settlements that don't totally screw up the lives of all the innocent people that are caught in the middle of the disputes.

 

I always find it interesting that the politicians never have the money to pay the workers, but everytime THEIR contract comes up for re-negotiation, a bag of cash seems to drop from the sky.

Intersting discussion, I hope it doesn't turn bad.......

 

Amen, the New Saskatchewan Government put a lid on Striking Emergency Services. Two years ago the Road Services walked out everytime there was a snow Storm crippling the province. You should of seen the scare Tactics by CUPE when it was Obvious the Sask Party was going to win over the NDP. Funny how Teachers strike during our Kids Education, Postal workers before Christmas, Public Works in the Winter. Car Manafacturing, well whenever their Greedy. Gad, if they can get away with it, if there was a Union in the Army, they would strike while Canada is getting invaded.

[OhioFisherman]

There are forces always behind the scenes working against labor to increase their own excesses.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/27/b...n_n_161248.html

 

The less you get the more they can keep of themselves.

[Cudz]

I guess what I am asking????????????

 

Are you all in it for the money,or for the love of teaching?

 

Did ya all spend that collage/university fund thinking you were going to make millions back,or did ya spend it on seeing the satisfaction smile on those kids faces.

Never mind the dawg,he barks alot,bu tol yeller had his teeth pulled.

Money is NOT the issue that is the problem for these teachers.

It is equal time and working conditions as secondary teachers and safety issues.

Money is a third or fourth consideration.

 

I have many teacher friends and none of them want to strike, in fact all that I have talked to wanted to accept the offered contract. SOmetimes unions act without fully consulting their members. I know this. Secondary teachers were not even shown their new contract, terms and pay raise offer until after the union already turned it down. Every secondary teacher I knew wanted to agree to terms yet they somehow turned it down earlier in 08.

When they finally did get a chance to vote, they overwhelmingly accepted the terms.

THe union is strong and at time might not always represent the members.

 

Finally I would just like to thank the media. Of course the media makes it a money thing. Many teachers would accept 0% raise or even a pay cut in these times. It is funny how everyone gets mad about how much money teachers get paid and their time off.

 

If it makes you so mad then maybe you should have become a teacher. That is what I tell my friends who rag on teachers. Good pay, great holidays and benefits. Teaching is not for you?

Oh, ok, then maybe you shouldn't comment on things you can't do and leave it to those who can.

Just my opinion though

Remember there are always 3 sides to every story and the media only shows you one.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Cudz

[Cudz]

a full time, full seniority elementary teacher now make ..92 K ...

principals now make over 100 K

Not true.

Full Senority and experience and top level makes about 85 k

4 years from now with 3% per year they will be near 94 k

[Headhunter]

At the risk of being blasted, I'll chime in!

My wife is a Principle in the Toronto Board, the school is K-8.

She arrives at school no later than 8:00am. She leaves at 5:00pm. She has not had a lunch in 3 years! Yes, three years! As a single administrator in the school, her secretary takes her lunch, leaving the office empty if my wife isn't there. The secretray is a member of CUPE... she takes her lunch and breaks no matter what is happening in the school. My wife works nightly, until 10:00opm, doing the outragous amounts of paper work the board throws at them. That work does not get sdone during the day because my wife is constantly dealing with parents, disciplining students, dealing with various problems, kids hurting other kids, knives, drugs, drunk teachers... and all adminstrators do this! I have nothing but respect for adminstrators of schools...

Teachers, well that's a differnet story! There are some really good dedicated professionals who do care, but I have to say, that many and I do mean many are folks who would not last a minute, in what I like to call the "real world".

These people have graduated university to become teachers and so many of them can't meet dealines. EG, report cards late, spelling mistakes on report cards, gramatical errors on report cards...

Oh and they virtually have to kill a child to get fired. I know of far too many teachers who simply get shipped from one school to next as they burn their bridges everywhere they go! Who pays for this ... the kids! And if the teacher has a level of seniority, they must be hired above other candidates, regardless of the actual abilities, or lack there of.

Don't get me started on Education Assitants or custodial staff. My wife tells me her school is a dump! (mice , rats, racoons, chip munks) I ask her if she has confronted the custodial staff regarding the problem and her is is this;

"I have to be really careful how and what I say to him as I need him to work with me, so if I bust him too hard, he's actually do less! And to make matters worse for her, he may file a grievence with the union, suggestioning that he is being brow beaten by and adminstrator. In the real world, he'd be fired! Not gonna happen.

E/A's as they are called, are positions ANYONE can apply for! No education post secondary education required, nothing! They make around $35 -$40k per year.

Teachers have a tough gig, unfortunately their working environemnt has changed and in my humble opinion, so has the "type" of person who gravitates to the profession.

