14 year old student stabbed to death outside his East End Hamilton Highschool.

[lew]

1 hour ago, Terry said:

 

18 freaking times and in front of his mother and other people

And the sad part is, some lawyer....maybe even paid by us....will fight to defend him.

[Old Ironmaker]

11 hours ago, jonasdry said:

I'll start with nobody deserves to die. I'll also mention that I grew up in this neighborhood sort of. Some family and a lot of friends lived on Lang, Melvin, Roxborough, etc. It's a tough area, it's also "the projects". Parenting in that area is not quite up to par with more affluent areas. To blame the school, especially for something that didn't happen on the school property is just wrong. I am not an educator, nor do I support a lot of what they do, so I am not biased or sticking up for them.

The problem with children of today is that there is no accountability or responsibility, something I have been dealing with for my own children as well. I spend a lot of time and effort trying to teach my kids that good behaviour and hard work will reward you in life. In the area of town that these kids live in, parent's generally don't put that much effort into parenting.

I don't know the fellow that died, or his mother or his family so in no way am I saying they did anything wrong or they are to blame. What I am saying is that I grew up in that area and I still know a lot of people in the RH, Barton, Parkdale, Queenston block. I know how things are there.

There needs to be some punishment changes in the system for sure. The area there has most certainly been cleaned up and is looking a lot nicer that it was when I grew up there but it still has a way to go. Hopefully this tragedy will encourage some of the local politicians to find cash for some social programs that will allowed the kids to interact a bit more with each other and reduced the cliques in the area or at least reduce the animosity of the kids. 

You guys know what I am talking about. I grew up in Rosedale right about 1/2 way between the Parkdale Gang and the Rosedale Gang not far from the Parkdale bridge so I went to school with both and played Little League Baseball with both at Mahoney Park and the valley in Rosedale.  Both neighbourhoods were made up of working class families, you won't find a Lawyer or a Doctor living there, ever. Some of those guys ended up with nothing because of many factors including petty crime to support drug abuse. There are many success stories of individuals from both neighbourhoods. Some had great parenting and some had terrible parenting but some with terrible parents became successful. My young M.D. has a family practice on Kenilworth N. He attended SWC and lived near the Coke plant. I have no idea what type of parents he had but I am going to guess great ones. There were many that worked in the Steel mills with me from that area and decided to continue living in the Parkdale area even when they could afford to move to the Creek or up the Mountain for example. Some were hard workers that did well and some were a pain to deal with that had to borrow 20 bucks on Xmas dayshift to bring milk home. And the guy was making 25 bucks an hour in the 80's!! A member of The RD's biker gang, what a surprise. 

5 hours ago, pics said:

The accused boys are brothers who were moved recently to the area because of previous incidents where they used to live. One of the 2 that were originally charged and released played ball hockey with my daughter and their dad seemed like a decent guy. He was always complaining about his ex and how useless she was as a parent. The 2 suspects seem to be more than their mother could handle..I lived in the area briefly as a kid and never had to worry much about bullies because I had several cousins that went to both Hillcrest and SWC.. it was a tough area to live in but it's worse now..

I haven't been down there for a good 10 years unless I go to Princess Auto. A Pipefitter I know through a pal lives right down the street where this happened behind the school. He has worked for 35 plus years on the job and doesn't have 2 red nickels to rub together. Struggles to pay the rent on the place he shares, a 2/4 of beer a day for 365 can dip into a budget big time. He was and he still says he is a member of the Mini Mob and is proud to say it, what a goof. Many I know are now good hard working tax paying grand fathers but knew when to leave their gang days behind them. You knew those guys Pics I'm positive. Mike W and Billy W are both gone now, don't know if you knew that. I became good friends with Billy and his wife over the years. If you told me that 50 years ago I would think you were daft. 

When someone stabs a child 18 times there is more going on than bullying. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[Old Ironmaker]

4 hours ago, lew said:

And the sad part is, some lawyer....maybe even paid by us....will fight to defend him.

I've always believed in the innocent until proven guilty law seriously. Sometimes it's easy to send someone to the chair before a case sees the inside of a Courtroom, sometimes it's hard not to convict before any evidence comes to light, like this one. 

I have had to go to court twice, no violent crimes, Ministry of Labour charges both times. The Judge's said eventually no crime at all. My Lawyers suggested I plead out on the 1st case, I got new lawyers took a trial by Justice and was acquitted, both times. Ironic that I took a position with the MOL for a few years after I took my pension. I think the experiences got me the gig. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[chris.brock]

Without getting political, this stuff is going to get worse as class sizes increase. It gets hard for teachers just to keep order, let alone teach and monitor bullying.

