Is my calculation correct?

[holdfast]

I think the Coalition had it Right by forking Billions into the Auto trade before the Americans make a judgement and before talking to the Big three in Canada ( ONTARIO) on how they are not going to drain that money. It really makes sense don't it. Ahh, lets put Billions into the forestry, do you think they may reopen the dead Pulp mills in Sask. I know one thing, thanks to the Fab three, the Unions have gotten Horny now and of course they think its a great Idea. Greed and stupidity.

[Fisherman]

huh?? not following you

Well just quoting your original quote, seems you don't have any problem giving your money to the Unions, leave mine in my pocket thanks you, unless your intent was different at that early hour of the morning, that's what I understood.

[cram]

Well just quoting your original quote, seems you don't have any problem giving your money to the Unions, leave mine in my pocket thanks you, unless your intent was different at that early hour of the morning, that's what I understood.

 

Yeah, you needed to read the quote i was replying to. A previous poster said it was kind of unfair for us to be judging how much money someone else (the autoworkers) amke. My response was that those autoworkers are asking US for money to pay their salaries, so its fair. If you're askign me for a few hundred $ out of my pocket, then its fair to judge...

[ch312]

to those who are whining that we dont support the big 3...

 

imports are much better because:

 

-higher quality

-better engineering

-warranty actually means something to them

-usually better mileage

 

people should buy a vehicle form the big 3 and get stuck with a crap vehicle with a crap warranty that is hard to get repairs just to make sure the automotive industry doesnt take a dump? i dont think so.

 

notice how none of the "imports" are asking for money? that should be setting off warning bells right there that the big 3 SUCK

 

 

the government should have setup a voting system to see if taxpayers actually want their money to goto these companies or not. polls that i have seen are not in favor of giving them the money and thats the way it should be.

Edited December 7, 2008 by ch312

[John Bacon]

From what I understand, General Motors is worth $3 billion at current stock prices. If they are asking for $8 billion from the Canadian government and $18 billion from the U.S. government; that $26 billion for a company that they could buy for $3 billion. That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I don't think the dooms day scenario of bankruptcies are accurate. If they go bankrupt, then other companies can buy the assembly lines and the rights to their product lines and continue producing the vehicles without the debt, legacy costs, and union contracts that they currently have to deal with.

 

Magna was bidding on Chrysler when Mercedes was selling them off. They would be a candidate to purchase the assets of a bankrupt company; probably for a lot cheaper than they would have paid for the corporation itself.

 

They probably would only open some of the assembly lines; too many plants for the current demand is part of the problem facing the auto industry. However, part of there restructuring plan is to close plants so either way were going to loose some jobs. The questions is, does the government pay to keep half of the jobs, or do independant investors pay to keep half of the jobs.

[holdfast]

to those who are whining that we dont support the big 3...

 

imports are much better because:

 

-higher quality

-better engineering

-warranty actually means something to them

-usually better mileage

 

people should buy a vehicle form the big 3 and get stuck with a crap vehicle with a crap warranty that is hard to get repairs just to make sure the automotive industry doesnt take a dump? i dont think so.

 

notice how none of the "imports" are asking for money? that should be setting off warning bells right there that the big 3 SUCK

the government should have setup a voting system to see if taxpayers actually want their money to goto these companies or not. polls that i have seen are not in favor of giving them the money and thats the way it should be.

 

And they would be alot cheaper without the import taxes inorder for the Crap cars to survive on huge salaries. CEOs, Engineers, Sponsers, Plant Workers, Unions so on and so on. Heres a good one. Now the Second Hand Car Dealers want money. Worst crooks of all, my heart is really Bleeding.

[LeXXington]

The sad fact is no matter what happens if the money is given or not.. Its too late for the job losses coming there is no quick fix it will take years too turn the "obsolete 3 around"

 

The money that you give is more too buy time that save jobs.

