Any thoughts on Canadian Health Care System?

[okumasheffield]

Due to recent events, I have started wondering how others think about the health care system we have.

 

Aside from the fact that it is free (not really IMO, isn't what the tax is for?), there seem to be lots area for improvement such as

 

- WAAAAAIT time

-> My relative has to wait for 3 weeks before seeing a specialist. (what to do before then?)

-> Even Emergency Room?!

 

It was quite upsetting & helpless feeling to wait in ER seeing others & your loves ones in pain for hours.

 

- Acute care availability

 

What are your thoughts?

[Big Cliff]

Free: no, we pay for it through the nose.

 

Improvements: Well, there are so many needed!

 

It isn't perfect for sure but we are a lot better off than many other countries in this world. I know that sitting in ER for three + hours isn't fun (in fact there have been times I thought it was just being used as a deturent) but we could be living in a country where you don't even have an ER.

 

Is the cup half full or half empty?

[fishing n autograph]

At least we don't go broke after a stay in the hospital

[moxie]

It isn't free. 42 cents of every dollar they take from us goes directly into that black hole but Canadians lose their nut when you even mention allowing a shared public/private model that would alieviate some stresses on the system. It might actually help with efficiencies if those on the public side were given some healthy competition and shown how to manage a money tree that will not last an eternity. Trees do eventually fall ill and/or die.

 

We are luckier than most on earth but don't kid yourselves. There are better sysyems out there. We have had countless opportunities over the years to make our system the envy of the planet but have failed simply due to our inability to open our minds to other options and governments inability to just do what is right for all Canadians instead of just counting votes.

 

Edit: forgot to mention. We will go broke if they continue to throw more money at it instead of fixing it.

Edited April 5, 2014 by moxie

[BillM]

If people stopped using the ER as their personal Dr, the wait times would be drastically reduced. Also, if you are waiting for hours, then you are low on the priority list and need to question if you even need to be there.

[captpierre]

Health care is run by the individual provinces not Canada. The feds help fund it and set guidelines.

 

If you are really in trouble and need urgent lifesaving care, you will get it, and fast. And some of the best in the world

Sick Kids

Sunnybrook

St Michaels

TGE

Mt Sinai

 

This urgent care will however bump less urgent cases and cause delays.

 

Where there are still unacceptable wait times is for specialists, cancer care and joint replacements

They are working on it and have set target wait times but progress is slow, unfortunately.

 

It helps to make lots of noise. Squeeky wheel ........

[Big Cliff]

If people stopped using the ER as their personal Dr, the wait times would be drastically reduced. Also, if you are waiting for hours, then you are low on the priority list and need to question if you even need to be there.

When you are sick or your child is sick and call your Dr.s office only to be told that the earliest appointment you can get is in two weeks..... Or you go to the walk in clinic and wait for 4 hours to see a Dr. only to be told to get right over to ER and they will call ahead for you (then you still wait 3 hours in ER) what else are people supposed to do?

 

I do agree that there is some abuse of the system and they do seem to do a very good job of priorityzing but I have also sat in an ER for hours when there was no one else in there so I do question the reason for some of these wait times.

[Loonietoon]

I have a friend that has migrainnes and it has been linked to the brain pushing on the neck that requires surgery and is still waiting to see a Nuero surgeon that wait could be 6 months to a year and is in constent pain and the possibility in this operation is death or continued pain or paralization and stiil has to wait to see a surgeon, I think this person should be on a priority list with the severity of this problem, Am I right or wrong????

[porkpie]

I think we have things better than most do in the world, and that there is a lot of unnecessary whining that goes on. Our standard of living and health care would blow people's minds in some developing Countries. If a person has enough pocket money to feed their kids good food, cloth them, and provide them with life's necessities then on top of it own a house or a condo, a vehicle etc, then a boat and stack a pile of fishing poles and frills on top, it's my firm opinion that they are living very well and don't have a single thing to complain about, much less wait times. Anything as huge as the health care system has flaws. My mom just went through it, and it wasn't perfect, but it was pretty darn good! I think in this Country where I was born and raised we have another major issue and that is self entitlement that causes us to complain when our needs aren't met as quick as possible. If folks had ever seen poverty (even in our own borders) they would be less likely to complain. I consider myself extremely lucky to have a decent job and my kids are well looked after, I have decent health care even if I'm taxed for it ( look up home surgery on YouTube they are all American) own a home, a vehicle and a boat, as well as a pile of fishing gear. My life is good, even though I've had more than one six hour wait in the ER. There are some exceptions to this, where people fall through the cracks no doubt, but overall we are doing pretty good!

