Is the future electric?

[Dara]

18 minutes ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

Don't forget that the blades can't be recycled and are just buried. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8294057/Hundreds-non-recyclable-fiberglass-wind-turbine-blades-pictured-piling-landfills.html

 

Those wind turbines sure do burn good with their 1,000 gallons of oil and 1,000's of pounds of plastic though.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-62405231

Is that what they call Green Smoke?

[smitty55]

5 hours ago, DRIFTER_016 said:

Don't forget that the blades can't be recycled and are just buried. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8294057/Hundreds-non-recyclable-fiberglass-wind-turbine-blades-pictured-piling-landfills.html

 

Those wind turbines sure do burn good with their 1,000 gallons of oil and 1,000's of pounds of plastic though.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-62405231

I've seen many articles and photos of them burning up, flying apart, and leaking oil all over the place. Not to mention the number of birds they kill each year. And don't forget the seismic damage they do to the ground they are mounted on.

[DanD]

What is a safe energy power source?

Had a lot more to say but won't go much further; other than this.

We all thirst for some form of power, if it's inexpensive we'll use it. Is it environmentally friendly, who knows; until years later? On the big scheme of things the average Jane & Joe don't give a crap, as long as they can afford to light and power their belongings. Taking the risk that the engineer's are right; that it's SAFE!!!!

Dan...   

[CrowMan]

Nuclear power (despite the fear mongering in some media) has proven to be very safe. In the over 65 years that we've had 100's of nuclear power plants around the globe...there have only been three incidents.

1. Three Mile Island...failed due to human error. Basically the equivalent of the Koebel Brothers from Walkerton were running the plant at the time.

2.  Chernobyl....constructed and operated by the Russians... see their track record with commercial aircraft...I think enough said..

3. Fukushima...impacted by a tsunami. The likelihood of that kind of event in Ontario is nil.

[Dara]

I would like to see some research into the poison that will be left with all these batteries we are going to use.

Will we be poisoning our water instead of the air next.

Possibly a carbon capture system on gas engines would do something better.

[CrowMan]

It is my understanding that every single component of a lithium battery can be recycled. 

[Dara]

18 minutes ago, CrowMan said:

It is my understanding that every single component of a lithium battery can be recycled. 

OK, I see 95% now, not bad, just difficult and not great for environment itself.

[CrowMan]

I love the growl of a V8 as much as the next guy. My ride in the 70's was a Duster 340 with a 6 pack...leaded gas and no catalytic. Also had a Kawi 750 triple 2 stroke.

But, the writing is on the wall. I wouldn't be investing in a Jiffy or Minit Lube franchise any time soon...

[Terry]

Yeah just a year ago they were saying don’t  invest in anything to do with oil, bitcoin is the way to go 

 

[irishfield]

PFFT. ..

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by irishfield

[captpierre]

19 hours ago, Terry said:

Yeah just a year ago they were saying don’t  invest in anything to do with oil, bitcoin is the way to go 

 

I follow oil and gas stocks. 
Most are saying oil is going to stay at current levels and likely will go to $100+ in 2023.
Oil producers are highly profitable at $60-$80 oil.   Government green policies  are discouraging these companies from exploring and reinvesting profits as was the norm in the past.  Profits will be returned to investors in the way of increased dividends and share buybacks.  Both forcing stock prices up.  With Russian oil under sanctions and the Saudis mostly maxed out, oil will stay high for at least a decade. Companies will likely be doubling their dividends to 8-10% or more in the coming year. That’s good news. I need a new trolling motor with the anchor feature 😎

[CrowMan]

I didn't want to turn this thread into a commentary on investing advice. My remarks about "Minit Lube" were strictly an attempt at humour based on the trend of increasing electrification of the economy. 

I will say, when I hear the words ..."most are saying " when it comes to investing, I stay away.

I've always found the words of the Sage of Omaha to be good advice..

"Be fearful when others greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful."

I also live by..."don't invest in a business you don't understand". That's  why I would never touch bitcoin or crypto.

[captpierre]

22 minutes ago, CrowMan said:

I didn't want to turn this thread into a commentary on investing advice. My remarks about "Minit Lube" were strictly an attempt at humour based on the trend of increasing electrification of the economy. 

I will say, when I hear the words ..."most are saying " when it comes to investing, I stay away.

I've always found the words of the Sage of Omaha to be good advice..

"Be fearful when others greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful."

I also live by..."don't invest in a business you don't understand". That's  why I would never touch bitcoin or crypto.

Warren Buffet bought Occidental Petroleum last year and took a significant stake in ExxonMobil. 