[Greencoachdog]

I heard over the radio this morning that GM (Canada) wants 4 billion dollars NOW and then in January they want another 4 billion.

 

I think that GM is asking too much. In the USA, the big three are asking for 15 to 17 billion. Now do not forget that the population is about 10 times the population of Canada. Canada’s population, I am assuming is about 30 million – includes all even kids who will not be able to pay anything.

 

So based on the above, Canada should give only 1/10 or 1.5 to 1.7 billion for all three.

 

This morning I started to wonder how much it will cost us per person. DO NOT FORGET THAT MONEY DOES NOT COME FROM THE SKY. WE WILL BE THE ONES WHO WILL PAY.

 

So, I did some calculations and this is where I could be wrong. There are so many zeros..

 

case 1 - Canada population of 30 million – includes kids

 

4,000,000,000 / 30,000,000 equals - $133.33 per man, woman and child

 

case 2 – if kids not included – I assume the population is 15 million

 

Kids cannot contribute. The parents will have to pay.

 

4,000,000,000 / 15,000,000

equals – $266.66

 

The above is required by GM right now. They say that they also will need another 4 billion in January.

 

So, double all of the above in case 1 and 2 to get the cost per person.

 

Do not forget this will not be the first time that GM has needed a bailout. We have had too many in the past. And they will come again and again.

 

At some point, a decision has to be made to stop bailing out GM. It's like with an old car. Do you keep on putting money into your old car to keep it running or do you just go out and get a new car? At some point you have say "that is it" and you stop.

 

Can you afford it? Do not forget that there will be other companies who will be asking for easy money.

 

Can we afford it? I don’t think so. At least I cannot.

 

You guys may have a different opinion. Perhaps I am not seeing everything.

 

What are your opinions?

 

But, I say to GM -

 

 

carp-starter

 

FYI

 

Ford will come out with a new vehicle in 2010. Guess what it is. It will be a 2010 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor – the basic version will be over 300 hp, huge tires and etc, etc. The next one up will be over 400 hp (I think). These guys do not learn.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5075561/2010-ford-f+15...ptor-first-ride

 

http://www.rsportscars.com/ford/2010-ford-f150-svt-raptor/

 

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/2010-for...look/1541704977

 

[chris.brock]

I work at the Ford Plant in Oakville. We are currently launching a new vehicle (maybe 10 or so have come down the line), based on the Flex platform. The price starts at around $55 000, another genious idea in a poor economy, I don't get it, and the new Festiva micro car is years away, very frustrating

 

Ford builds some small gas and diesel cars in Europe, how hard would it be to build or sell them over here?

 

I don't blame you guys for saying "no bail outs", the upper management continues to screw things up habitually, I just don't want to loose my job

[Uncle Buck]

ironic that every time someone buys something fishing related from the states/big box store, he gets jumped on for not supporting his local tackle shop...

 

yet you buy foreign cars and all is well... and no one raises a stink...

 

how many people does a local tackle store employ compared to a local manufacturing facility...

 

nice to see that most are for many losing their jobs... hope they show the same pride if/when their time comes...

[JohnF]

ironic that every time someone buys something fishing related from the states/big box store, he gets jumped on for not supporting his local tackle shop...

 

yet you buy foreign cars and all is well... and no one raises a stink...

 

how many people does a local tackle store employ compared to a local manufacturing facility...

 

nice to see that most are for many losing their jobs... hope they show the same pride if/when their time comes...

 

With all due respect, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The people who are employed by the fishing tackle shops are our neighbours, just like the car salespeople. When we buy locally, whether it's fishing gear, domestic cars or foreign cars, we're probably helping out a number of local people in some way. When we buy online we're taking away from local folks.

 

In any case, the lines defining "Made in Canada" have become so blurred it's pretty hard to be sure what is truly made here any more. You've already heard the arguments that a number of the so-called foreign cars are actually assembled right here in Canada, many in Ontario. As much of the fishing gear we buy is manufactured out of country as in, even if it has a domestic sounding label on it. Or it may be assembled here with parts made in Asia or Mexico, just like the cars we buy.

