steverowbotham Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Oh sure!!! Y'all keep up with the fish that you release 2, 3, 4 weeks after you release them??? Who cares what happens to them after the release... just as long as they don't die in the live well and we get our prize money!!! I know y'all are trying to justify what you do... but deep down inside you know it would be better for the fish not to cull tag it. I realize you have your conventional wisdom, having been around the block... and I tried to avoid this but it has to come into play now, I'm a certified fish and wildlife technologist and I guarantee you that if a fish dies from the livewell process, it has nothing to do with a cull tag. If it dies, its due to lack of oxygen, hot water, overhandling or having spent too much time out of the water. I realize everyone has their opinions, but I truely believe that yours is wrong.
Greencoachdog Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 I realize you have your conventional wisdom, having been around the block... and I tried to avoid this but it has to come into play now, I'm a certified fish and wildlife technologist and I guarantee you that if a fish dies from the livewell process, it has nothing to do with a cull tag. If it dies, its due to lack of oxygen, hot water, overhandling or having spent too much time out of the water. I realize everyone has their opinions, but I truely believe that yours is wrong. Which brings us back to post release mortality, I never said a cull tag would kill a fish in the live well, I said the abrasion and slime removal, and following infection from it would kill the fish. This won't be immediate, it'll take weeks. Please read my previous posts before quoting me again! ... and like I said earlier, the cull tag system is nothing but laziness in the name of prize money with little or no reguard to the fish!!! IMO
misfish Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 I just had to go and grab a double myself here. and like I said earlier, the cull tag system is nothing but laziness in the name of prize money with little or no reguard to the fish!!! IMO Where does the word laziness come in here? To me, it is the best way to get the fish out. Like you said,slime and scale removal is harmful to the fish.So why would one want to chase a fish around a well with thier hand and make the fish bang and bong of the walls of the well???????? Grab the tag,lift the fish out,unclasp the hook and there she or he be.
Sinker Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 I don't know much about these cull tags your all talking about, but i think its a tag you put on the fish so you know which one to release?? If that's the case, wouldn't the fish be handled more, and spend more time out of the water, than if you just put the smaller one in a separate well? You have to get the tag on it somehow........?? Are these tags also removed before you release them, also leading to more handling and time out of water? What I do know is this. We have a bass and a sunfish in an aquarium. If I touch those fish to clean the tank, they are hurtin for up to 2 weeks. There is noticable damage to them, just from being picked up, and put in a separate tank. I'm talking seconds in my hand, and out of the water. No cull tags. I dunno......I kind of agree with GCD on this one......F&W tech or not!! Its just common sense!!!!! More handling equals more damage to fish.....simple. I don't really care either way, bass aren't my thing, and I don't think the population is in danger anywhere. Now if you could show me a way to keep the stupid buggers off my pickeral jigs, and musky baits, I'd be interested in hearing about it Sinker
misfish Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Oh no, Shane has gone to the darkside.
Sinker Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Noooooo.......not ever........not those nasty green carp.......not gonna happen!!!!
OhioFisherman Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 and on top of that some states still allow you to fish for them during the spawn! Target the biggest fish, the best gene pool and pull them off the bed and let the bluegill and such eat their eggs. Some of the logic is hard to follow?
aniceguy Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 most guys will carry this or a similiar product http://www.bassmedics.com/rejuvenade/index.htm its actually refered to as delayed mortality and it equates to between 3-5% death for warm water species such as bass http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?reques...CO%3B2&ct=1 clips such as this cause 0 harm to a fish http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/template...rset=ISO-8859-1 if your interested in more scientific based papers that deal with delayed mortality on catch and release fish or on catch relocate and release fish, the effects of long term endurance within a live well email me and Im happy to help of similiar importance would be the economic benefits of even local 20 boat club tournaments to a local economy. the science on fishing for bedding bass is also very sound and again demonstrates its minimal impact Im putting together a bass DB on this sort of things for an unrelated issue and am happy to email any info needed just pm
BassAsin Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Do y'all not understand post release mortality??? Keep fresh water running into the live well, and no tags... keep the smallest one to the side by itself, you'll feel much better about yourself knowing you did the best you could! So how do you weigh your fish? do you jam the hook on the scale into his gills? or do you shove it through the bottom lip? do u weigh it in a bag? (slime removal) essentially what you are saying is that a cull tag is going to kill a fish eventually. so maybe we should weigh our fish and then take them home for dinner becasue there going to die anyway correct? and as for the obnoxious part of being in a tournament are you involved in the OFC tourny this year? does that mean i can assume that all of us are obnoxious for joining? regardless of prize or bragging rights theres something on the line. the joy of fishing and having fun is always present in a tournament and believe me, when i lose a five pounder on a day of fun fishing i get just as frustrated as if i do in a tournament. when it comes down to it fishing is for fun regardless and if money being on the line makes you feel any different so be it, until you have fished a handful of tournaments and realize just how much respect the fisherman have for themselves the sport other teams and the fish maybe we should just agree to disagree! none of this is meant to be rude ill intended or ignorant my appologies if i have offended anybody Matt!