Edited April 5, 2014 by porkpie

[Big Cliff]

I have a friend that has migrainnes and it has been linked to the brain pushing on the neck that requires surgery and is still waiting to see a Nuero surgeon that wait could be 6 months to a year and is in constent pain and the possibility in this operation is death or continued pain or paralization and stiil has to wait to see a surgeon, I think this person should be on a priority list with the severity of this problem, Am I right or wrong????

Right!

 

Anytime someone is suffering there needs to be some sort of facility in place to do what ever is necessary to help them. My wife was in ICU for 6 weeks just waiting to get a bed in a cardiac unit so she could get a bypass operation. That was a life and death situation and she almost didn't make it. I had to get on the phone to the Ministry of Health and threaten to go to every media I could find that would listen before anyone would get off their butts and get her a bed.

[DRIFTER_016]

It's not perfect but is a heck of a lot better than what they have in the US!!!

Just got back from Florida and while there my dad got sick and had to be hospitalized.

What a joke!!! All they are trying to do is use up as much of your available insurance as possible by ordering useless tests that have nothing to do with what the problem is.

My dad was in for 36 hours and they rang up $17K in charges!!!

 

After all the useless tests the verdict....................... dehydration.

[Dozer]

Although we have it better than a lot this is a crap system. People die because they have to wait, older people receive less care because they prioritize younger patients, there are other ways of dealing with certain procedures/operations that we don't do here in Canada. Uncle needed to have a growth removed and there was a specific, unobtrusive way of doing it. No one in Ontario does it this way, or something along the lines of we use the easier method, which leave nasty scarring on the neck. Ended up going to the States and shelling out good dollars outta his own pocket to get it done neatly. Its not the best system but its hard to get this perfect and we actually don't have it too bad here. 4 hour waits are the least of our concerns! If you want good service better show up to the hospital with $5,000 ( even more depending on the severity of your situation ) cash in your pocket and start greasing.

[John Bacon]

I have never really found wait times to be a major problem when using the emergency department of a hospital. I did have one incident recently when my son had to wait for an X-Ray because they didn't have a tech on site. An emergency department should always be staffed. For the most part we have been treated within a reasonable amount of time.

 

I understand that certain procedure do have very long waiting times. But neither I, nor my family have experienced this.

 

It is definitely not perfect; but it is not the disaster that critics would like us to believe.

[lookinforwalleye]

This should be a interesting thread!!!!

 

 

What I have found out recently if your really really sick with a life threatening condition you will get looked after real quick....there will be more doctors,surgeons,specialist,technicians etc. around than you can shake a stick at, I have seen more healthcare professionals of all stripes in the last 10 months than I have seen in the previous 50++ years.

 

And I will say this with all it`s problems I don`t think you would want to be sick anywhere else...in my case if it wasn`t for the system that people love to bash so much I would probably be sitting on the corner of University and Elm with a tin cup in my hand!!!

 

If you hit the emerg with a little boo boo expect to wait!!!

Edited April 5, 2014 by lookinforwalleye

[captpierre]

I think we have things better than most do in the world, and that there is a lot of unnecessary whining that goes on. Our standard of living and health care would blow people's minds in some developing Countries. If a person has enough pocket money to feed their kids good food, cloth them, and provide them with life's necessities then on top of it own a house or a condo, a vehicle etc, then a boat and stack a pile of fishing poles and frills on top, it's my firm opinion that they are living very well and don't have a single thing to complain about, much less wait times. Anything as huge as the health care system has flaws. My mom just went through it, and it wasn't perfect, but it was pretty darn good! I think in this Country where I was born and raised we have another major issue and that is self entitlement that causes us to complain when our needs aren't met as quick as possible. If folks had ever seen poverty (even in our own borders) they would be less likely to complain. I consider myself extremely lucky to have a decent job and my kids are well looked after, I have decent health care even if I'm taxed for it ( look up home surgery on YouTube they are all American) own a home, a vehicle and a boat, as well as a pile of fishing gear. My life is good, even though I've had more than one six hour wait in the ER. There are some exceptions to this, where people fall through the cracks no doubt, but overall we are doing pretty good!

