Is my calculation correct?

[OhioFisherman]

I would say they did it to themselves because they been producing crap since I can Remember, Pinto, Maverick, Gremlin, Pacer Tempo, Chevette, Corvette, Javelin, Bronco, Jimmy.................on and on and on. I guess every Government screwed them at least since I was alive. I think you just work for the Company, Dealer or you have so much money that your cars are disposable.

 

LOL easy on the Chevettes there, I bought a 3 year old one from a private owner for 1200 bucks and drove it for 8 years. Nothing done to it but regular oil changes and tires, and a timing belt.

[JohnF]

thats a very viable point. they did it to themselves. like i said goverments, and ceo,s. many folks dont realize the other factors. without bailouts. pensioners lose all benefits and loss of incomes. something they payed into for there lives. the financial drain would fall upon the goverments re-gardless. an no i dont work for the big 3 and i probably live on a far reduced income then many here. but please do check labels or read the box your products come in and then give me your opinion. this is further reaching then auto bailouts.

 

That's why I wondered about putting the gov't funding into the legacy program support (pensions, health ins, etc) instead of giving it to the companies that will quite likely finally declare chapter eleven or whatever and forfeit on all the bailout debt anyway. The gov't allowed the problem with the pensions and so on to evolve because they did't require the Big 3 to fund the plans properly in the first place. If the Big 3 had been required to properly fund the pensions and health plans as they accumulated they might have avoided or at east better anticipated the problem they now have.

 

That would address the problem that would otherwise arise for the innocent victims. As for the industry infrastructure breakdown, I figger the market for new vehicles won't go away completely, so why not let smarter operators like Frank Stronach and some Asians pick up the existing manufacturing facilities, suppliers, and labour force and run the industry more efficiently. Might suck for the unions to have to deal with tougher employers but at least there will still be jobs for those who actually wanna work.

 

JF

[JohnAB]

I say let them go under. I pay taxes is this country and I do not want them going to some companies where the CEO is getting $9 million in bonuses and flying around in some corporate jet. The Big 3 have to learn to build a quality vehicle in a price range people can afford.

[Chris]

So let me get this straight...... I own my own business (in operation for almost 20 years now) and make less than an assembly line autoworker. I have no pension or benefits. I went to post secondary school to get into my trade and have had to continually upgrade my skills (at my own expense) to keep up with the times and to stay in business. I won't even qualify for pogey if work dries up. Several of the factories here in Eastern Ontario that I used to get work from have closed....none of them received any kind of bailout. I'm talking Nestle's, Domtar etc, etc all big companies......not a dime from the feds or McGuilty. After saving up for what seemed like an eternity we finally had enough money and went out and bought a brand new Buick. The thing turned out to be a piece of crap from day one and neither the dealership nor GM could care less abut the problems I had with the car.....their warranty ain't worth the paper it's wriiten on.

 

And now as a taxpayer I'm expected to keep these guys employed. Sorry but all the crying in the world ain't gonna influence me.

 

Let the big three fall. That's what happens when you charge to much for crappy products made by overpaid union workers.

[knightfisher]

Here's a sane solution...

 

 

 

Saving the Big 3 for You and Me ...a message from Michael Moore

 

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008

 

Friends,

 

I drive an American car. It's a Chrysler. That's not an endorsement. It's more like a cry for pity. And now for a decades-old story, retold ad infinitum by tens of millions of Americans, a third of whom have had to desert their country to simply find a damn way to get to work in something that won't break down:

 

My Chrysler is four years old. I bought it because of its smooth and comfortable ride. Daimler-Benz owned the company then and had the good grace to place the Chrysler chassis on a Mercedes axle and, man, was that a sweet ride!

 

When it would start.

 

More than a dozen times in these years, the car has simply died. Batteries have been replaced, but that wasn't the problem. My dad drives the same model. His car has died many times, too. Just won't start, for no reason at all.

 

A few weeks ago, I took my Chrysler in to the Chrysler dealer here in northern Michigan -- and the latest fixes cost me $1,400. The next day, the vehicle wouldn't start. When I got it going, the brake warning light came on. And on and on.

 

You might assume from this that I couldn't give a rat's ass about these miserably inept crapmobile makers down the road in Detroit city. But I do care. I care about the millions whose lives and livelihoods depend on these car companies. I care about the security and defense of this country because the world is running out of oil -- and when it runs out, the calamity and collapse that will take place will make the current recession/depression look like a Tommy Tune musical.