[Terry]

My post was 100% in the name of humour 

[irishfield]

3 minutes ago, Terry said:

My post was 100% in the name of humour 

Mine was my thoughts on going electric... LOL

[BassMan11]

3 hours ago, captpierre said:

I follow oil and gas stocks. 
Most are saying oil is going to stay at current levels and likely will go to $100+ in 2023.
Oil producers are highly profitable at $60-$80 oil.   Government green policies  are discouraging these companies from exploring and reinvesting profits as was the norm in the past.  Profits will be returned to investors in the way of increased dividends and share buybacks.  Both forcing stock prices up.  With Russian oil under sanctions and the Saudis mostly maxed out, oil will stay high for at least a decade. Companies will likely be doubling their dividends to 8-10% or more in the coming year. That’s good news. I need a new trolling motor with the anchor feature 😎

Managed to "outperform the market" with small to medium cap energy stocks last year. I would agree with you analysis lol. 

[AKRISONER]

Speaking of electrified things, I finally got to give an electric ice auger a go this weekend (ion Gen 1)

I can tell you right now, I will never use a gas auger again if I don’t have to. The electric was better in every single imaginable way. I could not think of a single negative to say about it.

I wasn’t even aware that these augers feature a reverse button, which of course allowed you to basically push 90% of the ice shavings back down the hole. Once you’d punched through.

I’ve heard that when it’s really cold you may neeed to bring the battery inside the hut, but we left the thing out in -5 for two days of fishing and it barely ate any power. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by AKRISONER

[aplumma]

You can state your opinions as long as it does not include insults or ridicule others opinions. I reset the last few comments with this warning. The next step is to lock the thread. I prefer not to do this because it so far has been interesting.

Art

[scuro2]

Nuclear isn't always a no brainer, it depends on the location and country. May be the better approach is to work towards eliminating what is worst. The low hanging fruit is coal burning power plants. We have none in Ontario so two stoke motors are another easy target. They can produce a lot more pollution. For most Ontarioians switching out gas powered tools for electric is a wash. The added benefit of electric is that the tool doesn't need oil changes and you don't have to worry about your gasoline in the engine over the winter. It is also a clean and less noisy experience to operate. That and you have a button start, full power as soon as you press it.

I've got a big lawn and can cut it with one battery, I have a second battery. You would need more then an acre of lawn before gas is necessary. Ditto for electric cars. To me it's a no brainer if you live the GTA and have a detached house to get electric for commuting and regular use. Ditto the snow blower, chain saw etc etc. Some will need gas but the vast majority of people won't. You could encourage this with something as simple as eliminating tax on electric tools. Better is a slowly rising carbon tax.

On top of that battery technology is improving all the time. To do nothing will eventually end the civilized world as we know it. Global warming is happening and all us older ones know it. Here we didn't have real winter this year until Jan 23rd. As a boy a hard winter would set in around christmas, that is when our neighbour flooded his outdoor rink. You could never now flood in Dec and hope to have ice for any length of time.

Edited February 4, 2023 by scuro2

[DanD]

I'm just asking here cause I don't know? What are the by-products/waste materials produced during the manufacturing of the batteries? What's the environmental footprint that's left after producing the electricity to charge these batteries? Where do these batteries go when they're at the end of their useful life? 

Are we trading the devil we know for one that we don't?

I still think we/they should be working on better management/use of the resources we have. If it turns out to be electric so be it as long as the reactors and coal fired plants are not part of the big business plans to make their profits. I'm being naïve with that last sustenance; everything revolves around profit. The monies that are needed to make change has to show some form of profit to the investor. No profit no change!!!  

Dan...

[CrowMan]

Yes, some of the stuff in lithium batteries is toxic...but all the components are 100% recyclable. So long as we don't throw them in to landfills it's all good. Just like lead acid batteries, I assume there will be some financial incentive to trade them in, rather than just throw them in the dump.

Keep in mind, that with our reliance on oil that we are dependent on a relatively small number of non-local producers (Alberta, Middle East, Russia, etc). The suppliers influence the price on the supply side through organizations like OPEC (I never understood how that is even legal). With electrification, we can produce  energy locally (nuclear, hydro, solar) so we're not hostage to the whim of some Sheiks...blue eyed or not. In fact, you can make your own electricity and not be reliant on anyone...I dont think you can make your own gasoline. Electrical production fosters a lot more competitive market as it can be created in a number of ways on a macro and micro level.

At this point, I think the debate is over...whether you like it not...in 30 years ICEs will be niche products limited to few small market segments.

 

[scuro2]

Just looked it up, 34 per cent nuclear, 28 per cent natural gas, 23 per cent hydro, 13 per cent wind, one per cent solar and less than one per cent biofuel.