 

for a guy called PorkPie.....well said

[Dozer]

lookinforwalleye - lotta people are disappointed in the system. Lotta stories will be told and lots to be revealed... I hope this doesn't get locked because people start fighting...

[BillM]

lookinforwalleye - lotta people are disappointed in the system. Lotta stories will be told and lots to be revealed... I hope this doesn't get locked because people start fighting...

 

Lots of people are satisfied with the system as well. I was in and out of Oriliia after I put a hook through my finger in about 30 mins.. This included triage, a short wait in the room and the hook removal. Was back fishing in no time. Where other people there when I got there waiting? You bet.. should they have been there because they've got a cold or their kid has the flu? Probably not, so go figure they wait.

[irishfield]

I've scouted it out as well Gord... and I think University and Gerrard would be a better corner for us! The "young" lady already has the parking lot pay spot on Murray taken!

 

It ain't perfect, but it works.

[kickingfrog]

"Ain't perfect" is right, but it is much better then the alternatives. The same has been said of democracy.

[Moosebunk]

This whole topic has to be the biggest can of worms for me, maybe especially today...

 

My day yesterday went...

 

I walked into Hell at 7:00am. Actually I was late, the nurse that was to cover that overlap called in sick the night before but, another co-worker helped me out. I took my youngest daughter to work with me and planned to sneak out 10 minutes at 9:00am to drop her at school... Anyways...

 

The ER is already near full and half these patients are what I'd call "heavy," meaning very sick or, needing much done. The regular nurse I was to be working with called in sick (both sick nurses work two jobs, one had completed six 12 hours in a row ending on two nights, because coverage EVERYWHERE seems to be an issue these days) The replacement for the day is not an ER nurse. She's a wonderfully helpful warm body who can work very hard, but she needs supervision. Basically between us two, were at 75% staffing.

 

My break didn't come ti'll 3:15pm. It was hard to sneak out for a leak and I ate a yogurt on the fly sometime around 11:00am. The school called at 1:00pm hoping I'd come to pick up my daughter (Bren out of town) as, they're barely competent enough to administer Tylenol at the schools these days. To their credit though, Leah (and now this morning Summer) both likely have food poisoning from some bad pizza and are upstairs sleeping off poopy times. I tell the school I'll try to get there, but at the time I was actually and honestly in the middle of keeping an active heart-attack patient alive, his blood pressure 54/30 with severe moaning pains. This one patient needs at least one Doctor's constant time, and my own to treat with life saving drugs and measures, thus leaving the rest of the ER to one non-ER nurse and at this point a very casual ER-pediatric RN in to cover our lunch breaks.

 

During this, the waiting room is full. EVERY person in there has a complaint and the wait time has stretched to about five hours for the lesser urgent. Half of them are in pain but not one in my opinion is close to dying. There's two broken bones, a gnarly Abdomen painer, two children with respiratory illnesses, two measly non-emergent patients, a with-drawling drug user, a bladder infection... and these are the one's I know of. One is lying on the floor and wretching, while the boiling mad husband of that Abdo painer is in my face the second I show it, angry we're not doing something and they have waited an hour now. That extra pediatric ER nurse in time is observing the heart-attack patient, while my non-ER partner is helping the Doctor see other patients in-between treating the guy dying. At this point specialists need to be consulted, ambulances arranged, we need accepting Ortho at one center for a fella in the department who fell off a roof and needs surgery, we need the Heart Institute for the MI patient, we must consider admission or transfer for the complicated Cancer patient, we need to get a migraine protocol up and running for a head-acher, we need to follow-up Ultrasound on a leg clot, ohhh and crap, there's nobody to manage triage and we gotta take care of that too. The elevator is broken and the first hospital employee to notice comes to ask ME while I'm on the phone with medics to call maintenance... somebody needs a potty, another a Snellen test and repeat vitals, bloodwork, the local pharmacy wants a stupid CPSO number to fill a script, finance needs you to submit a bill for crutches, medical records wants you to recall if you sent that patient with a headache two weeks ago to Neurology at the Q or the Civic? You lift your head, look around and notice other hospital staff is visiting in the hallways, laughing at jokes and lining up in the cafeteria to sure to get their 15-minutes for coffee and full lunch breaks as well. The people in the ER's working, are juggling many other realities though... Yesterday that was me, a Doc and one other.