 

And I care about what happens with the Big 3 because they are more responsible than almost anyone for the destruction of our fragile atmosphere and the daily melting of our polar ice caps.

 

Congress must save the industrial infrastructure that these companies control and the jobs they create. And it must save the world from the internal combustion engine. This great, vast manufacturing network can redeem itself by building mass transit and electric/hybrid cars, and the kind of transportation we need for the 21st century.

 

And Congress must do all this by NOT giving GM, Ford and Chrysler the $34 billion they are asking for in "loans" (a few days ago they only wanted $25 billion; that's how stupid they are -- they don't even know how much they really need to make this month's payroll. If you or I tried to get a loan from the bank this way, not only would we be thrown out on our ear, the bank would place us on some sort of credit rating blacklist).Two weeks ago, the CEOs of the Big 3 were tarred and feathered before a Congressional committee who sneered at them in a way far different than when the heads of the financial industry showed up two months earlier. At that time, the politicians tripped over each other in their swoon for Wall Street and its Ponzi schemers who had concocted Byzantine ways to bet other people's money on unregulated credit default swaps, known in the common vernacular as unicorns and fairies.

 

But the Detroit boys were from the Midwest, the Rust (yuk!) Belt, where they made real things that consumers needed and could touch and buy, and that continually recycled money into the economy (shocking!), produced unions that created the middle class, and fixed my teeth for free when I was ten.

 

For all of that, the auto heads had to sit there in November and be ridiculed about how they traveled to D.C. Yes, they flew on their corporate jets, just like the bankers and Wall Street thieves did in October. But, hey, THAT was OK! They're the Masters of the Universe! Nothing but the best chariots for Big Finance as they set about to loot our nation's treasury.

 

Of course, the auto magnates used to be the Masters who ruled the world. They were the pulsating hub that all other industries -- steel, oil, cement contractors -- served. Fifty-five years ago, the president of GM sat on that same Capitol Hill and bluntly told Congress, what's good for General Motors is good for the country. Because, you see, in their minds, GM WAS the country.

 

What a long, sad fall from grace we witnessed on November 19th when the three blind mice had their knuckles slapped and then were sent back home to write an essay called, "Why You Should Give Me Billions of Dollars of Free Cash." They were also asked if they would work for a dollar a year. Take that! What a big, brave Congress they are! Requesting indentured servitude from (still) three of the most powerful men in the world. This from a spineless body that won't dare stand up to a disgraced president nor turn down a single funding request for a war that neither they nor the American public support. Amazing.

 

Let me just state the obvious: Every single dollar Congress gives these three companies will be flushed right down the toilet. There is nothing the management teams of the Big 3 are going to do to convince people to go out during a recession and buy their big, gas-guzzling, inferior products. Just forget it. And, as sure as I am that the Ford family-owned Detroit Lions are not going to the Super Bowl -- ever -- I can guarantee you, after they burn through this $34 billion, they'll be back for another $34 billion next summer.

 

So what to do? Members of Congress, here's what I propose:

 

1. Transporting Americans is and should be one of the most important functions our government must address. And because we are facing a massive economic, energy and environmental crisis, the new president and Congress must do what Franklin Roosevelt did when he was faced with a crisis (and ordered the auto industry to stop building cars and instead build tanks and planes): The Big 3 are, from this point forward, to build only cars that are not primarily dependent on oil and, more importantly to build trains, buses, subways and light rail (a corresponding public works project across the country will build the rail lines and tracks). This will not only save jobs, but create millions of new ones.

 

2. You could buy ALL the common shares of stock in General Motors for less than $3 billion. Why should we give GM $18 billion or $25 billion or anything? Take the money and buy the company! (You're going to demand collateral anyway if you give them the "loan," and because we know they will default on that loan, you're going to own the company in the end as it is. So why wait? Just buy them out now.)

 

3. None of us want government officials running a car company, but there are some very smart transportation geniuses who could be hired to do this. We need a Marshall Plan to switch us off oil-dependent vehicles and get us into the 21st century.

 

This proposal is not radical or rocket science. It just takes one of the smartest people ever to run for the presidency to pull it off. What I'm proposing has worked before. The national rail system was in shambles in the '70s. The government took it over. A decade later it was turning a profit, so the government returned it to private/public hands, and got a couple billion dollars put back in the treasury.

