Fish and Game Spot Check

[BillM]

The Charter of Rights isn't going to help you if the CO has 'reasonable grounds' to pull you over and spot check you. In this case, maybe it's you pulling a boat, or perhaps you've got tinnes on the roof and a trailer full of muddy ATVs a few days after moose season. Why do you think they need evidence that you've broken some kind of law in order to pull you over? It's spelled out pretty clearly below.

 

89 (1) A conservation officer may stop a conveyance if he or she has reasonable grounds to believe that stopping the conveyance would assist in determining whether there is compliance with this Act or the regulations. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (22).

Operator to stop

(2) On the conservation officer’s signal to stop, the operator of the conveyance shall immediately stop and produce for inspection any wildlife, invertebrate, fish, document or other thing requested by the officer for the purpose of this Act. 1997, c. 41, s. 89 (2); 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (23).

[Glaucus]

From the Canadian Shooting Sports lawyer Edward L. Burlew, L.L.B. CSSA Counsel

http://cssa-cila.org/legals/no-warrant-no-entry/

The law presumes all searches and seizures to be a breach of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Section 8 which says:

"Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure."

The search and seizures will be upheld by a court only if the police have acted in strict compliance with the provisions of the Criminal Code as interpreted by the courts.

When arrested the accused can be searched for evidence and for weapons. This is done to preserve evidence and for safety.

If a person is arrested outside his home then the police cannot enter his home without a warrant.

If a person runs into his home and the police are in hot pursuit then the police can follow him/her into the home and arrest. Then they may do a limited search of the persona and the area.

If a person is arrested with a vehicle then the police may move the vehicle for safety and shall inventory the contents that are in sight. They cannot rip the car apart without a warrant and there must be reasonable grounds to believe evidence of an offense will be found.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms tells you in section 8: "You have the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure". What is "unreasonable"? The Criminal Code provisions have from time to time been found to be unreasonable by the Supreme Court of Canada (R. v Feeney).

The first step in "what is unreasonable grounds" to believe an offense has been committed. First the police must know that the law was broken. This eliminates random checks and routine stops and inspections. To arbitrarily stop any citizen and say "I am searching you to find out if you possibly broke the law" is the epitome of unreasonable search. The police cannot stop you and search your car or enter your home without knowing a law was broken and then having some real factual link to you and the broken law.

When you are stopped ask: "Why?" The officer must tell you why. "I am doing a routine check" is not right or sufficient reason to stop you. Why does the officer believe you do not have a driver's license or insurance or a seat belt? He has no reason unless he knew of a real fact before he stopped you. Show him your license, insurance or buckled belt. Do not let him search the car. He will be looking inside for evidence of an offense. Keep your guns out of sight. He will be smelling for drugs or alcohol and if he "smells" either then he may arrest you for that and conduct a "search incident to arrest". But first he must have reasonable grounds to arrest. Police cannot go fishing or even deep trolling to find evidence without pre-existing reasonable grounds.

Your home is your castle. You have a right to privacy in your dwelling. That can be a house, trailer, tent, log cabin, place of business, vehicle you sleep in, vehicle parked on your property. The police cannot enter upon the land or into any structure without a warrant. The only exception is where there are "exigible grounds". "No warrant, No entry" is a mantra you must remember. Exigible grounds is a fancy work for facts of hot pursuit from off your property onto them or outside your dwelling and into it, or if the officer believes that you may run away or destroy the evidence he/she is after. Otherwise without that the officer must obtain a warrant.

The warrant must be specific as to who can enter, the time, place and what is to be searched for.

You do not have to help the officer search. That would breach section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. C-68 says you must assist a firearms officer but that may be infringement of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it needs judicial review of such a power.
Consent Searches:

Any person can at any time consent to the police searching themselves or any place. The question is why would you do that?

Looking at the consent to search it must be a free choice free from any threats or inducements. The police cannot threaten or induce the person to give consent. The circumstances must always be reviewed.

Also the court has to be clear as to who can give the consent to the police searching another person's house. Any owner of a property can consent to a search. The title of the property is important.

The police will try to say you gave consent where they can reasonably believe you consent. The mere act of inviting the police into your house, office, vehicle is an implied consent. The police will start to search. If the police spot something offensive you will be arrested and then the search incident to arrest will begin. The point is to not ask the police to come in. Stand out in the rain and snow, with the neighbours watching and with your door closed.

The scope of a consent is also important. If you clearly say "search me" that is your person, not your house. A consensual search of a garage is not the whole house. But how is this documented? By writing. Do not let the police make all the notes; you can do that too.