 

What the ER's really need the most is... More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. Ohhhhhhh... and it needs all those people in the waiting room who are alive and breathing, all those people who will many times over in any given week or month wait an hour or two for their kids dental appointments, their oil changes, their food and wine to be served, their pizza to be delivered, their pharmacy orders to be processed, their paychecks to come every second Friday, their Cabela's order to cross the border... we need those people to sit and wait for what's worth waiting for more than ANYTHING else in their lives... their health. Just sit down and wait, it shouldn't kill you. We need those people in the waiting room crying about the waiting to stop crying about waiting, and the ones who are crying because of illness or injury to do their best to understand that we want and will see you as soon as humanly possible, until then, you'll have to wait. Please just cry later to your local elected officials, not us. This would surely help wait times in the ER greatly. For you, for me, for everyone. Because it doesn't matter what ER it is in Ontario, the people in their are working their arses off even if their finally seen getting that chance to sit down and breathe a minute. The people in their are putting themselves in harms way every shift they take, to take care of people under the system that (slow or not) is there for you.

 

To think too, Government wants to lower our shift premiums this bargaining round and give no raises, paying us less and probably paying us less than teachers. Hell, more than half our staff dealing with the sick don't even qualify for one day of paid sick time, ever!!! And if we take more than 3-days (unpaid) off sick without a note, they can investigate and discipline. Full-time nurses with more than a decade (even two decades) of experience are still not being permitted vacations between May and October, March Break or Christmas, with that kind of time given from their lives. Working every second weekend, mixed bags of days and nights for their work life. Sit down and wait please.

 

Days like yesterday, juggling all that load and then some, running out finally to pick up my girl from school to bring her to my work, to look after her and pretty well every patient in the department, to even asking a Doc on his day off to come in and help, put a nurse 45-minutes away on "stand-by" from her day off, to arrange and pack our one Doctor on a patient transfer, to documenting much of this, to facing a waiting room with a few hissing people complaining we're not fast enough... Get it??? RANT OVER.

 

At 3:15pm I slipped from the department when I knew not one person was going to die, to take 15 minutes and have lunch. A yogurt in 8 hours of running, I was shaking hungry, and today just bagged because of it. Sneaking into a quiet room with Leah I took her temperature finally, then went to get some Tylenol while eating my sub. Walking by the waiting room a patient says, "must be nice to have time to eat, I've been sitting here three hours and I'm hungry too."

 

Some people left. The one's that did weren't "emergencies" anyways. The sick got treated. The second Doctor showed up before the extra lunch-coverage nurse went home. For the next two hours we double-timed it quick to clear what we could of the "waiting" waiting room. Me, a Doc, and that helpful non-ER nurse saw 30 some patients or so. Got home to PB and toast dinner at 9:00pm.

 

Days like this are not unusual in any ER and oftentimes the staff pull 3-4 shifts like this in a row. Writing this as an example will hopefully help anyone realize that, when it's your turn to wait in any ER, do so quietly and respectfully. The system for sure needs help in this sector of healthcare, but the one's on the front-line don't need to hear that when they're busy in the trenches doing what they can to keep it going as best it can.

[kickingfrog]

Wow bunk, I'm guessing that's closer to the norm most days/nights.

[woodenboater]

If people stopped using the ER as their personal Dr, the wait times would be drastically reduced. Also, if you are waiting for hours, then you are low on the priority list and need to question if you even need to be there.

 

^ this sums it up. find a gp or a walk in.

[woodenboater]

This whole topic has to be the biggest can of worms for me, maybe especially today...

 

My day yesterday went...