 

I can quite comfortably argue that my Honda built in Alliston did more for Ontario's economy than my wife's Cadillac built in one of the southern states. It's entirely possible that the parts and labour breakdown may prove me wrong but until that comes I sure don't feel guilty about buying a Honda. I supported a local dealership that hires local people by buying a vehicle "Made in Canada". I could go one further and mention that the GM dealership where I bought the CTS recently pulled up stakes and left town forcing me to go to a different dealership for service etc. The Honda dealer is still here and showing no signs of moving out on me. Recently we lost a long time Chrysler dealership as well. Chrysler owners now have to go out of town for warranty work.

 

This whole local business support argument is pretty tough to swallow any more. Our world has grown way too small and industry has become way too multinational to draw hard lines about it. I sympathize with the autoworkers, salespeople, parts manufacturers etc who are threatened by the possible collapse of the N.A. auto industry, but I can't buy the argument that we're always letting down the side by buying "foreign" cars.

 

Respectfully

JF

[JohnF]

Oops. Probably saying it once was one time too many.

 

JF

Edited December 9, 2008 by JohnF

[ozaibak1]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

 

A few things. One is that the majority of North American executives (read: USA executives) have shipped manufacturing jobs overseas at disgusting rates, and this was allowed when the laws were changed deliberately several years ago. So blame the leaders responsible for DIRECTLY shipping jobs overseas first.

 

Second, is that we live in a global economy, and in this country and USA we believe in an ideal called capitalism. Capitalism in theory works by allowing FREE OPEN COMPETITIVENESS. By that I mean the consumer is king, the consumer dictates what rises or fails. If a company is building inferior products, I am not gonna buy it, I buy what is best for me. In theory, that will be what is best for the economy.

 

Let them fail, they are not competitive. Government should not be so involved, let the free market work its magic.

[holdfast]

A few things. One is that the majority of North American executives (read: USA executives) have shipped manufacturing jobs overseas at disgusting rates, and this was allowed when the laws were changed deliberately several years ago. So blame the leaders responsible for DIRECTLY shipping jobs overseas first.

 

Second, is that we live in a global economy, and in this country and USA we believe in an ideal called capitalism. Capitalism in theory works by allowing FREE OPEN COMPETITIVENESS. By that I mean the consumer is king, the consumer dictates what rises or fails. If a company is building inferior products, I am not gonna buy it, I buy what is best for me. In theory, that will be what is best for the economy.

 

Let them fail, they are not competitive. Government should not be so involved, let the free market work its magic.

Just to be clear on what your saying. YOU DO NOT AGREE with a Stimulation Package for the Canadian Auto Industry as proposed by the three losing partys that are trying to bring down the Government of Canada. YES OR NO

[OhioFisherman]

Believe it or not all Auto sales are down and my understanding it`s world wide. I heard today auto sales in Spain are down 50%, even problems in China from an economic down turn. Imports stacking up in the ports in Long Beach California, foreign MFGS here extending the Christmas shutdown because of poor sales, one I believe to 7 weeks?

 

Heck even Budweiser is laying off people, like 1200? People don`t have money for Beer? wings might be next? Dang! Idea is to stop this economic down turn from turning into a depression?

[irishfield]

[Bernie]

Pretty much sums it up Wayne.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Bernie

[irishfield]

And I have every right to post it too Bernie with 3 Fords, 2 GM's, a Dodge and a Plymouth in the yard! lol

[pikehunter]

I can honestly say that I have no complaints about my '97 Ford with over 300,000KMs on it and owned since new or my old Honda bought a couple of years ago used also with over 300,000 on the clock. Both have been reliable and I would buy either again. Although if I ever buy new again I would be considering a Honda or Toyota built right here in good old Ontario.