I recently moved to get my son into a better neighborhood and better schools. Still, barely a month into JK and an issue arose. I didn't bother with emails to the teachers/ principal etc. I cornered the other kid's dad and said "if your son hits my son in the face again, I'm going to smash your face.

I like what Sinker had to say a few posts back, I agree with most of that.

[Old Ironmaker]

1 hour ago, chris.brock said:

Without getting political, this stuff is going to get worse as class sizes increase. It gets hard for teachers just to keep order, let alone teach and monitor bullying.

I recently moved to get my son into a better neighborhood and better schools. Still, barely a month into JK and an issue arose. I didn't bother with emails to the teachers/ principal etc. I cornered the other kid's dad and said "if your son hits my son in the face again, I'm going to smash your face.

I like what Sinker had to say a few posts back, I agree with most of that.

I know how I would feel if someone touched my kid. But do you really think that is the way to deal with it Chris? He's watching your every move. I might go the route of going to the school authorities then if that didn't work then threaten the guy. For all we know that little kid may be getting slapped around by his father at home and he is going to take it out on his baby. JK they are babies. 

[jonasdry]

7 hours ago, chris.brock said:

Without getting political, this stuff is going to get worse as class sizes increase. It gets hard for teachers just to keep order, let alone teach and monitor bullying.

I recently moved to get my son into a better neighborhood and better schools. Still, barely a month into JK and an issue arose. I didn't bother with emails to the teachers/ principal etc. I cornered the other kid's dad and said "if your son hits my son in the face again, I'm going to smash your face.

I like what Sinker had to say a few posts back, I agree with most of that.

I recently looked through my class photos from when I was in grade school. One year my class size was 26, the rest were all 28-31 students. We didn't have these issues then. I don't think class sizes are to blame. I believe poor parenting is to blame. I also believe left leaning social influences are to blame. Never when I was a kid could we threaten to call the cops, CAS, etc on our parents when we were upset or disciplined. In those days adults were not scared to do what they had to do to keep us kids in line. 

Kids these days aren't scared of anything other than responsibility and accountability. With the imposed social changes in acceptable behaviour by minority and special interest groups, society as a whole is degrading. Society was much nicer, polite and safer when conservative values were the norm. The conservative society gave acceptance to the special interest and fringe groups and that inch they had has turned into miles now. The fact that so few people have changed society to what it is today is scary.

[chris.brock]

21 hours ago, Old Ironmaker said:

 But do you really think that is the way to deal with it Chris? He's watching your every move. I might go the route of going to the school authorities then if that didn't work then threaten the guy. For all we know that little kid may be getting slapped around by his father at home and he is going to take it out on his baby. JK they are babies. 

I thought about it long and hard. I think that was the only way to deal with it. The teachers/ principals can't do anything, talking to the 4 year old bully isn't an option, he's only 4 years old.

No kids saw the discussion, parents saw it but probably couldn't hear what was said.

jonasdry , you make some good points. I was always scared of my VPs and they would get in your face if you were being a butt hole. They can't do that now. 

 

[dave524]

22 hours ago, jonasdry said:

I recently looked through my class photos from when I was in grade school. One year my class size was 26, the rest were all 28-31 students. We didn't have these issues then. I don't think class sizes are to blame. I believe poor parenting is to blame. I also believe left leaning social influences are to blame. Never when I was a kid could we threaten to call the cops, CAS, etc on our parents when we were upset or disciplined. In those days adults were not scared to do what they had to do to keep us kids in line. 

Kids these days aren't scared of anything other than responsibility and accountability. With the imposed social changes in acceptable behaviour by minority and special interest groups, society as a whole is degrading. Society was much nicer, polite and safer when conservative values were the norm. The conservative society gave acceptance to the special interest and fringe groups and that inch they had has turned into miles now. The fact that so few people have changed society to what it is today is scary.