Consent can be withdrawn. Tell the police to leave; the consent is over. They have to leave unless they have at that time found evidence of an offense and arrest you. Then they can continue with a search incident to arrest.

If the police come in on a consent and "find nothing" or leave but really may have found "reasonable grounds" then they can use the evidence they saw to bolster the application to a judge for a search warrant. They can do that now or later; they can wait.

 

The Routine Stop And Search:

This does not exist. The police cannot detain you without grounds. Period! That is a fundamental freedom. If you are stopped, the police must tell you why. If there is no evidence of an offense then you can keep going. If you are driving you have to show license, registration and insurance but you can do that without exiting the car or opening the window. On a RIDE check, you must stop and be checked but that is a short stop.

Be sure though that the police will be giving the car a once-over with their eyes.
Police Power To Enter:
Criminal Code, Section 101(01)

No warrant, if not a dwelling house, where a police officer believes on reasonable grounds that an offense is being or has been committed with respect to firearms or ammunition AND that evidence is likely to be found on a person or in a vehicle or any place other than a dwelling house AND by reason of exigent circumstances it is not practical to obtain a warrant THEN the police officer may search without warrant that person, vehicle or place.

Note all of the pre-conditions:

reasonable grounds, not a hope or suspicion, not fishing;
not a dwelling house, ie house, apartment, tent, motorhome;
evidence is likely to be found;
exigent circumstances - hot pursuit;
not practical to get a warrant - there are now telewarrants.


Criminal Code, Section 487

Section 487 of the Criminal Code provides for these warrants. The police must convince the court that there are reasonable grounds to believe that there is in a building, receptacle or place evidence that an offense occurred or something that will be used in the commission of an offense. The police must go to court on an affidavit. If they have to they can do this by a telewarrant. This warrant is specific as to time, place, what is to be searched for and seize. These are always challenged in court.


EDWARD L. BURLEW, LL.B.
Barrister and Solicitor
16 John Street
Thornhill, Ontario L3T 1X8
1-888-GUN-LOSS

MY COMMITMENT IS VIGOROUSLY TO ADVOCATE YOUR LEGAL RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, TO PROTECT YOUR HERITAGE RIGHTS, TO HOLD TRUE TO THE TRADITIONS OF SPORTSMEN

[dave524]

 

Section 9 of the Canadian Charter of Rights states "Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned." which means that without suspicion of committing a crime you cannot be held.

 

Section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights states "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure." which means that without suspicion of committing a crime you cannot be searched.

 

Your statement that an LEO has a right to check anything without reasonable grounds to suspect you of committing a crime is spreading misinformation and falsehoods.

 

That's fine but what does crimes under the Criminal Code have to do with enforcement of Provincial Regulations ???

[grimsbylander]

The NEW and improved OFC Provincial Regulations:

 

i) CO's and Police Officers will only stop and search guilty offenders. Obviously, anyone with a OFC bumper stick is not guilty and will never be inconvenienced.

 

ii) Anyone towing a fishing boat can be stopped and inspected UNLESS there is no propeller on the boat, then it is obvious they did not fish from it or shore and should be left alone. We all know propellers are extremely difficult and time consuming to install.

 

iii) CO's and Police Officers should simply ask people if they'd been fishing. If the response is "no" then they must let them go immediately. After all, no one lies to Officers and after that it's just plain harassment.

 

iv) Officers can no longer set up inspection stations along well traveled routes used by fisherman and hunters. These techniques, though commonly used by hunters, are unfair when used by Officers. From now on, Officers will gear up in hip waders and walk the back country of Northern Ontario until they find guilty people, ask if they've been fishing and if they have a pocket full of trout, charge them. Hopefully this will not put to big a damper on their vacation time.

 

v) Inspections must be kept to an absolute minimum. Stats show that Canada is 1 or 2 away from becoming a full blown police state. In fact, Sylvester Stallone and Wesley Snipes have already applied for Canadian citizenship in order to start living the Demolition Man lifestyle.

 

vi) Anyone caught wearing tinfoil and mumbling absurdities about search warrants, "I'm not a criminal", or "Search my boat?? What is this North Korea??!!" Will immediately be put back in the home and have their fishing and internet privileges suspended..at least until their regular cycle of SSRI's take affect.

 

vi) And...if you happen to live in one of the logic-based towns of Barrie or Grimsby, just shut up, you're disrupting the natural flow of paranoia.

 

 

[fishermccann]

Thanks for that reply Grimsby it made my morning coffee so much sweeter. If you do not want to stop when directed to by a LEO thanks for that , because while he is chasing you , I will be continuing down the road.