 

And...if you buy a used vehicle what difference does it make if you buy import or domestic? Either way you are not contributing to Canadian or US manufacturing.

 

I know far too many people that work in auto manufacturing that refuse to buy new because new cost too much!! Wow! You make them and get paid the big bucks but you don't buy what you make. How hypercritical is that? So then these same people want our government, you and I to support their over paid jobs! I don't agree with this entirely.

 

And one more point that confuses the whole issue. When Toyota and Honda built their plants in Ontario how much government money was given to them to sweeten the pot? With that point then are the others also due some support?

 

Just some random thoughts from one who can't decide which side of the coin is right.

[Rich]

Heck even Budweiser is laying off people, like 1200? People don`t have money for Beer? wings might be next? Dang! Idea is to stop this economic down turn from turning into a depression?

 

Maybe if people stopped buying so damn much import beer we wouldn't be in this situation!

[ch312]

are they required to pay interest on these loans?

[outllaw]

many opinions. the truth is the global trade and inefficient lack lustre goverments ctreated this mess. with un even trade practices, any manufacturer in north amercica is suffering. from chinese candy bars, poisned dog food to import cars. . bailouts, which are needed is a start. goverments truly need to re-evalute the process.. has anyone here ever done label reading of the products you purchase. do yourselve a favor. then your opinions will change. you will be hard pressed to see. MADE IN CANADA.

as for staements of auto workers un-educated or folks in manufacturing, check the stats. many have degrees and to even qualify for applications, tough screening is done.. goverments have allowed the downward spiralling of wages and benefits. its not workers faults or unions. put the blame where it belongs upon goverments and greedy ceo,s. i have driven foreign and big 3 vehicles. my bucks are spent on north amerrican made products..

[holdfast]

many opinions. the truth is the global trade and inefficient lack lustre goverments ctreated this mess. with un even trade practices, any manufacturer in north amercica is suffering. from chinese candy bars, poisned dog food to import cars. . bailouts, which are needed is a start. goverments truly need to re-evalute the process.. has anyone here ever done label reading of the products you purchase. do yourselve a favor. then your opinions will change. you will be hard pressed to see. MADE IN CANADA.

as for staements of auto workers un-educated or folks in manufacturing, check the stats. many have degrees and to even qualify for applications, tough screening is done.. goverments have allowed the downward spiralling of wages and benefits. its not workers faults or unions. put the blame where it belongs upon goverments and greedy ceo,s. i have driven foreign and big 3 vehicles. my bucks are spent on north amerrican made products..

 

I would say they did it to themselves because they been producing crap since I can Remember, Pinto, Maverick, Gremlin, Pacer Tempo, Chevette, Corvette, Javelin, Bronco, Jimmy.................on and on and on. I guess every Government screwed them at least since I was alive. I think you just work for the Company, Dealer or you have so much money that your cars are disposable.

[outllaw]

thats a very viable point. they did it to themselves. like i said goverments, and ceo,s. many folks dont realize the other factors. without bailouts. pensioners lose all benefits and loss of incomes. something they payed into for there lives. the financial drain would fall upon the goverments re-gardless. an no i dont work for the big 3 and i probably live on a far reduced income then many here. but please do check labels or read the box your products come in and then give me your opinion. this is further reaching then auto bailouts.

[2 tone z71]

for one I would NEVER buy a Toyota or Honda Car or truck im to big to be squeezed into a lil shoe box,secondly its amazing that people think these cars @ trucks are like Maytag appliances they never need repair,gimme a break there shops are as busy as everyone elses,should they get the bailout NO ,they need to sink to restructure to start over and replan,will they get it more than likely Yes,the goverment needs GM to keep building them HUM vees for war,as you dont see the almighty Toyota or Nissan or Honda steeping up ,they have a hard enough time trying to build a decent fullsize to compete with the big 3 as it is

Edited December 10, 2008 by North East Shark