Guiding?

[JohnF]

A couple of passing comments to Solopaddler on a current thread got me thinking about this guiding business. And I don't mean me, unless someone is unsure of their way in the wonderful world of real estate.

 

But that's a perfect analogy. I've spent years learning more than the average realtor about the business, to the point where I now prostitute myself to teach real estate hopefuls preparing for their licenses and licensed realtors wanting to better themselves. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it. I worked hard to acquire that knowledge and I figure I deserve to be compensated for that effort. And I'm reasonably sure the people who take my classes feel they get their money's worth.

 

So how come more accomplished fisherpersons like Mike (Solopaddler) aren't getting something back for the wealth of knowledge they share with the rest of us? I'm only using Mike as an example (hope you don't mind) because his name was mentioned in this regard.

 

I know a few here are doing that, some to a greater degree than others, and no one seems to begrudge the full bore charter guys their due. In fact there's a lot of positive support and promotion for some of them right here on the group. I know of others, like Garry2rs, who use guiding to help pay for boat gas and some tackle, and the folks who do commission him get way more than their money's worth. I learned more on his boat in a few hours than I've learned by trial and error, even with the advantage of OFC as a resource, in several years of fishing alone. Having seen what one gets for the money I gotta say it's a bargain for anyone wanting to fish from a Ranger bassboat, learn an awful lot about fishing the Kawarthas, and be coached in the fundamentals of casting with a spinning reel or baitcaster. And I'm sure there are lots of other folks here just as accomplished and accommodating as Garry.

 

But back to my question. Why aren't more people like Solopaddler selling their bodies and minds to fishermen? It's obvious from his reports that he has a wealth of knowledge about fishing. And he knows how to find fish. His steelheading reports recently are ample proof of that. Seems to me it would be bonus for tyro fishermen like me to feel comfortable about asking guys like Mike and Garry to squire me around for a day or more, teaching me to do it right, putting me on fish and making my fishing a lot more fun. And I'd feel comfortable in asking simply because I'd be prepared to pay for their time and expertise.

 

The problem these guys always come up with is that they feel uncomfortable making a business out of their pleasure, and of charging someone who might become a friend, etc etc. That's actually wrong headed because it's exactly the same rationale I might apply for not asking for their help, because I don't want to be putting some near stranger on the spot to do me a favour. Why should he?

 

As far as I'm concerned these guys like Garry & Mike owe it to themselves to put a fair price on this knowledge and skill they've acquired. They've spent far more time & money than the average angler trying and replacing equipment and tackle, travelling to the faraway spots, passing up overtime to go fishing, etc. Now they're in a position to share that wealth with those of us who didn't invest in the same way, so why not get compensated?

 

Any thoughts?

 

JF

Edited December 6, 2009 by JohnF

[irishfield]

Because when you take any hobby and make it a business it usually takes the glow off of things! I call my airplane business the "hobby that went to hell" for a reason!

[solopaddler]

Actually I think it's a pretty good idea. My wife has been pestering me to make a bit more money which would equate into less fishing for me.

Guiding is an attractive option.

 

(Ironically enough it's something I've been thinking about for a while now.)

[Spiel]

I really wish you'd waited till after I've had an outing with Mike before you'd suggested this John.

[canadian_copper]

THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND MANY HAVE ASKED ME FOR YRS TO DO IT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT IT TOO SINCE I GET 5 MONTHS A YR OFF BUT 1 THING HAS STOPPED ME FROM DOIN IT.

YOUR PAYIN ME TO PUT U ON FISH. SO THAT MEANS I GOTTA TAKE U TO MY GOOD SPOTS SO I KNOW FOR SURE YOU'LL BE INTO THEM.

PROBLEM IS NOW U KNOW MY SPOTS. I COME BACK 2 DAYS LATER WITH SOMEONE ELSE AND THE GUY I JUST TOOK OUT 2 DAYS AGO IS THERE WITH 2 OR 3 OF HIS PALS.AND IT JUST GROWS FROM THERE.NOT MANY SECRETS LEFT OUT IN THE EAST AND WITH FISHING PRESSURE GOIN THREW THE ROOF NOW IM NOT HELPIN KILL WHATS LEFT OF THIS DEPELETING FISHERY.

