Is my calculation correct?

[carp-starter]

I heard over the radio this morning that GM (Canada) wants 4 billion dollars NOW and then in January they want another 4 billion.

 

I think that GM is asking too much. In the USA, the big three are asking for 15 to 17 billion. Now do not forget that the population is about 10 times the population of Canada. Canada’s population, I am assuming is about 30 million – includes all even kids who will not be able to pay anything.

 

So based on the above, Canada should give only 1/10 or 1.5 to 1.7 billion for all three.

 

This morning I started to wonder how much it will cost us per person. DO NOT FORGET THAT MONEY DOES NOT COME FROM THE SKY. WE WILL BE THE ONES WHO WILL PAY.

 

So, I did some calculations and this is where I could be wrong. There are so many zeros..

 

case 1 - Canada population of 30 million – includes kids

 

4,000,000,000 / 30,000,000 equals - $133.33 per man, woman and child

 

case 2 – if kids not included – I assume the population is 15 million

 

Kids cannot contribute. The parents will have to pay.

 

4,000,000,000 / 15,000,000

equals – $266.66

 

The above is required by GM right now. They say that they also will need another 4 billion in January.

 

So, double all of the above in case 1 and 2 to get the cost per person.

 

Do not forget this will not be the first time that GM has needed a bailout. We have had too many in the past. And they will come again and again.

 

At some point, a decision has to be made to stop bailing out GM. It's like with an old car. Do you keep on putting money into your old car to keep it running or do you just go out and get a new car? At some point you have say "that is it" and you stop.

 

Can you afford it? Do not forget that there will be other companies who will be asking for easy money.

 

Can we afford it? I don’t think so. At least I cannot.

 

You guys may have a different opinion. Perhaps I am not seeing everything.

 

What are your opinions?

 

But, I say to GM -

 

 

carp-starter

 

FYI

 

Ford will come out with a new vehicle in 2010. Guess what it is. It will be a 2010 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor – the basic version will be over 300 hp, huge tires and etc, etc. The next one up will be over 400 hp (I think). These guys do not learn.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5075561/2010-ford-f+15...ptor-first-ride

 

http://www.rsportscars.com/ford/2010-ford-f150-svt-raptor/

 

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/2010-for...look/1541704977

[2 tone z71]

I say they NEED to sink ,they need to get Bankruptcy protection the company should have to liquidate all and start from scratch,no to these handouts

[bigugli]

The Canadian govt was duped for over a decade by Massey Ferguson. Back then it was development grants, interest free loans, purchases of thousands of tractors for foreign aid.

Don't get me wrong, they built a fantastic tractor then. They also priced themselves out of the market. The bailouts stopped and MF folded soon after back in the 70's. Someone bought up the remains of the company and continues the brand name, but the plants are long gone.

It is only too likely that we will get into the same financial mess. We will pay through the nose, but the plants will still disappear, and we will be left holding an empty bag.

 

Carp starter:

 

Your math is a bit off. Not all adults are actually paying an income tax. Reduce that number by 1/3 down to 10 million and you have a price tag of $400 per taxpayer for each dig into the pocket.

[bigfish1965]

No more bailouts...start buying shares instead to bring up liquidity. At least gives us a shot at recovering the money. Thats what they are going to do with the banks in the US...buy up shares and debt and sell it off when the time is right. Better than just handing them the cash and getting nothing back...

[BUSTER]

I just cant wait for 2-4-1 trucks sink you bascards........ill do like irishfield said put the spare truck in the back yard for parts

[JohnF]

No more bailouts...start buying shares instead to bring up liquidity. At least gives us a shot at recovering the money. Thats what they are going to do with the banks in the US...buy up shares and debt and sell it off when the time is right. Better than just handing them the cash and getting nothing back...

 

I doubt we want politicians managing auto production. What about instead of that the gov't puts up the money to help cover the unfunded legacy obligations? Allow the car companies to go into bankrupty or receivership. Sell the saleable assets. Apportion the receipts as seems reasonable (i.e. - to the recipients least culpable in the failure of the industry). Perhaps better business heads will take over the assets and revive the auto industry in North America with better business sense and less union blackmail. It's time for all involved to realize the N.A. auto industry isn't just a cash cow and start to be realistic and reasonable about how it operates and what expectations folks should have of it.