 

This proposal will save our industrial infrastructure -- and millions of jobs. More importantly, it will create millions more. It literally could pull us out of this recession.

 

In contrast, yesterday General Motors presented its restructuring proposal to Congress. They promised, if Congress gave them $18 billion now, they would, in turn, eliminate around 20,000 jobs. You read that right. We give them billions so they can throw more Americans out of work. That's been their Big Idea for the last 30 years -- layoff thousands in order to protect profits. But no one ever stopped to ask this question: If you throw everyone out of work, who's going to have the money to go out and buy a car?

 

These idiots don't deserve a dime. Fire all of them, and take over the industry for the good of the workers, the country and the planet.

 

What's good for General Motors IS good for the country. Once the country is calling the shots.

 

Yours,

Michael Moore

[email protected]

MichaelMoore.com

 

P.S. I will be on Keith Olbermann tonight (8pm/10pm/midnight ET) to discuss this further on MSNBC.

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=242

[2 tone z71]

Well from April - Nov im a Carpenter from Nov -March I am small engine mechanic both these fields are slowing down very fast I want the goverment to hold my hand and keep me above water,and give a few mill to the contractor I work for so I may have a job to go to hahah ill keep dreaming

[camillj]

These idiots don't deserve a dime. Fire all of them, and take over the industry for the good of the workers, the country and the planet.

 

Yes... sure ... brilliant ! ... and then how much of a bailout will you need after you own it ... the problem wont be solved once we own the companies ? Some people make me crazy !!!!

[JohnF]

Here's a sane solution...

Saving the Big 3 for You and Me ...a message from Michael Moore

 

Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008

 

Friends,

 

I drive an American car. It's a Chrysler. That's not an endorsement. It's more like a cry for pity. And now for a decades-old story, retold ad infinitum by tens of millions of Americans, a third of whom have had to desert their country to simply find a damn way to get to work in something that won't break down:

 

My Chrysler is four years old. I bought it because of its smooth and comfortable ride. Daimler-Benz owned the company then and had the good grace to place the Chrysler chassis on a Mercedes axle and, man, was that a sweet ride!

 

When it would start.

 

<<<snip a bunch of typical Michael Moore nonsense>>>>

 

As reviled as Moore is by many factions in America (even Canada) I get a huge charge out of how he cuts to the bone on a lot of issues. Let me go on record right now as saying that I'd bet money he could secretly care less if real honest to goodness hunters (even the Camo Cowboy from Motor City or, rest his soul, Ben Hur) wanna shoot some deer in season, or the odd skunk, or a bunch of competitive minded souls wanna shoot targets weekly to test their prowess. I think what he objects to is the unnecessary shooting of innocent school kids and office workers by yahoos who were raised to believe the gun is all powerful, and that by taking a loaded gun in hand they are suddenly rulers of the universe, and some sort of superior entity. That being said I'm not writing to offend any responsible gun owners. On the other hand any gun owning yahoo cowboy types (read irresponsible ) can take all the offence they want.

 

For those who can overlook Moore's anti-gun sensationalizing I think he makes some valid observations and conclusions here. Love him or hate him, he ain't stoopid.

 

JF

[ozaibak1]

Just to be clear on what your saying. YOU DO NOT AGREE with a Stimulation Package for the Canadian Auto Industry as proposed by the three losing partys that are trying to bring down the Government of Canada. YES OR NO

 

No, I do not. And it's not due to lack of sympathy for the people losing their jobs. I do not think the stimulation package is sustainable, or will solve any problems even in the near-term. The bailouts only help the inept management at the very top, whether it be in the banking or auto industries. The effects do not 'trickle down'. The US bailout that was done practically at gunpoint, had the CLEAR STATEMENT that banks would use this money to lend to people, which they have not.

 

Same goes with the money to the auto industry. Who gets it? The crappy management that has failed in the first place. This is like giving more money to someone who keeps failing. Unfortunately, it happens very often in our society today, even before this whole mess.

 

A little fishing analogy: this industry is a fishing tournament. And the people who run this tournament keep rewarding the guys who are losing, and you rig the rules to make your 'buddies' who are losing benefit.

 

Interested in your thoughts holdfast.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Bass Killer