steverowbotham Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Which brings us back to post release mortality, I never said a cull tag would kill a fish in the live well, I said the abrasion and slime removal, and following infection from it would kill the fish. This won't be immediate, it'll take weeks. Please read my previous posts before quoting me again! ... and like I said earlier, the cull tag system is nothing but laziness in the name of prize money with little or no reguard to the fish!!! IMO Do you honestly believe that a small hole in the lower lip is going to lead to slime removal and infection? That would mean that a hook is going to lead to slime removal and infection? No? Why dont we stop using hooks ? When you apply the tag (and they have "clip style" as opposed to those that actually pierce the lip), it ultimately reduces overall handling. You have the fish by the mouth when you apply the tag, and once removing the fish from the livewell, you can grab the tag, meaning the mouth. This means you are not chasing the fish around the livewell trying to grab its big old back and rubbing the slime and causing abrasions from fingernails. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, including yourself. I have given my 2 cents How long do you handle your fish while setting up your tripod to take your pictures? Just wondering... Edited February 1, 2009 by steverowbotham
Mark Kulik Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Obviously GCD you dont like tournament anglers thats fine, but I think you are out of line! Fighting and releasing muskie is very stressful on the fish , so is catching steelhead on 2 lb line, I can guarantee you I am responsible for less dead fish than 99% of recreational anglers! I'm pretty sure stringers and fillet knives kill more bass every year than a few tourneys! why dont we all just join P3TA and let the fishies be!. Edited February 1, 2009 by Mark Kulik
Roy Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 I'm not a tourney fisherman so I don't speak from experience. I do believe that all we can do as guardians of the resource is to do the best we can with the knowledge we have. Some good points being raised by everyone and that surely can't hurt. Dawg, I think you're being belligerent, again. No one has gotten their knickers in a knot in this thread which is also a good thing. Carry on. Speak quietly amongst yourselves.
Marc Thorpe Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Well,I dont fish bass but I know a thing or 2 about post mortal release and studies and they are not all rosy or bad. I have a study on competitive events in which it is an eye opener,especially the wandering of fish after live relase of such events,some fish do not return to their original location for weeks some never do Bass over all are the hardiest species for these events Its the law of average although as you learning curve increase ,your post mortal release decreases but unfortunately when you calculate the overall catch increase and factor your post mortal release as being above average for the common angler,truth is when you wake you stare the ennemy in eye A weekend angler catch 100 fish a year,post mortal release of 15%, = 15 fish die A proficient anglers catches 1000 fish a year at 8% post mortal release = 80 fish die in regards to economic impact,there a few competitive events that exist that over shadow or surpass tourism economic impact,actually some events have driven tourism away ,while others have increased it in years there after due to notoriety of the fishery being publicized by certain competitive events when looking at the effects of C&R you have to factor in total annual captures to see the true value of post mortal release On the other hand Competitive bass angling events have led the way in fish handling and release methods by innovating products and boats for these events There are some behaviors or culling tools which should be reconsider given the importance of fish handling these events offer as a message Stress does not always occur during the fight,studies have shown that stress levels increase to vital levels when fish are taken out of the water not under their OWN power or intention,confinement is also a major factor of stress levels,mainly why some live well additives have been introduced. when I wake I stare the enemy in the eye Edited February 1, 2009 by marc thorpe
solopaddler Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) I've got absolutely nothing against tournaments or tournament anglers but I completely agree with GCD's sentiment. All these overhandled and transplanted bass probably will live, but some may not. You can't possibly argue that it's actually beneficial to the fish. The only possible effect is negative. Edited February 1, 2009 by solopaddler
lew Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 This has been an interesting thread, and I must admit that until I read it and then looked at the link provided by aniceguy, I'd never even heard of, or seen these clips. I don't fish for bass at all and seldom even watch bass fishing or bass tournies on TV, but when you figure in all the stress that fish go thru, specially the ones caught for tournaments, I can't really see where those little clips would do anymore harm than what's already being done. Their hooked, then the hooks are pulled back out, then their bounced around in a livewell all day with a bunch of other fish, in a boat going upwards of 60 MPH, then hauled back out and carried to the weigh station, then back to the water and released.......or whatever........so I can't see where putting a little plastic clip on their lip would really add that much more stress to them, or even enhance the chance of them dying after release. Seems to me that holding a fish up by the jaw and waiting for the camera to click would do more damage to that critter than a little plastic clip. My guess would be there's FAR more damage done to fish by fishermen who either don't know, or don't care about the proper way to handle fish that are gonna be released. We've all seen it, where fished are dropped in the bottom of the boat, or dragged across rocks by shore anglers, or even when fish are passed around from one guy to another so everyone can get a picture with it. We also see fish layed in gravel or mud to have a picture taken......that can't be too good for their eyes. Like I say though, I've never seen these little clips before this morning, but I think alot of folks do more to harm fish than than those things ever would, so personally I see no problem with them. Very interesting thread
Marc Thorpe Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Their hooked, then the hooks are pulled back out, then their bounced around in a livewell all day with a bunch of other fish, in a boat going upwards of 60 MPH, then hauled back out and carried to the weigh station, then back to the water and released....... You bring up an interesting point! Ive always wondered when these events would get away from weigh in and go to Live Release
Flippin-Jig Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 If the argument is what is beneficial to the fish then why fish at all? Putting aside any conservation efforts, there is NOTHING that a fisherman does that is beneficial to the fish, whether the weekend angler or hardcore tournament fisherman. I have been on many lakes the day/week/2-weeks after a tournament and have never seen an any more or less dead bass than any lake where there has never been a tournemant.
