The endless ethanol debate

[spincast]

I didn't want to hijack the seafoam debate; reading it got me going on researching the ethanol question, With a new boat and 2 new motors and my first winter coming up, the interest was somewhat heightened compared to previous years/

A couple of interesting reads I came across:

 

from Evinrude: http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

 

A 2011 article with some very interesting quotes from Mercury http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

 

one from a guy who has way more time after every outing than I do, but who knows his way around a motor way better than me: http://www.injectorrenew.com/The_Facts.html

(note - a lot of what is here is the same as in the Evinrude article)

 

and those led me to start investigating the concept of a water test kit, which led me to the statement below, which is very interesting. Of course this raises the question - if the ethanol absorbs the water, would the response of the food colouring be as described, or did this individual make a wrong turn at Albuquerque when going down the deduction highway? (this guy is into airplanes BTW)

 

 

While driving 20 miles into Mississippi to get ethanol-free gasoline for my airplane I was contemplating what must be in the blue dye that is in the Quick Check Solution kit. It occurred to me that what ever it was had to be water soluble so it would mix with the ethanol. I always check the suppliers of ethanol-free fuel before pumping any gas as I have been lied to about it. Anyway, the test kit that you add water to is a hassle and takes a few minutes to settle out. The blue Fuel-Check works great but is expensive. When I got home I got my wife’s red, blue and green food coloring out; it’s water soluble. A quick check with pint jars of ethanol-free fuel and adulterated fuel indicated that a drop of any color food coloring will dissolve and turn the adulterated fuel the same color as the food coloring. Putting a drop of food coloring in pure gasoline, the drop just goes to the bottom of the sample and rolls around there as little globules. Now I just carry a bottle of inexpensive and readily obtainable food coloring and a quart glass jar – it’s easier to get a fuel sample into – and have an instant indication of ethanol free fuel or adulterated fuel.

 

and Shell claims that the V-Power in Canada contains no Ethanol? I didn't think that was universal? Be interesting to confirm if the above article works. BTW - more than one of the reads indicated some gas stations ( qualifier: these articles were all written in the US ) have been found to add additional ethanol to improve their profitability, some to levels that were causing serious damage to motors.

2. Is Shell V-Power premium gasoline safe for all vehicles?

• Shell V-Power is effective in all gasoline-powered engines found in conventional, modern and hybrid vehicles as well as motorcycles, snowmobiles, and leisure marine vehicles.
• Tested in today’s advanced turbo-charged and direct injection engines, Shell V-Power helps resist thermal breakdown at high temperatures, actively protecting against gunk under tough engine conditions.
• Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol.

I'd be interested to hear everyone's experiences, and comments from our mechanic / DIY members on these statements

[Wagoneer]

I've heard the same rumours about shell V-power but I can't see how that is possible. Maybe a couple years ago it was true, but the even the v-power now has the label "may contain up to 10% ethanol". Usually the higher octanes actually contain more ethanol than the lower octanes. Just a cheap way to raise the octane rating.

 

But the sad fact is that we live in Canada. Our gasoline standards are lower than third world countries. All of our gas, including diesel (ESPECIALLY our diesel) is crap.

 

BTW, that guys theory doesn't make any sense. He's been sniffing more aviation fuel than what makes it into his planes.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Wagoneer

[steelhunter]

The shell station by me has labeled on pumps shell v-power gasoline contains 0% ethanol.

[cram]

Irishfield described a good/simple test on this site somewhere. I think it was something like....put a bit of water in a mason jar, mark the level of the water, fill the rest of the jar with gas, shake it up. If the water/gas separation is higher than the original line, you have ethanol in the gas (which mixed with the water, increasing it's volume). If not, you have pure gas.

Or something like that. Maybe he can chime in.

[Roy]

This thread Cram? http://ontariofishingcommunity.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74405&page=2&hl=ethanol#entry851196

[cram]

This thread Cram? http://ontariofishingcommunity.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74405&page=2&hl=ethanol&do=findComment&comment=851196

Ha, maybe. Guess it's not the same thing, but thought I remembered him describing that test on here somewhere. Or I just have a creative memory.

 

Either way, the test works on the same concept. Water absorbs the ethanol (or visa versa), and the separation line will change if there's any in the gas. You can buy kits that measure the % of ethanol by how much the level changes.

[AKRISONER]

The shell station by me has labeled on pumps shell v-power gasoline contains 0% ethanol.

 

I will confirm that Shell V power contains no ethanol. I used it in my rarely driven turbo charged car specifically for this reason.

[Terry]

you thought Wayne cause there were plane in the back ground

 

[irishfield]

Figured no point discrediting Rick's finding on the internet of using food colouring, without just testing it myself. Easy enough to do, but I did have to get out of my arm chair. I'd just bought 2 cans of cheap CTC regular this morning and had some Shell V power premium in the hangar already.

 

Took 2 clear mason jars 1/2 full of each fuel and just added a few drops of food colouring... and both did the same. The colouring went through the fuel and beaded at the bottom. Not what I expected, I had faith in the regular turning blue.

 

SO.. I grabbed another jar, put some water in it... marked my line and then added the regular fuel. And low and behold, our CTC regular has no ethanol in it!!!!

 

So if someone has a known source for thinned out gasoline, do us all a favour and try the food colouring in it and see what happens. Real science will put this to rest...

 

BTW... food colouring drops right through the 100% gas and then turns the water to blue! Imagine it will turn ethanol laden fuel blue as well, but that remains speculation at this point!

Edited September 30, 2014 by irishfield

[Bernie]

I am interested in seeing the results of this experiment. No time to do it right now.

