Billy Bob Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Scientific evidence should be making these decisions. Science doesn't have an opinion. All it has is evidence and truth. The only concern that science has is that it is producing factual knowledge and reasonable solutions. These decisions should not be made by arrogant and ignorant individuals with no evidence or education to decipher evidence in the particular field of discussion. There should not be an armed uprising of the unqualified running around the countryside shooting everything they deem to be overpopulated or generally a detriment to their view of society. Edit: Typo SO....where's your science of these black flying fish eating rats.... ...what good are they ?!?!? Enquiring anglers want to know....not when it's too late....until then BANG goes the 12 gauge.... BTW the USA and Canadian governments have reacted on this problem by oiling the eggs of these flying rats....it's their way of trying to keep everyone (see tree huggers) happy without really controlling the problem. Much like closing the open window to keep out the bugs all while both doors remain wide open... Edited January 11, 2012 by Billy Bob
hirk Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Scientific evidence should be making these decisions. Science doesn't have an opinion. All it has is evidence and truth. The only concern that science has is that it is producing factual knowledge and reasonable solutions. These decisions should not be made by arrogant and ignorant individuals with no evidence or education to decipher evidence in the particular field of discussion. There should not be an armed uprising of the unqualified running around the countryside shooting everything they deem to be overpopulated or generally a detriment to their view of society. Edit: Typo Agree 100%, I personally wouldnt shoot them, its not my place to do anything. The science has shown there is a problem that requires intervention which is way there have already been actions taken by the govt. in Ontario to reduce the numbers.
captpierre Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Grimace, your science argument likely doesn't work well in the real world. Good, hard science is not easy to come by and takes lots of time. In the face of an outbreak of disease or potentially a harmful population explosion, by the time science gets it right, and everybody in the scientific community agrees, it's too late. Also, our decision makers have to contend with getting re-elected and therefore are sometimes reluctant to make the right decision if it makes for controversy, or might cost them votes. So the status-quot is maintained. Our fishery is already under significant stress due to the reduction of the tiny organisms that make up the bottom of the food chain, thanks to the invasive mussel species introduced. I have no problem with a modest number of cormorants. Everybody has the right to make a living. I just struggle with a potential additional stress on the fishery being left to get out of control, while being protected by a government that has seen them recover back very healthy numbers. my two cents
manitoubass2 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Scientific evidence should be making these decisions. Science doesn't have an opinion. All it has is evidence and truth. The only concern that science has is that it is producing factual knowledge and reasonable solutions. These decisions should not be made by arrogant and ignorant individuals with no evidence or education to decipher evidence in the particular field of discussion. There should not be an armed uprising of the unqualified running around the countryside shooting everything they deem to be overpopulated or generally a detriment to their view of society. Edit: Typo I agree, you have to let science dictate if it's actually an issue or not. But science pretty much ends there, it's the organizations that the science is presented to that have to do something (or nothing) and that's where the problems arise.
cram Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Well said. Instead of blaming cormorants for just doing what comes naturally, let's try to find out WHY their numbers have rapidly increased in the past few decades. No species exists in isolation,something has changed in the environment that has allowed them to flourish. What if we found out that they are pigging out on, and thereby controlling, round goby populations. Would we be so eager to kill them then? With all the technological advances in fishing gear sport fisherman have it better today than we have ever had it in history. We complain because cormorants eat fish? Here's a shock for you - FISH EAT FISH! Guess we should control all predatory fish species too, which is... um... oh, all of them. I don't think there are any vegetarian species in Ontario, but I am willing to be corrected on that. Except for having been here before, how exactly are cormorants different from round gobies? Their population growth and impacts on the ecosystem don't seem that different from any other invasive species. Also - Dr Sal....please tell me you don't honestly like these things?
danbouck Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 I always chuckle a bit when I see people post IMHO when they clearly mean IMO. IMHO - In my honest opinion
Grimace Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) IMHO - In my honest opinion Humble. http://www.internetslang.com/IMHO-meaning-definition.asp Edited January 11, 2012 by Grimace
mpt Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 I'm concerned about these birds my self. All the Fish and Wildlife types say they don't even make a dent in fish populations but they are trying to reduce their numbers in northern Michigan with nest oiling and more severe measures and fish populations are making a comeback. A cormorant eats at least a pound of fish per day. This doesn't seem like much but they can only eat smaller fish which reduces the total numbers of a fish population quickly and effects of reproduction may not be noticed for years and then it's too late. I wrote this last year. http://drdownriveroutdoors.blogspot.com/2011/04/cormorants.html The following month after I was told the birds in the Detroit River were only juveniles and weren't mating I posted this(middle of article) http://drdownriveroutdoors.blogspot.com/2011/05/river-trip.html I was urging people to report sightings of these birds which we were urged to do as part of the Downriver Walleye Federation but the same person that told me there was no mating in the area also told me the reports weren't compiled or followed up on so don't waste your time. We're told there's only about 20K mating pairs in Michigan but I think that number is very low.