That is more natural gas then I thought. Likely the natural gas is used to meet peak demand especially during the hottest and coldest parts of the year. Based on those percentages I am assuming it would be more environmentally friendly to power your car from electricity vrs gas. EV cars are not the answer to global warming. I am eyeing one but can't wait 2 years to get one and the model Y is still expensive at about $72000 all in. I'm likely going to buy a used car and then buy in 4-5 years when the EVs will be cheaper and more efficient.

I did buy solar panels but this definitely is not for everyone. Ideally you want direct sun so your roof has to be positioned right and you can't have much shade hitting the roof. There is a $5000 dollar incentive for this. In the end I did it mainly as an investment. It should pay for itself in 7-8 years. They promised a bit better. The panels should get me at least 30 years of production. No normal household can go off the grid with solar. You do get credits for overproduction from Ontario Hydro which you use up during the winter when the sun is weak. The other key reason I did this was it reduces the need for peak time electricity in the summer. I don't need all the electricity I produce during the day for my air conditioning. It is used by the houses in my neighbourhood for their air conditioning and energy during that time. It will also save OH on transportation costs.

Edited February 7, 2023 by scuro2

[BassMan11]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:38 AM, scuro2 said:

Nuclear isn't always a no brainer, it depends on the location and country. May be the better approach is to work towards eliminating what is worst. The low hanging fruit is coal burning power plants. We have none in Ontario so two stoke motors are another easy target. They can produce a lot more pollution. For most Ontarioians switching out gas powered tools for electric is a wash. The added benefit of electric is that the tool doesn't need oil changes and you don't have to worry about your gasoline in the engine over the winter. It is also a clean and less noisy experience to operate. That and you have a button start, full power as soon as you press it.

I've got a big lawn and can cut it with one battery, I have a second battery. You would need more then an acre of lawn before gas is necessary. Ditto for electric cars. To me it's a no brainer if you live the GTA and have a detached house to get electric for commuting and regular use. Ditto the snow blower, chain saw etc etc. Some will need gas but the vast majority of people won't. You could encourage this with something as simple as eliminating tax on electric tools. Better is a slowly rising carbon tax.

On top of that battery technology is improving all the time. To do nothing will eventually end the civilized world as we know it. Global warming is happening and all us older ones know it. Here we didn't have real winter this year until Jan 23rd. As a boy a hard winter would set in around christmas, that is when our neighbour flooded his outdoor rink. You could never now flood in Dec and hope to have ice for any length of time.

$72,000 small SUV (with moderate range), $1500 push lawn mower, $2500 plastic snow blower, $400 weed eater, $700 chainsaw and a $5000 electric generator and you are ready to be battery powered self sufficient in the GTA. Hopefully you don't wreck any of those batteries because they cost 25K for the SUV and even $350 for the chainsaw.

None of those items would suffice my situation. 35 minutes out of the city with a couple acres to maintain. I'll stick with my Sierra (cheaper than 72K new) , Sthil (gas), Toro (gas), Ariens and Generac (propane) for as long as possible. A much more economical option and I don't think I represent a small minority of home owners.

There is a time and place for battery powered everything... but it isn't for everyone. That's the point. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by BassMan11

[scuro2]

All those prices you listed are all way on the high side. The thing is you buy your snow blower with two batteries and now you buy all your other tools without batteries. Now the other electric tools are cheaper then their gas counterparts and they are much cheaper to run and maintain.  Base model EGO snowblower is $899. Electric tools are perfect for a good majority of the population. There are plenty of EV SUVs at $50000 all in and they qualify for a $5000 EV grant. Hybrid plug ins with 80kms of range also. You have gas but if you do all your driving in your community you can mostly run off of the battery. People are doing this type of math and choosing this because it makes economical sense for them. I get it, not for you.

I'm not sure what you mean by electric generator? Do you mean a solar backup battery? If you need a generator you need a generator regardless of electrical tools. I did not get a solar backup battery. You would need an expensive battery to power your air conditioner. One option I was looking at was installing a switch to your furnace that could hook up to a car battery. You could power your furnace for a while if there was a blackout in the winter. I wonder if anyone on this board has done this? That is the big worry, the cold instead of heat.

I do get what your saying if you live out in the country, I'd be doing exactly what you are doing but realistically you are definitely in a minority. The rural population is about 14% of the overall population. Likely much higher on this forum!

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by scuro2

[AKRISONER]

4 hours ago, BassMan11 said:

 

None of those items would suffice my situation. 35 minutes out of the city with a couple acres to maintain.
 

I don't think I represent a small minority of home owners.

 

 

 

You said it yourself…you indeed do. 

I’m not throwing away my gas stuff but when it’s time to reinvest in outdoor power stuff, battery makes sense if the costs are comparable, especially since all tools can share the same batteries. 
 

the ice auger I used this weekend is better than gas in ever single way.

Edited February 7, 2023 by AKRISONER