 

I walked into Hell at 7:00am. Actually I was late, the nurse that was to cover that overlap called in sick the night before but, another co-worker helped me out. I took my youngest daughter to work with me and planned to sneak out 10 minutes at 9:00am to drop her at school... Anyways...

 

The ER is already near full and half these patients are what I'd call "heavy," meaning very sick or, needing much done. The regular nurse I was to be working with called in sick (both sick nurses work two jobs, one had completed six 12 hours in a row ending on two nights, because coverage EVERYWHERE seems to be an issue these days) The replacement for the day is not an ER nurse. She's a wonderfully helpful warm body who can work very hard, but she needs supervision. Basically between us two, were at 75% staffing.

 

My break didn't come ti'll 3:15pm. It was hard to sneak out for a leak and I ate a yogurt on the fly sometime around 11:00am. The school called at 1:00pm hoping I'd come to pick up my daughter (Bren out of town) as, they're barely competent enough to administer Tylenol at the schools these days. To their credit though, Leah (and now this morning Summer) both likely have food poisoning from some bad pizza and are upstairs sleeping off poopy times. I tell the school I'll try to get there, but at the time I was actually and honestly in the middle of keeping an active heart-attack patient alive, his blood pressure 54/30 with severe moaning pains. This one patient needs at least one Doctor's constant time, and my own to treat with life saving drugs and measures, thus leaving the rest of the ER to one non-ER nurse and at this point a very casual ER-pediatric RN in to cover our lunch breaks.

 

During this, the waiting room is full. EVERY person in there has a complaint and the wait time has stretched to about five hours for the lesser urgent. Half of them are in pain but not one in my opinion is close to dying. There's two broken bones, a gnarly Abdomen painer, two children with respiratory illnesses, two measly non-emergent patients, a with-drawling drug user, a bladder infection... and these are the one's I know of. One is lying on the floor and wretching, while the boiling mad husband of that Abdo painer is in my face the second I show it, angry we're not doing something and they have waited an hour now. That extra pediatric ER nurse in time is observing the heart-attack patient, while my non-ER partner is helping the Doctor see other patients in-between treating the guy dying. At this point specialists need to be consulted, ambulances arranged, we need accepting Ortho at one center for a fella in the department who fell off a roof and needs surgery, we need the Heart Institute for the MI patient, we must consider admission or transfer for the complicated Cancer patient, we need to get a migraine protocol up and running for a head-acher, we need to follow-up Ultrasound on a leg clot, ohhh and crap, there's nobody to manage triage and we gotta take care of that too. The elevator is broken and the first hospital employee to notice comes to ask ME while I'm on the phone with medics to call maintenance... somebody needs a potty, another a Snellen test and repeat vitals, bloodwork, the local pharmacy wants a stupid CPSO number to fill a script, finance needs you to submit a bill for crutches, medical records wants you to recall if you sent that patient with a headache two weeks ago to Neurology at the Q or the Civic? You lift your head, look around and notice other hospital staff is visiting in the hallways, laughing at jokes and lining up in the cafeteria to sure to get their 15-minutes for coffee and full lunch breaks as well. The people in the ER's working, are juggling many other realities though... Yesterday that was me, a Doc and one other.

 

What the ER's really need the most is... More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. More manpower. Ohhhhhhh... and it needs all those people in the waiting room who are alive and breathing, all those people who will many times over in any given week or month wait an hour or two for their kids dental appointments, their oil changes, their food and wine to be served, their pizza to be delivered, their pharmacy orders to be processed, their paychecks to come every second Friday, their Cabela's order to cross the border... we need those people to sit and wait for what's worth waiting for more than ANYTHING else in their lives... their health. Just sit down and wait, it shouldn't kill you. We need those people in the waiting room crying about the waiting to stop crying about waiting, and the ones who are crying because of illness or injury to do their best to understand that we want and will see you as soon as humanly possible, until then, you'll have to wait. Please just cry later to your local elected officials, not us. This would surely help wait times in the ER greatly. For you, for me, for everyone. Because it doesn't matter what ER it is in Ontario, the people in their are working their arses off even if their finally seen getting that chance to sit down and breathe a minute. The people in their are putting themselves in harms way every shift they take, to take care of people under the system that (slow or not) is there for you.