LAKE FISHIN IS DIFF INDEED.

GOTTA SAY ID DIE TO FISH SOME OF THOSE WATERS JUST FOR SENERY ALONE WITH SOLO BUT KNOWIN HOW I AM NOT GONNA ASK LOL

AWESOME OUTINGS BY THE WAY BRO.

[StoneFly]

Two years ago,...when I was still a relative Newb to CP fishing,...I kept seeing all these posts from stateside,...with like 20-30 fish per day while up here we were getting 1, 2 or 3 per day,...and it was a dry fall....anyways,..I posted something like 'Willing to pay for guiding to the U.S' and I got 2 replies,....one from Louis who wanted to charge me like $300 or so,..and one from Mike who said,..Yo bud,...share the gas and lets see if we can make it work....I never ended up doing either,..and I think Mike thinks Im a Loogan now...lol,..due to my off the cuff sarcastic humour that some get, some dont,....but thats ok,..anyone who has met me on the river knows Im a good guy and I can fish well.

 

I know another guide who frequents this board sometimes,...and I fish with him often,....I think the general consesus for Chronic steelheaders not wanting to become guides or charge for it is as follows:

 

1) they dont want to give away their spots to complete strangers,...(its not all that lucrative)

2) they feel bad asking for $$ when they feel great about giving someone the Joy that comes from that first Fish etc.

 

Im no guide,..although I have thought about it as something for the future as I just keep getting better at it,...but I took a Newbie guy out recently and we had a stellar day and he actually out fished me,....I felt GREAT about him experiencing what he did and I really didnt know him at all before....but the thought never really entered my mnd to charge him for it.

 

So i think there is a difference between Boat guiding and River guiding,...the lakes are alot Bigger than the rivers and arguabley see 1000x the pressure. Besides with a boat and down riggers etc etc...I think it is easier to charge people.

 

that being said,..Im going to venture in to Huron Tribs next year and I would NOT be against paying someone to show me and a buddy or 2 the spots and holes etc....as long as he drives,...lol

 

Just my $0.02

[Fishnwire]

My buddy who guided said he hated it. He told me the pressure to put his clients on fish was tremendous and took a lot of the fun out of the whole process. If you go fishing with your buddies and don't get fish it's no big deal...If you accept money to take guys out and they do poorly, that's a different story. He would often spend his evenings pre-fishing just so that he would have something for shore lunch.

 

I guess it depends on your clientele and their expectations. After he gave up guiding for walleye he still would take occasional bookings for muskie. He told me muskie fisherman didn't get bent out of shape and ask for refunds when the fishing was not very good whereas walleye fisherman sometimes did.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Fishnwire

[JohnF]

Because when you take any hobby and make it a business it usually takes the glow off of things! I call my airplane business the "hobby that went to hell" for a reason!

 

Your point's well taken and in many cirumstances I'd probably be inclined to agree but it seems to me that sportfishing may be a little bit different. I'd probably agree that working riggers and rods on a charter boat trolling around a lake could cut into the pleasure quotient, but it isn't quite the same deal when you can use only one rod per person. At least half the benefit for clients on the river might well be seeing the guide actually fishing, watching how he casts, retrieves, finds and works spots, controls the line on a drift, etc.

 

And there's a certain amount of encouragement in seeing the guide hauling in fish. At least you now know they're there and that you just have to do the right things to attract them. I know for sure that I've learned as much by just watching how Garry does things as listening to his explanations. In that case I pay attention to what kind of rod and reel he's using for the different kinds of baits, how he presents them, how he retrieves, etc.

 

And I'm sure there's plenty to be learned by copying a human fishfinder like Mike on the river. I like the idea of getting out with someone who can tell me the best baits to use for the day, check the way my gear is rigged, show me the spots to fish and perhaps best of all take me to places I may never find on my own.

 

JF

[Kinger]

I would love to make a career of guiding on the St. Mary's. Its like heaven. Come fish for your salmon grand slam Atlantic, Coho, Pink, Chinook! Even Pinook!