This "strike" is about prep time, not money. I think I should ask my boss if he could give me more time to prepare to do my job... I can already hear me working at my new job as a result... asking it you would like frys with that! LOL

HH

PS... Ronald REgan had the right idea!

[Headhunter]

Cudz, salary is dependant on the board you work for... I know some teachers who are in the $90K plus bracket.

As far as principals are concerned... well they are essentially the CEO of thier school... they have responsibility for everything and all things that happen at the school and in many cases, they are responsible for what the kids are doing off of school property as well!

They don't get summers off completely... my wifes is on call 7 x 24 x 365 with regard to anything that happens at her school... I don't think her salary is out of line for any position with a similar level of resonsibility.

HH

[misfish]

Muddler thanks you for that.

Well said.

Also by others here too.

I dont believe I was bashing the teachers.Pointing out that striking in this day of the economy is not right.

Also my comment about then and now as far as the care of the teaching.I have seen the change,you just have to listen to the kids out there these days.

Back in the day you got a good cuff it you spoke out of line.Now the kids run the show.

[cram]

Lots of interesting views here. I wonder -- would everyone prefer if schools were private? If it were a free market?

[cram]

Headhunter -- sounds like your wife hates her job. That's really unfortunate.

[Grimace]

That really sucks that the secretary at a school gets a lunch. What can we do to stop this injustice?

[Headhunter]

Cram, my wife loves her job! What she doesn't like is the mediorce or incompetant being rewarded with life long postions, with little or no interest in anything but themselves.

If she frustrated... you betcha! Her perception of what she should be doing on a daily basis, spending time in class rooms and working with the community to introduce new curiculum is what she loves to do... and she's good at it!

Unfortunately, the lions share of her day is spent very much like the guys that follows the elephant in the parade!

HH

[cram]

Cram, my wife loves her job! What she doesn't like is the mediorce or incompetant being rewarded with life long postions, with little or no interest in anything but themselves.

If she frustrated... you betcha! Her perception of what she should be doing on a daily basis, spending time in class rooms and working with the community to introduce new curiculum is what she loves to do... and she's good at it!

Unfortunately, the lions share of her day is spent very much like the guys that follows the elephant in the parade!

HH

 

Well it sounds like she hates all the people she works with, which doesn't sound like much fun.

[LeXXington]

Its a quick one, No Employee on the public purse should have the right to strike. PERIOD. Cause we the People don't have a way of saying no. Enough is a Enough.

 

I hate it when we get held hostage until we give in. Regardless how much it hurts the average person Goverement has to get the money from somewhere to pay there people what they demand so they just tax more. There are many people on this board that are having job issues. Being told to pay teachers more just cause they said so or they will strike if you don't is a form of terrorisim too me.

 

teachers have the best of the hostages going... Not only do they hurt the kids but they put the parents in trouble too.

 

You are a union employee working for a company that has competition go strike enjoy. If it works for you good if not and your out of a job oh well.

 

Say NO to public unions

[muddler]

I just happen to be watching KIRO news fron Seattle a couple of days ago. The mayor of Seattle has offered to take a 3% pay cut and hopes that it sets an example for the rest of his staff. Now that's the kind of thinking we should all have.

 

In todays Sudbury Star the headline reads,"Elementary teachers pressured to accept new $700-M deal today". Sounds good for the teachers, but once you read a little further it reads, "However, it doesn't appear to resolve a key issue: the union's demand that the province commit to closing a $711-per-student funding gap between elementary and high schools."

 

So waht's all this about? Take a walk around your local Elementary School or better yet volunteer a day a week for a while. You will be shocked by what you see. $711 X 30 students per class = $21338 for resources and materials per class per year. Tough to argue that!

 

Muddler

[Cudz]

Cudz, salary is dependant on the board you work for... I know some teachers who are in the $90K plus bracket.

As far as principals are concerned... well they are essentially the CEO of thier school... they have responsibility for everything and all things that happen at the school and in many cases, they are responsible for what the kids are doing off of school property as well!

They don't get summers off completely... my wifes is on call 7 x 24 x 365 with regard to anything that happens at her school... I don't think her salary is out of line for any position with a similar level of resonsibility.

HH

Generally the salaries are within $1000 of each other in every board. Some teacher will make extra money if they are dept. leaders and can make extra money on top of that if they are co-op leaders etc. so $90 k is possible but there are very few. Administraiton can make over $100K but you already know that seeing as your wife is one.

 

$85000 is for a catgory 4 teacher (as qualified as can be) with 11 years teaching experience.

Teachers can make less thatn $40K if they are new and not as qualified.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Cudz