 

To think too, Government wants to lower our shift premiums this bargaining round and give no raises, paying us less and probably paying us less than teachers. Hell, more than half our staff dealing with the sick don't even qualify for one day of paid sick time, ever!!! And if we take more than 3-days (unpaid) off sick without a note, they can investigate and discipline. Full-time nurses with more than a decade (even two decades) of experience are still not being permitted vacations between May and October, March Break or Christmas, with that kind of time given from their lives. Working every second weekend, mixed bags of days and nights for their work life. Sit down and wait please.

 

Days like yesterday, juggling all that load and then some, running out finally to pick up my girl from school to bring her to my work, to look after her and pretty well every patient in the department, to even asking a Doc on his day off to come in and help, put a nurse 45-minutes away on "stand-by" from her day off, to arrange and pack our one Doctor on a patient transfer, to documenting much of this, to facing a waiting room with a few hissing people complaining we're not fast enough... Get it??? RANT OVER.

 

At 3:15pm I slipped from the department when I knew not one person was going to die, to take 15 minutes and have lunch. A yogurt in 8 hours of running, I was shaking hungry, and today just bagged because of it. Sneaking into a quiet room with Leah I took her temperature finally, then went to get some Tylenol while eating my sub. Walking by the waiting room a patient says, "must be nice to have time to eat, I've been sitting here three hours and I'm hungry too."

 

Some people left. The one's that did weren't "emergencies" anyways. The sick got treated. The second Doctor showed up before the extra lunch-coverage nurse went home. For the next two hours we double-timed it quick to clear what we could of the "waiting" waiting room. Me, a Doc, and that helpful non-ER nurse saw 30 some patients or so. Got home to PB and toast dinner at 9:00pm.

 

Days like this are not unusual in any ER and oftentimes the staff pull 3-4 shifts like this in a row. Writing this as an example will hopefully help anyone realize that, when it's your turn to wait in any ER, do so quietly and respectfully. The system for sure needs help in this sector of healthcare, but the one's on the front-line don't need to hear that when they're busy in the trenches doing what they can to keep it going as best it can.

 

Thank you Drew, it's important to hear first hand accounts of ER and how things can cascade. I've never complained while waiting with family in ER, other than what's on tv. Sister was an RN at East General so heard enough. Front line hospital staff do need to be paid better and to have our greatest respect.

[adempsey]

I have nothing to compare the Canadian Health Care system to, but I do know lives are being saved. However, anyone who's spent any time at the hospital knows that it could be A LOT better. The constant budget cuts and mismanagement of funds are some of the biggest issues. Let's start with all those overpaid ineffective administrators at most hospitals. The CEO of the hospital here made over $500,000 a year. Why? Why is it in Ontario each hospital still has a board of directors when they are not needed? (Although, I am not sure the LHINs would do any better). No money to hire more nurses? Well, let's just fill those shifts with current staff and pay them time and a half. That's the logic we're dealing with. Just like in the government, many hospital administrators are completely ineffective at the best of times. Can you imagine what it's like in the current cash strapped environment.

 

That's just one part of a large problem. There are issues with the doctors and the unions too.

 

Ultimately, our government, and everything it has it's fingers in, is a complete disaster. As absurd as it sounds, if things with the government and economy continue on the current path, having some type of revolution within the next 100 years wouldn't surprise me.

[manitoubass2]

Some people need to give their heads a shake. 2 weeks ago i watched a young mother call ER in advance to see her sick daughter. Sniffling, runny nose, cough and a fever. I told her your daughter has a cold, take her home and get a dose of ibuprophen in her and let her rest. Nope, she's going to ER because she cant afford ibuprophen and want to get it via prescription???? Are you kidding me???? I went home and grabbed some for her. I couldn't believe she was actually gonna do that! Anyhow, i think the government screws up most things and it doesn't surprise me one bit. Last people I'd ever blame is the staff(like what bunk mentioned). These people basically give their life to help ours. The very definition of remarkable citizens. One of my good friends is a nurse and its amazing to see the commitment and enthusiasm he shows to helping people. If our whole society acted more like these people the world would be such an awesome place