 

Perhaps we really don't need so many models that no one really knows what they all are. For example, I was looking at the current Ford lineup recently and I couldn't make any sense of it. There seem to be duplications of duplications, and the colour and option lists are ridiculous. Compare that to Honda for instance and you see a much more limited, and logical, selection, and they seem to be doing pretty well in Canada.

 

I think the current gang of operators have proven their ineptitude, had their chance. Clean house in a way that hurts the innocent victims the least and let the N.A. industry start from scratch. There will be lots of bargain production plants, hungry suppliers, and out of work labour force out there so startup shouldn't be too difficult.

 

Seems to me it's time for someone like Frank Stronach and Magna to step up and build a car, without being saddled with all the baggage that the current big three have to haul. And if he doesn't want it, there are Pacific Rim companies that seem to know what they're doing and are already here.

 

I may be overly simplistic, but it looks to me like the convolutions of the industry as we know it sure aren't doing the job today. It's time for a better system, not wasting more money flogging a dead horse.

 

JF

[MAzing]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

[hammercarp]

Carp-starter I think your math is a bit off to. Canada may be 1/10th the size of the states but our auto industry exports 90% of the vehicles they produce to the states. Also even though not all citizens pay income tax nearly all of us pay GST and there are other federal taxes as well.

Also farm equipment is just not comparable to the automotive industry. The scale is vastly different. The collapse of the automotive industry would be catastrophic to our economy. We need it to change without disappearing.

[Bernie]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

 

This is the attitude that got the big 3 in trouble.

How does that old saying go....."Build a better mousetrap?"

[Wild]

Is it time to start fresh and have a true Canadian auto company that can sell internationally?

[Jigger]

MAzing, don't you think that if the BIG three were smart they would have made their cars a little more in keeping with the times? The reason so many imports get sold is because they are far more reliable, and like John stated, they offer far more limited options and are more linear with their approach to business. Look at the examples given by the TS about Fords upcoming lineup. 300hp?400hp? Come on, the bigwigs are in the pocket of big oil and the vehicles are not designed for the DIY fixup anymore. Used to be North American cars desingned for North Americans, yet these days it seems like they are designed for the North American to bring in for service. Build crap, don't expect it to last.

[carp-starter]

Below is the address to a thread on "The Classic Fly Rod Forum" where I am a member. There is a discussion about Ford and GM and their problems.

 

There is also a bit of humour when the OP would trade his Dickerson for 1,000 shares of Ford and 1,000 shares of GM.

 

carp-starter

 

Edited and added the following -

 

My last American car bought - GM, Olds Cutlass Supreme - was in 1973 and there is no way that I would buy another American car again.

Edited December 6, 2008 by carp-starter

[cram]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

 

Don't ford and gm move a lot of their plants to mexico while toyota and honda have been opening plants here? I know when i buy a honda that i'm supporting my friends who work in alliston....

[pigeonfisher]

Some of the Asian companies, specifically Shanghai Automotive (which began as a subsidiary of GM) would certainly be ready to provide low price, low value vehicles into our marketplace. We are right now coming in line with our own expectations. "I want" and I want it now and cheap. We are a now a society based on replacement of low cost, low value products. It is simply easier. Recall the recent conversation about not fixing a TV and instead replacing it. I have pants with repaired knees, I am the only one on my street though...

 

The problem begins with our expectations that we can all have everything. Everyone needs 42" or bigger flat panel TV's as an example. The US gov't "invested" in the people this year, everyone at my workplace (with exception of me as I am not a citizen) recieved a cheque for between $400-$1000. This was done to stimulate the economy, and boy did it.

 

Statistics came back saying that over 60% invested in a new flat panel TV. Nice to have; however, it contributes nothing into the commercial or industrial markets. Sure some distributors have made $$ on the resale value of the TV.

 

It sure gets frustrating. At times we are all part of the problem, we do have choices to make decisions and contribute to the solution with some of your purchases.

 

Purchase less high cost goods that will contribute back into our economies. In the fishing world I will point you to Ardent Reels. These reels are manufactured 100% in the US, they may be more expensive than the shimano you are looking at but you are contributing back to a company that is providing for our North American futures.