[captpierre]

I think if you buy Premium gas at Shell, the same hose is used for the other blends that contain ethanol

 

In a gas can, you would likely get some ethanol from what was left in the hose

 

Just sayin'. Maybe not enough to make a difference.

[irishfield]

My Shell has dedicated pumps.

[davey buoy]

When I go to CTC,I put 2 litres in the truck of 91,than I fill the jerry can.Bayfield CTC has no ethanol in 91.Would like to think that wa the same for all.Your right,one hose for all.

[fishindevil]

The bottom line is "corn gas is garbage gas" !!!!! My 2012 Chevy truck is designed to run on it it even says E85 which is 15% garbage but other than my truck I don't run regular corn garbage gas in anything if I can help it in my outboard my snowblower weed water leaf blower whatever else I have I always put premium and I know that it can be deceiving for sure but I had a discussion with a a fuel rep for Canadian tire gas plus and he says that Canadian tire premium gas has no ethanol in it whatsoever but yes the station I use in Lindsay has a shared pump too so yes I guess there might be some in the hose and can cross contaminate it I know there is a sure that shows you all the stations that carry what kind of gas but I think it's cool that there is some quick & easy ways to know if it's ethanol in it thanks for all the tips & info for sure !!!!! Garbage corn gas sucks!!! It doesn't even smell like gas anymore !!!

[Burtess]

Actually E85 is 85% ethanol.... so 85% garbage lol....

 

Burt

[cram]

Tried it on Husky gas today, and the food colouring dropped to the bottom in a tight glob.

 

According to the jar + water test, there was lots of ethanol in it.

 

Edited to add: I didn't shake up the food colouring mix. Perhaps that may have made a difference.

Edited October 1, 2014 by cram

[irishfield]

Thanks for putting that myth to bed Cram! Water test continues as the method it is....

[nancur373]

Just in my own experience in my 2003 Neon. Shell V-power premium from a dedicated pump gets me over 500km to a tank and their regular gets just over 400km. Way back, I had a 1996 Cavalier that had that notorious chevy shake in the motor when idling. I called a bud who`s a GM mechanic to ask. He advised me to use premium gas and synthetic engine oil. By the second oil change she smoothed right out. Been using premium and synthetic in everything I own since.

 

Oh BTW...the Husky I stopped at the other day has ethanol in their premium as well. Drove to the nearest Shell instead.

[irishfield]

500 to 400 makes a lot of sense Newf... as 15 % ethanol in gasoline brings it's BTU's (energy content) down to about 80% of straight gas. Less BTU's per litre and you need to use more fuel to go the same speed.

Edited October 2, 2014 by irishfield

[Sinker]

I'm lucky to have gas stations with NO ethanol in any of the fuel where I live. There are 3 or 4 stations with NO ethanol.

 

Before that, I was running Shell V-power in everything.

 

I find a big difference in mileage with no ethanol fuel, similar to PURENEWF. I get an additional 100+km per tank with NO ethanol regular fuel.

 

S.

[John Bacon]

500 to 400 makes a lot of sense Newf... as 15 % ethanol in gasoline brings it's BTU's (energy content) down to about 80% of straight gas. Less BTU's per litre and you need to use more fuel to go the same speed.

 

If those numbers are correct then the ethonal will actually increase rather than decrease CO2 and other pollutants.

[AKRISONER]

go diesel

 

 

Girlfriend and I bought a TDI this year and haven't regretted it since.

 

If it comes to buying a truck im going Diesel

[Sinker]

 

If those numbers are correct then the ethonal will actually increase rather than decrease CO2 and other pollutants.

YUP!

 

I filled up my last tank away from home with ethanol fuel. 479km. Then filled up the other day with NO ethanol fuel close to home, and right now my odometer is at 570km, and I still have a 1/4 tank of gas. The mileage is worth it alone, even it that means filling with V power every tank.

 

My last vehicle was a turbo, and all i used was V power, sure it costs more to fill, but you gain it back in the mileage.

 

S.

[davey buoy]

same as my CX7,runs better on premium,as it calls for.Got caught a couple times with regular,apparently not good for the turbo.Runs so much better on ethanol free gas,my mileage is better as well.After 6 years I still need to lay off the turbo lol.When that kicks in I think I'm burning as much as a 8cyl.

[Raf]

same as my CX7,runs better on premium,as it calls for.Got caught a couple times with regular,apparently not good for the turbo.Runs so much better on ethanol free gas,my mileage is better as well.After 6 years I still need to lay off the turbo lol.When that kicks in I think I'm burning as much as a 8cyl.

 

running regular is not bad for the turbo itself, it can be bad for the engine of a turbo-equipped car due to knock (or detonation). modern day turbo cars have safety measures in place to prevent this in the form of knock sensors in case you get a batch of bad fuel. if a knock sensor detects knock, it will idiot the timing of the engine to prevent damage -- when this happens, the car will feel like a dog (slow). the reason you need higher octane fuel is because it is more resistant to knock. you can skip the rest if there's no interest

 

a not-turbo car's compression ratio is static. cars with forced induction (turbo/supercharger) have dynamic compression ratios. all a turbo does is raise the compression ratio by cramming a lot more air into the combustion chamber while your foot is in it -- higher compression ratio=more power. if you keep your foot out of it, and don't 'use' the turbo, the engine stays at it's (lower) compression. the higher the compression ratio, the higher the chance for knock, the higher the need for high octane fuel (which is more resistant to knock). so, if you were in a bind and had to use regular for whatever reason, you will be just fine if you keep your foot out of it.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Raf