[Guest gbfisher]

"So how come more accomplished fisherpersons like Mike (Solopaddler) aren't getting something back for the wealth of knowledge they share with the rest of us? I'm only using Mike as an example (hope you don't mind) because his name was mentioned in this regard."

 

How do you figure they don't get anything back for their efforts? and why would you give the things you like best away?

Almost every person I know who uses their favourite passed time for money usually ends up hating it because it becomes WORK!!!!

[Kinger]

What if it isn't just a pass time?

Edited December 6, 2009 by Kinger

[Twocoda]

Almost every person I know who uses their favourite passed time for money usually ends up hating it because it becomes WORK!!!!

 

 

i couldnt agree more...

 

Question:

 

what do you do with an American Doctor (with a HUGE attitude no sense of humour) that cant land ANY fish ???? (6 hook ups )

 

Answer:

 

Leave him on an island and quit guiding

 

ps...the island was in a river so his swim was only maybe ten minutes long but im sure he had lots of time to work out his frustrations for the wet 45 minute walk back to the camp.....

 

All it takes is one bad apple to ruin a dream of pleasure

[misfish]

Almost every person I know who uses their favourite passed time for money usually ends up hating it because it becomes WORK!!!!

 

Once you show them the wheres and hows,(the customer),they tell another,which tells another.There goes those spots. This of course,IMO.

 

Mikes a great angler,but why give away?

[StoneFly]

"So how come more accomplished fisherpersons like Mike (Solopaddler) aren't getting something back for the wealth of knowledge they share with the rest of us? I'm only using Mike as an example (hope you don't mind) because his name was mentioned in this regard."

 

How do you figure they don't get anything back for their efforts? and why would you give the things you like best away?

Almost every person I know who uses their favourite passed time for money usually ends up hating it because it becomes WORK!!!!

 

My guess is Mike Gets Alot Back....it just may not be measured in $$$. that said,....if anyone has the ability, skill and dedication not too mention percerverence,..it would be him ....and I dont even know the guy!!!

 

I have run the numbers and done the math,...and I dont think you can make a great living out of just river guiding,....but maybe Im wrong....Mike,..If you do it,..Keep it Stateside will ya,...I will pay also,..even if I have to pay extra,..LMAO...

 

PS,..one thing I though about,...would you have to be constantly babying the Guideeeees? Like retying for them etc,....what about their gear? I would think you could only get newbs with no gear to pay a good price to make a living,...

Edited December 6, 2009 by StoneFly

[Twocoda]

..even if I have to pay extra,..LMAO...

 

if you pay extra for your first three outings the 4th one is free...

[StoneFly]

if you pay extra for your first three outings the 4th one is free...

 

Well I really only need one,...lol...But If Im paying,.. Im making sarcastic obnoxious jokes the whole time...lol

[HTHM]

i couldnt agree more...

 

Question:

 

what do you do with an American Doctor (with a HUGE attitude no sense of humour) that cant land ANY fish ???? (6 hook ups )

 

Answer:

 

Leave him on an island and quit guiding

 

ps...the island was in a river so his swim was only maybe ten minutes long but im sure he had lots of time to work out his frustrations for the wet 45 minute walk back to the camp.....

 

All it takes is one bad apple to ruin a dream of pleasure

That must have been very satisfying!

[timmeh]

THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND MANY HAVE ASKED ME FOR YRS TO DO IT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT IT TOO SINCE I GET 5 MONTHS A YR OFF BUT 1 THING HAS STOPPED ME FROM DOIN IT.

YOUR PAYIN ME TO PUT U ON FISH. SO THAT MEANS I GOTTA TAKE U TO MY GOOD SPOTS SO I KNOW FOR SURE YOU'LL BE INTO THEM.

PROBLEM IS NOW U KNOW MY SPOTS. I COME BACK 2 DAYS LATER WITH SOMEONE ELSE AND THE GUY I JUST TOOK OUT 2 DAYS AGO IS THERE WITH 2 OR 3 OF HIS PALS.AND IT JUST GROWS FROM THERE.NOT MANY SECRETS LEFT OUT IN THE EAST AND WITH FISHING PRESSURE GOIN THREW THE ROOF NOW IM NOT HELPIN KILL WHATS LEFT OF THIS DEPELETING FISHERY.