Grimace Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 We're told there's only about 20K mating pairs in Michigan but I think that number is very low. I don't mean in any way to be disrespectful but I must ask. You think that the scientists are mistaken and there are more than 20 000 mating pairs in Michigan, correct? What data are you basing your position on? What do you feel are the flaws in their data collection techniques that are leading them to this false conclusion? What way do you claim your data collection to be more accurate than theirs?
Grimace Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Don't get me wrong. I hate the bloody things. All I am trying to say is before anyone orders or agrees to the systematic destruction of a species of animal in any region, the science has to be correct.
Billy Bob Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Don't get me wrong. I hate the bloody things. All I am trying to say is before anyone orders or agrees to the systematic destruction of a species of animal in any region, the science has to be correct. Don't remember anyone calling for that....but for thinning the herd, I'm all for that....remember, hunters have controlled wildlife for years.
mercman Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 but for thinning the herd, I'm all for that.... Last time i looked Bob, Many birds was considered a Flock, unless its Geese, which would be a gaggle. herd is usually used when speaking of 4 legged,grass eating, animals. You could possible use it when speaking of Rats, but i am not sure of this.
Guest ThisPlaceSucks Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Don't remember anyone calling for that....but for thinning the herd, I'm all for that....remember, hunters have controlled wildlife for years. if you're going to eat them, i have no problem having a hunting season on them. last i heard they were all but inedible. Edited January 11, 2012 by Dr. Salvelinus
Terry Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 well then lets eat them bet they taste like fish
mercman Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 bet they taste like fish They say you are what you eat Good chance the DO taste like fish
smally21 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 we're not supposed to kill the adult birds, but people get paid to kill their offspring....
Billy Bob Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 if you're going to eat them, i have no problem having a hunting season on them. last i heard they were all but inedible. Breasted out, cooked and ground up for dog food....
captpierre Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Full of mercury and other contaminants
Twocoda Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Breasted out, cooked and ground up for dog food.... Cormorant Recipe Having shot your cormorant, hold it well away from you as you carry it home; these birds are exceedingly verminous and the lice are said to be not entirely host-specific. Hang up by the feet with a piece of wire, soak in petrol and set on fire. This treatment both removes most of the feathers and kills the lice. When the smoke has cleared away, take the cormorant down and cut off the beak. Send this to the local Conservancy Board who, if you are in the right area, will give you 3/6d or sometimes 5/- for it. Bury the carcase, preferably in a light sandy soil, and leave it there for a fortnight. This is said to improve the flavour by removing, in part at least, the taste of rotting fish. Dig up and skin and draw the bird. Place in a strong salt and water solution and soak for 48 hours. Remove, dry, stuff with whole, unpeeled onions: the onion skins are supposed to bleach the meat to a small extent, so that it is very dark brown instead of being entirely black. Simmer gently in seawater, to which two tablespoons of chloride of lime have been added, for six hours. This has a further tenderising effect. Take out of the water and allow to dry, meanwhile mixing up a stiff paste of methylated spirit and curry powder. Spread this mixture liberally over the breast of the bird. Finally roast in a very hot oven for three hours. The result is unbelievable. Throw it away. Not even a starving vulture would eat it. Why would you let your dog? Edited January 12, 2012 by Twocoda
mercman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Cormorant Recipe Having shot your cormorant, hold it well away from you as you carry it home; these birds are exceedingly verminous and the lice are said to be not entirely host-specific. Hang up by the feet with a piece of wire, soak in petrol and set on fire. This treatment both removes most of the feathers and kills the lice. When the smoke has cleared away, take the cormorant down and cut off the beak. Send this to the local Conservancy Board who, if you are in the right area, will give you 3/6d or sometimes 5/- for it. Bury the carcase, preferably in a light sandy soil, and leave it there for a fortnight. This is said to improve the flavour by removing, in part at least, the taste of rotting fish. Dig up and skin and draw the bird. Place in a strong salt and water solution and soak for 48 hours. Remove, dry, stuff with whole, unpeeled onions: the onion skins are supposed to bleach the meat to a small extent, so that it is very dark brown instead of being entirely black. Simmer gently in seawater, to which two tablespoons of chloride of lime have been added, for six hours. This has a further tenderising effect. Take out of the water and allow to dry, meanwhile mixing up a stiff paste of methylated spirit and curry powder. Spread this mixture liberally over the breast of the bird. Finally roast in a very hot oven for three hours. The result is unbelievable. Throw it away. Not even a starving vulture would eat it. Why would you let your dog? Place the Holy Hand Grenade upon its Breast, and in a strong voice shall thou count to three. Not four or not even two, but three. Three shall be the number.Thou shalt not count to nine even........