[Sinker]

Without a doubt ,according to law, it does give them the right to stop you. I guess that is why they have the game and fish sniffing dogs with them , for what is in the storage that you don't show them. Also on Page 32 of the hunting regs , gives the power to search without a warrant, in circumstances requiring immediate action. I think that if you are about to drive away with any evidence of your law breaking ,that would constitute a circumstance requiring immediate action, and you will be searched without a warrant.

Why do you assume guilt? Is it just because I'm towing my boat??

[BillM]

Why do you assume guilt? Is it just because I'm towing my boat??

 

Why are you guys still throwing words out like 'guilty'? They aren't saying your guilty of any Fish and Game offence, they're merely doing spot checks to make sure that if you do have game/fish that the regulations are being followed.

 

Same goes with a RIDE check, do you think you're guilty as well before being pulled over?

[fishermccann]

Not guilty , it just makes it legal to stop you. The law as stated clearly gives them the right to check. Sorry Bill you type faster than I do.

Edited June 28, 2017 by fishermccann

[Sinker]

I know I'm not guilty. Read what I quoted. He assumed I needed to be searched for something I didn't do.

 

I don't have a problem with spot checks. I have a problem with being searched for NO REASON.

 

S.

[BillM]

I know I'm not guilty. Read what I quoted. He assumed I needed to be searched for something I didn't do.

 

I don't have a problem with spot checks. I have a problem with being searched for NO REASON.

 

S.

 

I think anyone would have a problem being searched for no reason.

[Sinker]

Not guilty , it just makes it legal to stop you. The law as stated clearly gives them the right to check. Sorry Bill you type faster than I do.

Sure, check, but they aren't searching thru my stuff.

 

S.

[fishermccann]

Stopped and questioned ,and stopped and searched,( without p.g.), are very different, I would think your refusal to stop, then gives them reasonable grounds to search. Just for that very reason that some folks refuse to be searched, even legally so, without grounds to , they have the sniffer dogs at many such check points, if it smells fish, ( what fishing boat doesn't), then they have the right to check ALL of your stuff.

Edited June 28, 2017 by fishermccann

[Sinker]

Stopped and questioned ,and stopped and searched,( without p.g.), are very different, I would think your refusal to stop, then gives them reasonable grounds to search. Just for that very reason that some folks refuse to be searched, even legally so, without grounds to , they have the sniffer dogs at many such check points, if it smells fish, ( what fishing boat doesn't), then they have the right to check ALL of your stuff.

You have a knack for putting words in peoples mouths. I never once said I wouldn't stop. In fact, every post I've made in this thread I said I didn't have an issue with getting stopped. I have nothing to hide, and no reason not to stop.

 

I get antsy when they stop me, ask for my paperwork which I provide, ask me any questions they want, which I answer honestly, and THEN they ask if they can look in my boat or vehicle. That is when I say NO. Sorry....and thier attitude starts. I dont like that situation. Its against my rights, and I won't let anyone get away with it. Not because I have something to hide, but because it is AGAINST MY RIGHTS! Period.

 

I bust my ass 40 hours a week to pay for my fun. I have all my paperwork in order, and I have nothing to hide. I am an honest, law abiding citizen. Why should I let anyone search my stuff?

 

S.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Sinker

[manitoubass2]

You have a knack for putting words in peoples mouths. I never once said I wouldn't stop. In fact, every post I've made in this thread I said I didn't have an issue with getting stopped. I have nothing to hide, and no reason not to stop.

 

I get antsy when they stop me, ask for my paperwork which I provide, ask me any questions they want, which I answer honestly, and THEN they ask if they can look in my boat or vehicle. That is when I say NO. Sorry....and thier attitude starts. I dont like that situation. Its against my rights, and I won't let anyone get away with it. Not because I have something to hide, but because it is AGAINST MY RIGHTS! Period.

 

I bust my ass 40 hours a week to pay for my fun. I have all my paperwork in order, and I have nothing to hide. I am an honest, law abiding citizen. Why should I let anyone search my stuff?

 

S.

/End thread ???

[fishermccann]

Sorry you took it personally . When I said 'your' I did not mean ' you' , but anyone who is reading this thread and who does not stop. To answer your question , why should you let them search your stuff, well when the LEO fulfills the legal obligations to do so, ie. reasonable and probable grounds, as determined by the officer, not by you.

Edited June 28, 2017 by fishermccann

[Lord Letto]

Am I the only one surprised to see this thread isn't locked yet?

[fishermccann]

Why? It is the most active. It seems like a very civil discussion to me. I like to hear opinions and rational that is contrary to mine. That is how you form opinions and view points.