LAKE FISHIN IS DIFF INDEED.

GOTTA SAY ID DIE TO FISH SOME OF THOSE WATERS JUST FOR SENERY ALONE WITH SOLO BUT KNOWIN HOW I AM NOT GONNA ASK LOL

AWESOME OUTINGS BY THE WAY BRO.

 

 

I think this is bang on. I would be willing to bet this is what stops many people from offering to guide. It's one thing to take a friend out who appreciates fishing the same way you do (and will keep your spots quite), and another to take a complete stranger.

 

John, I see where you're coming from with it being great to learn from a guide. Personally I plan on taking up fly fishing next spring and will hire a guide or 2 to help me get started. And I won't care how many fish I actually catch myself, I just want to learn from that person. BUT I suspect most people who hire guides aren't really in it for the learning, first and foremost they want to catch fish. And a lot of people want to take as many fish home as they can. And you have to be willing to cater to these people, even if your attitude is completely different. And so you need to take them to your best spots to ensure they do well. And what happens then....

 

Once you take someone to your best spots they tell people, and they tell people who tell a couple more people, and then you're spending your own fishing time finding new spots to constantly take clients to, because your old hotspots aren't the same. As well I'd bet that people who spend the time and $ earning the knowledge to become a great fisherman understand the importance of taking care of our resources and recognize the need to practice C & R or selective harvest. I wonder how these guys would enjoy taking people out who are really only interested in taking a limit home. How would you feel taking 2 guys to your best steelhead spot on river X and watch them take their limit home. And 2 days later when you come back and they're there with 2 buddies all with the kill chains out.

[danc]

I think that it depends on where and what you're guiding for. Lake Ontario (or Superior in my case) Salmon and Lake Trout charters are fine with me. By the way. Is there a difference between a guided trip and a charter?? When the internet became mainstream, and I be came interested in it, I built a web page on Nipigon Brook Trout fishing. Just for fun. The offers that I had for guiding were non stop. I refused them all simply because selling my spots and techniques after 25 years of learning them by myself weren't worth a few hundred bucks (and I'm being modest here. I had offers in the quad digits). I did see one person guiding where I fish. And I've seen his client back every year since. Guiding on a remote fly in location is fine. You know that the clients aren't going to be back with their friends every year and rape your lake.

[Dara]

I know a pro bass guy up here that guides the river for bass and walleye.

He won't take locals out, only out of towners.

Doesn't want to give his spots away to guys that just want to use him to learn where to go.

[DRIFTER_016]

I have spent most of the last 25 years guiding and after a while it does tend to lose it's zest.

I can count on one hand the number of guests I wanted to drown though. That's not too bad for 25 years.

Heck when I was living in Southern Ontario there was more than that on any day just driving to work!!!!

Even though I have done a lot of guiding I would never guide rivers for steelies, way too much competition for spots.

It does make me really happy when I put a client on his/her fish of a lifetime though.

I get as much enjoyment seeing the client catch a bigun as if I had caught it myself.

[Radnine]

As far as I'm concerned these guys like Garry & Mike owe it to themselves to put a fair price on this knowledge and skill they've acquired. They've spent far more time & money than the average angler trying and replacing equipment and tackle, travelling to the faraway spots, passing up overtime to go fishing, etc. Now they're in a position to share that wealth with those of us who didn't invest in the same way, so why not get compensated?

 

Any thoughts?

 

JF

 

As far as I'm concerned you have just taken something as beautiful as a day on the water and turned it into something else that I am not as good as someone else as.

What ever happened to discovering something on your own and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with that? Also, what ever happened to chatting on a forum with a bunch of people that were just like you, in this case fishermen.

I am not willing to say that Garry, or Mike, or anybody is worth more than anyone else that contributes here. In fact it is death to a thread when opinion is stated as fact, as though someone can read what goes through a fish's mind better than the rest.

As usual JohnF, I love the way you construct a sentence and am thrilled to be taken along for the ride, but don't really know where you are taking me.

But I know that I am not at all for anything that puts anyone on some sort of level above all others. Anyone that feels short changed for their sage wisdom can stop giving it at any time, and leave the rest of us amateurs to happily fend for ourselves.