Spouph Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Posted January 12, 2012 I only shoot if I can get more than one with one shot I know this guy who has a cormorant band....he found it dead on a beach Poor little bird. We're not sure what happened to it. Must have choked on a baby walleye or something I don't think there is a C.O out there who would lay a charge for shooting one. It would take some bleeding heart, P3TA freak to cause a ruckus in order for anyone to get charged. In all honesty, there sure are a lot of them. This year while duck hunting we saw literally tens of thousands. I'd take the boat thru a flock of 1000 of them just to get them moving.(right in front of cliffs house too!!) Just think of all the fish 1000 of them will eat in a day, a week, a month ....a year. Its incredible. I've witnessed them eating walleye, perch and crappies in the kawartha lakes. Just think what 1000 of them will do!! 10 years ago, I didn't even know they existed. Just wait another 10 and see how many there are!! I think they will eat themselves out of food, start to starve, and then we will have to re stock our lakes. By the time anything gets done about it, we will have no fish to catch, and an infestation of sick, dying birds to deal with. I wonder how much disease they carry with them? I have this funny feeling some of our invasive species, and fish virus's are carried around by them as well. Just thin them out a bit now, and it will save us a lot of work down the road. I'm not saying kill them all, but keep them in check. Look at the numbers of canada geese we have....and there are plenty of opportunities to hunt them, as well as annual egg oiling....but the population still rises every year. It will be the same as everything else with the MNR. Too little, too late. By the time anything gets done, there will be no fish left, and millions of cormorants to feed. Whats more important, the fishery in ontario, or some cormorants? The answer is a simple one in my eyes. S. I absolutly agree with you. There seems to be a few people suggesting let nature take it's course, but the subsequent concequence on us as fisherman is huge. Selfish as a fisherman, but I have valunteered my time to hatcheries, spent time restocking rivers in B.C with Coho when numbers are down, and given money to groups to help fisheries. I give more than I take....I do in fact take alot and enjoy the afterall I am a part of the food chain, but hopfully as a species, we arent so stupid as to eat all of our food, with no plans for the future get sick and die. The one thing that you said that may be overlooked is the transfer of disease, from one lake to another...VHS anyone, the sad truth is that that comment is probally void due to the fact that the fish population is so low, that the disease wont transfer through low density. Stupid birds, aswesome creatures actually.
Skipper D Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Paul , are you talking like the guy who was pushed out of the plane and told to count to ten then pull the cord , no body knew he studdered real bad and on the way down he was heard yelling wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa one , tt t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t .....
Spouph Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Posted January 12, 2012 If fish populations were rising as fast as the cormorant population, I'd have no problem. Whats gonna happen when we run out of fish?? We all suffer, not only cormorants. I have no doubt they're eating gobies in some lakes, but around here, we don't have them, so I'd say they're feeding on sportfish primarily. They will probably drop a few gobie eggs in the kawartha's though....isn't that just gonna be great!! I have no problem with cormorants as a species, its the massive boom in thier population i have a problem with. They need a bit of help in controlling it. As long as we have lots of fish, the population will continue to rise.....do the math. Sure, give it 10 or 15 years and let them thin themselves out, but what about our fish stocks?? We gonna let them thin out as well?? I don't think its worth it for a few dirty birds. Their negatives, by far, out weigh the positives. I like the idea with the natives. That is a great idea IMO. S. My two cents on this is that goby's are invasive, and when they first appeared years sgo they were not reconised as a food fish for native species such as bass and walleye, subsequently, there population exploded. there was a huge panic. Since that has occoured the bass have reconised goby as a food source, and perch and other native species are on the rise. Goby plastic baits are now quite popular on lake erie. Saying that I have yet to see any benifit from the cormerants, years ago I could see golbies as a potitntial food sorce, but I don't see the birds benifit. I am educated with a scientific background, and practial feild experience in fisheries and wildlife... I ask the questions as a sort of research. saying that my opinion is simular to yours.
Guest ThisPlaceSucks Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 there's a strange mix of redneck logic and grade 10 biology going on in this thread. carry on.
Sinker Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 there's a strange mix of redneck logic and grade 10 biology going on in this thread. carry on. So I guess your the authority on this matter? What do you have, 3 years experience?? Last I remember you were looking for a welding job. Give your head a shake. If you really want to defend these birds, join an animal rights group!! S.
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