 

The Big 3 have sunk their battleships. With any luck they will resurface with less internal competition. Lower prices are not always good, specifically when the costs are fixed or inflationary.

[Uncle Buck]

Think they have many Fords/GMs/Chrsylers in Japan/India/China etc??

 

how many "Foreigners" do you see driving one of the big 3 made vehicles? they support their own, we don't

 

My opinion is some sort of bailout must happen, or the economy will collapse...

however, my thoughts would be get rid of all the execs... and cap imports of part/assemblies/etc to 10% and monthly audits to make sure this is happening.

give mfg a chance in North america and their sales will go back up and they'll dig themselves out of this... lets shut down the plants

overseas, not the ones in our backyard!!

[pigeonfisher]

This is an interesting read...

 

Chery on Wikepedia

 

I have been watching these guys for a few months, they plan to selling vehicles in the US for less than $5,000.

[cram]

Think they have many Fords/GMs/Chrsylers in Japan/India/China etc??

 

how many "Foreigners" do you see driving one of the big 3 made vehicles? they support their own, we don't

 

My opinion is some sort of bailout must happen, or the economy will collapse...

however, my thoughts would be get rid of all the execs... and cap imports of part/assemblies/etc to 10% and monthly audits to make sure this is happening.

give mfg a chance in North america and their sales will go back up and they'll dig themselves out of this... lets shut down the plants

overseas, not the ones in our backyard!!

 

The same US companies who wouldn't let you drive across the border to buy at fair market value when our dollar was equal to the USD?

 

The same US companies who build their cars to fail so that the ygenerate the ever-so-precious service/parts revenue?

 

I will happily buy foreign if its a better car and the price is fair.

[Fisherman]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

Ya, just the attitude a prospective buyer would love to hear, just like when I had a GM product where warranty was denied before it ran out, cost me $700, and when I called Oshawa customer service and asked for help, their response was, "If you don't like it, buy something else", well guess what, SINK!

[OhioFisherman]

Like 22,000 jobs cuts announced yesterday alone, and more expected. 6.7 percent unemployment rate is not an accurate figure, just includes people out looking for work, not people that have given up or those under employed. Actual figures estimated to be near 13 percent and increasing, not a time to lose a couple million Auto related jobs when jobs losses are predicted to be over a million next year without Auto jobs losses.

 

Exporting jobs isn`t quite the deal it was sold to be? This is starting to affect every thing here, they are fishing for a way to stop it and need to catch a bright idea. Washington though, they are the ones that let it slip through there fingers.

[Wild]

Like 22,000 jobs cuts announced yesterday alone, and more expected. 6.7 percent unemployment rate is not an accurate figure, just includes people out looking for work, not people that have given up or those under employed. Actual figures estimated to be near 13 percent and increasing, not a time to lose a couple million Auto related jobs when jobs losses are predicted to be over a million next year without Auto jobs losses.

 

Exporting jobs isn`t quite the deal it was sold to be? This is starting to affect every thing here, they are fishing for a way to stop it and need to catch a bright idea. Washington though, they are the ones that let it slip through there fingers.

Did you forget to omit the 200,000+ illegal immigrants presently in Canada?

[tschirk]

To those who think that not buying imports is the answer, I would suggest that kind of thinking (protectionism) was a major contributor to extending the length & depth of the great depression. Canada exports more than it imports, for now. By being protectionist goods become more expensive for us to buy due to reduced choice & competition. Then countries that buy our products will stop in retaliation. Everyone looses...

 

We need to become personally accountable for the value the free market will pay for our products & services. Each of us need to develop skills & intellectual property that are not easily off-shored and that other countries will want & pay for. Relying on unions & big manufacturing to sustain our standard of living is no longer sustainable and doomed to fail regardless of bailouts.

 

We are a fortunate to have one of the brightest & healthiest populations in the world. We are resource rich. Let's start creating value that is worthy of being Canadian.

[Bernie]

To those who think that not buying imports is the answer, I would suggest that kind of thinking (protectionism) was a major contributor to extending the length & depth of the great depression. Canada exports more than it imports, for now. By being protectionist goods become more expensive for us to buy due to reduced choice & competition. Then countries that buy our products will stop in retaliation. Everyone looses...