Jim

[Garry2Rs]

Earth Calling Jim...

The question John F asked, was "Why don't more people do some guiding?"

Here's an opinion stated as fact...Molson and OFC posts don't mix!

[Marc Thorpe]

Well if opinions stated as facts are death to a thread

Let me try my hand at this

 

Guiding or chartering can be a means of earning a living depending on your financial goals.

To do well,better spend more time on the water than on dry land

Alot of sacrifices have to be made,its a way of life

I dont fully agree about a hobby can be ruined by work,it all dependent on how you re-focus your enjoyment

If you like catching fish,It may not be the thing for you unless you fish with clients(some do and some dont).If you progress more towards knowing about the fish than catching them and focus on the moments experienced with others then you might succeed.

 

The critical thing in business is setting up a good business plan and have set forecasted goals with an outlaid plan on how to get there.Having a business Policy ,where clients respect those policies in place.Some will respect them and and some wont,those that dont you just move on.(Reminds me of a George Carlin funny,Humans are gonna save the planet but we have yet to learn how to respect one another and love one another).

Knowing the possibilities and limitations of such a venture is of great importance

Considering long term possibilities is the key to survival

 

also one must consider the importance of knowing and having a first aid course with all the needed equipment in case of a situation.

Informing one self about the legalities and liabilities covering this commercial activity

 

Like most business,build it by design and adapt as the curve of evolution in the business evolves

 

I owned a good business for some 15 years and did 100 or so of guiding days a year,I sold it some years ago now and never looked backed.

For me ,its not a job,its the way I live

 

One does not run a guide or chartering business or lodge because he is good at it,its because its the way they choose to live

Those that dont,I suppose it explains why they are miserable about it

 

Gary2r's

 

I live in Good Earth

Edited December 6, 2009 by marc thorpe

[lew]

So how come more accomplished fisherpersons like Mike (Solopaddler) aren't getting something back for the wealth of knowledge they share with the rest of us? I'm only using Mike as an example (hope you don't mind) because his name was mentioned in this regard.

 

I've never personally had much of an interest in river fishing, but if I ever did want to learn about it, Mike would definetely be the guy I'd want to teach me. He's excellent at what he does and has obviously spent a huge amount of time learning the techniques that work.

 

But on the other hand, what about guys who hire themselves out as guides who infact aren't really that good at fishing, but can put on a huge front and pretend to be experts with many years of experience under their belts.

 

It's easy to take relatively in-experienced fishermen on your boat and spin huge yarns about how good you are, when they really don't know the difference, and make yourself look like some sort of pro in front of them.

 

The way I look at it, folks hire a guide to learn new lakes and the spots that produce the fish, or else their out for a trophy or at least to fill their stringers.

 

Now, what happens when you hire a guide who, even though he tells big stories and pretends to be an expert at everything related to fishing, when infact he doesn't really have that much experience and hasn't even caught any big fish himself.

 

If you don't have the knowledge or experience to catch them yourself, how can you possibly charge someone else to take them out.

 

Fishing websites are interesting to read and it's very easy to pick out the folks that are truly good at fishing, compared to the folks who AREN'T really that good, yet who pretend to be experts. It's really quite easy to collect information from books, the internet, or from talking to other fishermen, then turn that info into your own words and come off as the actual expert.

 

Folks who are inexperienced or new to fishing are easily fooled by these shams and put these people on pedestals, where they certainly don't belong.

 

I guess I got off topic a bit, but reading this very interesting post about people becoming guides really made me mad when I think of those who hire themselves out as guides or experts, when they themselves aren't nearly as good as they pretend to be.

 

My point is, if you've only ever caught dink muskies or average size bass, or any other species for that matter, because you really don't know where the big girls live yourself, or how to catch them, how can you possibly call yourself a guide and charge folks $$$$ for your services.

 

Remember folks, just because a person pretends to be an expert or a fishing guide, doesn't neccesarily means it's true.

 

It's easy to collect information from others and turn it into your own words to make yourself look like the experts, but good fishermen can easily pick you out of the crowd.

 

Nuthin worse than a scammer.

Edited December 6, 2009 by lew