Spiel Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Putting aside any conservation efforts, there is NOTHING that a fisherman does that is beneficial to the fish, whether the weekend angler or hardcore tournament fisherman. ....and therein lies the truth.
walleyemen Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 There has been alot of good comments on this topic, bottom line there is some degree to mortality no matter what when fishing is involve, alot of it is the original condition of the fish or how healthy it was before being caught, most anglers here i feel take great measures ti insure most fish are handled proberly, but sometimes that may not be case, all part of fishing, in all tournaments i've been in, fish survival comes first and formost, and as far tagging fish for future studies, bottom line is all fish we catch may not survive, but we can do our best to try make sure they have at least a fighting chance, glad to see alot of responses to this as it does mean you all do really care! Wheither you agree or not, bottom line it's still the same concern! Wayne
Greencoachdog Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 Putting aside any conservation efforts, there is NOTHING that a fisherman does that is beneficial to the fish, whether the weekend angler or hardcore tournament fisherman. ....and therein lies the truth. That's not entirely true. I've fed my fish a lot of minnows!
hotrod Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 I really don't like the clips and I went to the glory bags this year. Catch the fish, pop him in the bag and into the livewell. They don't fight or thrash around and the pounding is reduced greatly. As far as handling and mortality all the guys I know who fish t's are greatly concerned about the health of their fish because if it's dead you get penalized so it's in everyone's best interest to keep them as healthy as possible. As for catch and release delayed mortality it isn't just in bass tournies, I've seen plenty of dead steelhead on the bottom of rivers from guys using too light a leader and playing the fish way too long. They let it go it slowly swims away and ends up dead on the bottom of the next pool downstream and that has nothing to do with trying to cash a cheque.
lew Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 You bring up an interesting point! Ive always wondered when these events would get away from weigh in and go to Live Release Marc, I guess it all boils down to $$$$ and those that would cheat for it. You'll recall a few years back when Adam and I fished those couple musky tournaments. They were online elimination tournies that ran for 5 months each and all that was required were photographs of the fish and we were on our honour as to the actuall measurments of them. The first year there were 45 teams and we came in 1st place and won the tourney, and then the next year there were 60 teams and we came in about 5th place. The big difference though, was there was no money or prizes of any kind and it was only for bragging rights, and throughout both years there was never any controversy at all and everyone of us were taken at our word. Just take the measurments, photograph and release the fish, then submit your numbers Alot of tournies, for all species, have some very serious prizes, and some folks would do anything to win, so I spose an official weigh-in is the only way to go in order to keep everyone on the up & up. Live release & honesty would probably work for most, but sadly not for all. At least that's the way I see the fish'n world
aniceguy Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) the live release componant is a great concept, we run it on the craa tournament yearly and it has been very successful, as its bragging rights also with safeguards in place for cheating it hasnt been an issue. Fishing for money is a different thing and as such sooner or later issues come up. Flippin Jig hit it on the nail as did solo piercing a fishes mouth ( while it feels no pain ) it is stresed pulled from its enviroment, held by the gill plate and tossed in has no benefit at all to the fish. . . . . Its how we educate ourselves, and others and then treat that same fish in a manner to lower the negative impacts via proper conservation tactics that counts. . . or take up knitting . . . Someone said it bass are farily hearty, they are in fact very plastic in thier ability to re cover from the impact of angling its the delicate ones such as salmonids that really have it tough. . .. . I sit on a council with Dr Casslemen and Im looking forward to his insite into C & R on Musky bottom line dont want to kill or hurt a fish sell the poles and take up golf because no matter how much you know or how hard you try some fish do in fact die Edited February 1, 2009 by aniceguy
solopaddler Posted February 1, 2009 Report Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) If the argument is what is beneficial to the fish then why fish at all? Putting aside any conservation efforts, there is NOTHING that a fisherman does that is beneficial to the fish, whether the weekend angler or hardcore tournament fisherman. True, true, I get your point. We may as well all just join P eTA if not harming a fish in any way is the priority. But there's a big difference between unhooking and releasing a fish quickly and efficiently at boatside and this (to quote Lew): "Their hooked, then the hooks are pulled back out, then their bounced around in a livewell all day with a bunch of other fish, in a boat going upwards of 60 MPH, then hauled back out and carried to the weigh station, then back to the water and released.......or whatever........" Again I'm not in any way against the practice, but it simply cannot be argued that it's equally as harmless as normal C&R practices. Edited February 1, 2009 by solopaddler
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