 

We need to become personally accountable for the value the free market will pay for our products & services. Each of us need to develop skills & intellectual property that are not easily off-shored and that other countries will want & pay for. Relying on unions & big manufacturing to sustain our standard of living is no longer sustainable and doomed to fail regardless of bailouts.

 

We are a fortunate to have one of the brightest & healthiest populations in the world. We are resource rich. Let's start creating value that is worthy of being Canadian.

 

Excellent post Ted.

The only thing I would add is that we should be processing more of our resources here rather than shipping out raw materials. This has been a flaw for a long time.

[OhioFisherman]

Wild I am in the States, estimates here for illegal aliens are between 12 and 20 million, no one knows for sure. Talk about secure borders?

 

A lot of them are employed by employers that don`t pay social security or taxes, pay them cash at the end of the day or week. They can`t complain or it`s no work. A lot of not so funny things go on here.

[camillj]

My Toyota was made less than an hour from here ... so the 'import' story doesnt work for me .. and those jobs (in Ontario) matter just as much to me/us as the ones in Oshawa.

 

Truth is we all have a really big problem ... and this part of the Auto market (big 3) is just the tip of the iceberg ... the wholoe industry is the rest of that iceberg .. and theres a wave of other icebergs flowing through .... if we dont print the money along with the rest of the g8 we'll have a long mountain to climb to catch back up (if we ever can) ... the key is to make sure that its money well spent ... personally I like the 'guarantee' for leasing (qualified buyers) ... I like the line of credit ... and I like the equity financing ...

 

What lots of folks seem to forget is that right now (never mind if any of the big 3 ever get into bankrupcy) - many 'qualified' car buyers - even if they choose to buy GM FORD etc - CANNOT get financing for their lease - this is a self-fulfilling failure NO MATTER how much money you throw at the problem - if the buyers cant buy then the producers MUST stop producing .... or flood the lots with unsold product... and the whole thing implodes...

 

The solution HAS to include a means to enable (not just entice) willing 'qualified' buyers to buy... so at the very least the govt needs to get involved - I say the fastest solution - with the lowest real-dollar cost would be to offer no interest loans and allow the PST/GST costs to be income tax deductible.

 

The second low-cost (real dollars) idea would be to bring back the concept of company car without the associated income tax penalty ... then small business folks will be incented to buy cars for their employees rather than pay out cash bonuses .... and in fact it is a 'no-cost' approach to the tax-payer since these are cars that otherwise will NOT BE SOLD anyways and so there would never have been a tax collected on the sale ... of course this option is only viable if there is still an auto industry left to support .. so we HAVE to do what it takes to buy the time to implement a longer term solution...I say buy the shares and control the board (the total combined market cap is something like 3 billion) ... then make the changes in the market place to make it work.

 

 

 

The only real caveat is for the other players/investors/workers - who will (rightly) cry foul if the playing field isn't kept level.

 

 

By the way, it strikes me that not so long ago Japan introduced legislation requiring cars to be OFF the road after a period of time (think it was 3 years) - a planned obsolescence - and built in engine for the marketplace - I am pretty sure it was introduced as part of a emissions control measure ...not sure this is the answer but it is important to understand that the producers are only one side of the equation ... the consumers (and the parameters around their consumption) are at least as important in it.

 

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited December 6, 2008 by camillj

[DRIFTER_016]

If only the majority of North Americans got their heads out of their butts years ago and stop buying the imports we would not be in this kind of trouble. 700 more layoffs coming up in January.

 

It was easy to see that this was coming no mater what the general economie is doing, if you don't support the major industry of your country you're selling out.

 

Now I'm going to get stuck trying to figure out what import I'll be stuck buying when I'll want to replace my 3 GM vehicules.

 

To all you import supporters, thank you very much on my part ( to me it's just a vehicle choice ) but think of all those you've left jobless.

 

 

If the North Americans would stop building junk vehicles that last like the imports, get fuel mileage like the imports, were as nice to drive as the imports, Maybe, just maybe they would sell more vehicles.

 

I have owned Chevy's, Ford's and Chryslers as well as Honda's and my Honda's have all been much better vehicles than the American's.

 

And guess what They are built in Canada by Canadians!!!!!!