Edited June 28, 2017 by fishermccann

[Terry]

You have a knack for putting words in peoples mouths. I never once said I wouldn't stop. In fact, every post I've made in this thread I said I didn't have an issue with getting stopped. I have nothing to hide, and no reason not to stop.

 

I get antsy when they stop me, ask for my paperwork which I provide, ask me any questions they want, which I answer honestly, and THEN they ask if they can look in my boat or vehicle. That is when I say NO. Sorry....and thier attitude starts. I dont like that situation. Its against my rights, and I won't let anyone get away with it. Not because I have something to hide, but because it is AGAINST MY RIGHTS! Period.

 

I bust my ass 40 hours a week to pay for my fun. I have all my paperwork in order, and I have nothing to hide. I am an honest, law abiding citizen. Why should I let anyone search my stuff?

 

S.

well said

Edited June 28, 2017 by Terry

[misfish]

I am just reading . Laughing,grinding and then just say what ever. LOL

 

 

Yes it,s been some what civil.

 

Just dont take it personal, and it works.

 

I think Shane hit it.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Misfish

[gaspumper]

Just like beating a dead horse over and over and over again.

[Spanky80]

You have a knack for putting words in peoples mouths. I never once said I wouldn't stop. In fact, every post I've made in this thread I said I didn't have an issue with getting stopped. I have nothing to hide, and no reason not to stop.

 

I get antsy when they stop me, ask for my paperwork which I provide, ask me any questions they want, which I answer honestly, and THEN they ask if they can look in my boat or vehicle. That is when I say NO. Sorry....and thier attitude starts. I dont like that situation. Its against my rights, and I won't let anyone get away with it. Not because I have something to hide, but because it is AGAINST MY RIGHTS! Period.

 

I bust my ass 40 hours a week to pay for my fun. I have all my paperwork in order, and I have nothing to hide. I am an honest, law abiding citizen. Why should I let anyone search my stuff?

 

S.

 

Very well said.

[Dara]

My neighbour was camping fishing a couple weeks ago. Past white river 20 miles down a bush road

 

Wardens show up Sunday morning the day they were going to leave.

One fish they didn't eat the last meal didn't have skin. Asked why not they said they couldn't eat all they prepared. Ok. Fine. So the search starts. Every pack they had. Through the tent. Into the trucks. Down to the lake 100 yards away where the boats were. Into the boats. Under seats looking for an empty beer bottle. Nothing to be found. He says they are there looking at each other wondering what the heck is going on with these guys. Are we criminals. Co says. This camp is a mess. We will be back after you leave to make sure it's spotless. No power trip there.

[Sinker]

My neighbour was camping fishing a couple weeks ago. Past white river 20 miles down a bush road

 

Wardens show up Sunday morning the day they were going to leave.

One fish they didn't eat the last meal didn't have skin. Asked why not they said they couldn't eat all they prepared. Ok. Fine. So the search starts. Every pack they had. Through the tent. Into the trucks. Down to the lake 100 yards away where the boats were. Into the boats. Under seats looking for an empty beer bottle. Nothing to be found. He says they are there looking at each other wondering what the heck is going on with these guys. Are we criminals. Co says. This camp is a mess. We will be back after you leave to make sure it's spotless. No power trip there.

See, this is the situation I do not agree with. They have no right to search through everything for no reason.

[BillM]

See, this is the situation I do not agree with. They have no right to search through everything for no reason.

 

They kinda do after seeing the one fillet with no skin on it.

[Headhunter]

My neighbour was camping fishing a couple weeks ago. Past white river 20 miles down a bush road

 

Wardens show up Sunday morning the day they were going to leave.

One fish they didn't eat the last meal didn't have skin. Asked why not they said they couldn't eat all they prepared. Ok. Fine. So the search starts. Every pack they had. Through the tent. Into the trucks. Down to the lake 100 yards away where the boats were. Into the boats. Under seats looking for an empty beer bottle. Nothing to be found. He says they are there looking at each other wondering what the heck is going on with these guys. Are we criminals. Co says. This camp is a mess. We will be back after you leave to make sure it's spotless. No power trip there.

How is this a good use of resources? Two wardens (my assumption, could have been more) are wasting time looking for what could be poachers because of one piece of fish without skin? Wouldn't their resources be better spent looking for folks raping the resource with buckets of fish? Chasing folks in outta the way places only makes sense if there has been a tip given to the MNR. Looking for offenders in much more traveled areas, with a higher number of active fisherman seems to me to be the best use of their time and money. Any fine they do levy will be peanuts compared to the cost of them actively chasing out of the way fishermen.

HH