Agreed, Looking at my grade 1 class pic here, 1956, 28 kids , but not really grade 1, there was grades 1 and 2 in one room , one teacher, it got better though. Next room grades 3,4 and 5 were in ONE room so the class size would be approaching 40 and only ONE teacher, same with 6,7, and 8, one room , one teacher. Bet our grammar , spelling and basic math skills were better than kids today and with very little of today's bullying , we could even write cursive too 😂  that's me 3rd from left , front row 😀

[Old Ironmaker]

Sometimes there is luck involved raising kids. I know 2 guys I worked with for 20 plus years, I was their Foreman. You learn a lot about someone you work with, both were stellar employees. Each mirrored the other. Same education, same jobs and wages, same neighbourhood, wives very similar. Both had boys the exact same age that were in the same classes in school. I am going to assume the same upbringing in the home. We had a Hunt/Fish camp on The Ottawa south of Pembroke. They both brought the kids one year for opening of Pics with us. Mario's kids were yes please Sir, no thankyou Sir, may I help you Sir. Brian's kids thought the world rotated around them. They were constantly fighting and telling their Father to take a hike (auto word change). You could see the shame on Brian's face all weekend. I couldn't believe it. Mario's oldest worked in Prime Minister Harper's office and his second son became a High School Principle. Brian's 2 boys were in and out of prison since their early 20's and who knows where they are now, either incarcerated or dead I would bet. Who knows what went on at Brian's behind closed doors? It's hard for me to believe Brian was a bad parent. Those 2 demons may have defeated his wife and he over the years and they just gave up. Sometime it is my opinion that  parents have to be lucky raising kids. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[Sinker]

 Kids these days get everything they want, but nothing they need. 

[John]

18 hours ago, Old Ironmaker said:

Sometimes there is luck involved raising kids. I know 2 guys I worked with for 20 plus years, I was their Foreman. You learn a lot about someone you work with, both were stellar employees. Each mirrored the other. Same education, same jobs and wages, same neighbourhood, wives very similar. Both had boys the exact same age that were in the same classes in school. I am going to assume the same upbringing in the home. We had a Hunt/Fish camp on The Ottawa south of Pembroke. They both brought the kids one year for opening of Pics with us. Mario's kids were yes please Sir, no thankyou Sir, may I help you Sir. Brian's kids thought the world rotated around them. They were constantly fighting and telling their Father to take a hike (auto word change). You could see the shame on Brian's face all weekend. I couldn't believe it. Mario's oldest worked in Prime Minister Harper's office and his second son became a High School Principle. Brian's 2 boys were in and out of prison since their early 20's and who knows where they are now, either incarcerated or dead I would bet. Who knows what went on at Brian's behind closed doors? It's hard for me to believe Brian was a bad parent. Those 2 demons may have defeated his wife and he over the years and they just gave up. Sometime it is my opinion that  parents have to be lucky raising kids. 

Not a big believer in luck. Whether it's your success in life or raising your kids to become responsible, respectful citizens, I feel that we make our own luck. It's funny how the harder one works at something the luckier one becomes. Non of us knows what lurks behind closed doors. All may look hunky dory at face value. Teaching our kids morals, with respect, responsibility and consequences for their actions is a process that is ongoing and starts at day one. Barbara and I were extremely "lucky" in as much as our children grew up well as have their children.

Edited October 18, 2019 by John

[mikeh]

I wonder how much of it was peer pressure, someone urging him to do it, very sad tragedy 

[BillM]

1 hour ago, mikeh said:

I wonder how much of it was peer pressure, someone urging him to do it, very sad tragedy 

The fact that the 14 year old did the stabbing makes me believe he hasn't had a very good childhood.

[Old Ironmaker]

4 hours ago, John said:

Not a big believer in luck. Whether it's your success in life or raising your kids to become responsible, respectful citizens, I feel that we make our own luck. It's funny how the harder one works at something the luckier one becomes. Non of us knows what lurks behind closed doors. All may look hunky dory at face value. Teaching our kids morals, with respect, responsibility and consequences for their actions is a process that is ongoing and starts at day one. Barbara and I were extremely "lucky" in as much as our children grew up well as have their children.

I as well John strongly believe in that theory. But, when a 53' Tractor Trailer goes through a stop sign exactly at the same second a bus full of Jr. Hockey players does, exactly the same millisecond and dozens of kids are killed how do you explain that? Devine intervention? That I don't believe in. 

[lew]

8 minutes ago, Old Ironmaker said:

I as well John strongly believe in that theory. But, when a 53' Tractor Trailer goes through a stop sign exactly at the same second a bus full of Jr. Hockey players does, exactly the same millisecond and dozens of kids are killed how do you explain that? Devine intervention? That I don't believe in. 

John was referring to good parenting helps to raise good kids rather than luck, it has nothing to do with that horrible accident,,,,two totally different things.

[Old Ironmaker]

2 hours ago, lew said:

John was referring to good parenting helps to raise good kids rather than luck, it has nothing to do with that horrible accident,,,,two totally different things.

Of course they are totally unrelated. Lew I was trying a feeble attempt to show how sometimes luck is a real thing. I still am of the opinion that very, very good parents can have bad offspring. Bad luck? What else can it be? And the opposite can be true when very bad parents can have children that become adults and good contributors to society and law abiding citizens. I have personally seen both scenarios many times. I can't explain how Brian's kids became criminals and many kids of drug addled abusive alcoholic parents that kids are taken away from and put into the Foster system have survived the abuse and went on to become good contributors to society. In engineering there is something called a sinusoidal curve. In any process, operation that is closely controlled actually anything from the weather, the perfect storm scenario that can not be controlled, to sports when a few or many things go to the bottom of the curve bad things can happen. A series of unfortunate events that will usually cause a failure. To have them fail all at the same time can only be called bad luck, if there isn't a failure it's good luck. I might be out to lunch but I can only explain some things in life as lucky or unlucky. Not very scientific I know. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[SirCranksalot]

I think it's more a matter of genes than luck. But bear in mind that peers have a big influence. Maybe the good kids hung out with a good crowd and the other kids with 'punks in training'. Parental influence is quite big but is also limited. 

 

It has been my own first hand experience that easy going kids are more easily swayed by peer pressure whereas the 'strong-willed kids'(who parents often complain about) are less likely to do so 

[pics]

Good parenting goes a long way.  A stable home helps too but peer pressure can sometimes get the best of a good kid. Especially ones that may be looking for belonging....

[Old Ironmaker]

On 10/17/2019 at 4:08 PM, Sinker said:

 Kids these days get everything they want, but nothing they need. 

It was Aristotle or Socrates that said the exact same thing about the generation of youth in his time. That was a few thousand years ago, many things don't change. We are starting to sound like our parents. My father called us The Pepsi Cola generation or The long haired Hippy Beatles generation. 

It was Aristotle he said Quote:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Edited October 21, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[Old Ironmaker]

Some interesting facts witnesses recount in the minutes leading up to the murder. The authorities must take responsibility for failing this kid. I don't know if it was right or wrong for an adult to confront those that have been charged with murder minutes before the killing. If the school, school board and the Police had have been effective I don't think the adult would have decided to intervene. Where were the Cops? Why weren't they called as soon as the adult was assaulted with pepper spray? Many questions here. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/devan-selvey-stabbing-1.5332475

Edited October 28, 2019 by Old Ironmaker

[NAW]

I thought that was really messed up as well.  Parent goes to talk with the kids who have been bullying his son and his sons friend.      Said bully's mace the father.  While that father goes inside to clean out his eyes, said bully's stab his sons best friend to death in front of his mother.  what the hell is going on??  Things happen really quickly I guess. 

 

The reason the parents where at the school is because the kids where sent to the office that day directly because of these bullies (from what I understand).  So there was obviously some "activity" earlier that day that started all of this.

Edited October 28, 2019 by NAW

[Old Ironmaker]

2 incidents of stabbings on the weekend in Hamilton. 1 was a pre arranged knife fight. The 2nd a home invasion. Both incidents involved teens. I never heard of a single stabbing when I was a teen growing up in Hamilton. A close friends son was stabbed during a fight in Hess Village in Hamilton a few years ago. When will these teens graduate to shootings which happens with regularity in Hamilton amongst other gangs and drug dealers? 

[SirCranksalot]

Looks like any action taken by the school was quite ineffective. There was a CBC prog on a nite or 2 ago about bullying incl a case in Collingwood in which a kid was badly beaten. Once again,the school didn't seem to do much. The VP,in particular, was quite unhelpful. Dereliction of duty.IMO.   

[Old Ironmaker]

20 minutes ago, SirCranksalot said:

Looks like any action taken by the school was quite ineffective. There was a CBC prog on a nite or 2 ago about bullying incl a case in Collingwood in which a kid was badly beaten. Once again,the school didn't seem to do much. The VP,in particular, was quite unhelpful. Dereliction of duty.IMO.   

Exactly SirCranks, all the authorities seem to be doing is giving lip service. More than a few of the "authorities" should be tossed to the curb loosing their 6 digit figure salaries and benefits. With responsibility there must be culpability. I see huge law suits in the future.

[SirCranksalot]

I'd like to see a few of their asses dragged into court over these types of incidents. Per the CBC prog,many schools are not reporting it to the bd as they are req'd to do. e.g.some reported zero incidents!! yeah, right!!