My biology teacher thinks C&R is bad

[GoneFishin]

She's probably not looking at it from a personal perspective. A percentage of your fish are most likely harmed from either the hook or the fight/handling. But most fishermen can use there judgment and keep a harmed fish instead of wasting it.

[Dozer]

Of course its torture! Duh!

 

I guess the argument could be the stress of being out of the water and all... but I mean,to state that it would prefer to be eaten? C'mon... The fish will forget about it in a matter of seconds.

[dave524]

Whether or not the fish feels pain or is traumatised by the experience was really not part of the argument.

The fact was that once you remove fishing for food out of the equation you have reduced fish to a plaything for our enjoyment and that is morally wrong, not unlike bullfighting, noodle fighting or dog fighting. Want to play , get a video game or Cronzy batter

[Fish4Eyes]

I didn't know that Carrie Underwood was a teacher....

 

She could teach me ANYTHING she wants

[JohnF]

Teachers are people, too. We all find it hard to resist whatever podium is available to us to express our own beliefs. Because teachers are entrusted with young impressionable minds we have to hold them to a higher standard of discretion.

 

JF

[torco]

I think we need to relax we are getting a little bent out of shape over a comment that probably wasn't thought through. I have also encountered this opinion from people who are not informed on the subject.

 

I will add this I think it was the nature of things or another show and they were trying to determine whether fish feel pain and I think the conclusion was they didn't know yet but that it was unlikely they did. They certainly feel something and do feel stress but it is thought that the brain of fish lacks the complexity of mammals to turn stress/pain into what we know as a pain to be a much more emotional and complex response or something along those lines.

 

Anyways it leaves the possibility that fish feel pain and that C & R could be considered cruel if that was ever proven. However many anglers go above and beyond to put the least amount of stress on fish with C & R including barbless hooks, etc.

[fisher]

IS THIS AN ESSAY/DEBATE QUESTION YOU HAVE?

 

And you are just looking to get some opinions for your argument?

 

I can't see a teacher being so closed minded on the subject. Just my first impression based on how you worded your post - "Discuss.".

 

If so, very clever .

[Mykester]

IS THIS AN ESSAY/DEBATE QUESTION YOU HAVE?

 

And you are just looking to get some opinions for your argument?

 

I can't see a teacher being so closed minded on the subject. Just my first impression based on how you worded your post - "Discuss.".

 

If so, very clever .

 

Nope, I mean I would LOVE to debate about a topic like this but I really couldn't see how this would fit into our curriculum, the Toronto education system cares more about human physiology and biotechnology rather than ichthyology. And yeah, I didn't really post this for the teacher to get bashed, I mean she's a great teacher and like someone else mentioned, getting some "ammo" was one of the reasons I posted the topic, but I guess as well to expose people to the ignorance of this world.

[Twocoda]

almost makes you wonder how we as mammals can debate over the complexity of a fishes brain and the relativity of it to register pain when we cant even understand our own brains....but ....if you set a hook...is there a reaction?? yes the fish runs...if you open the bail and ease off the pressure does the fish still run? not normally....that to me sounds like an indication of some level of pain.....when a lamprey connects to a fish does it not flight to get it off????another indication of pain....lets say a human gets his ear pierced....initial piercing is somewhat discomforting but we feel it and it subsides ...now lets tie a rope to the earing and pull on it ...do ya think its going to hurt continuously while the pressure is on?... i think so ....based on simple physics of action and reaction....do they cry when i catch their mate????who knows ....cant see tears under the water...lol...

 

i would hope a teacher would base his or her perception based on actual facts....albeit right or wrong at the time...but based on something to support their beliefs

 

catch and release ...to each is their own ....its a definite that its favorable so the fish can live to feel pain again

 

isnt stress a form of a feeling ???? if they can feel stress ...why wouldnt they feel pain?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Twocoda

[muddler]

As a retired teacher, I have (and always had) a serious problem with anyone voicing an opinion to a closed audience, especially young impressionable minds. As adults we are well equipped to know the difference between fact and fiction and a half-truth (well most of the time anyway). The job of every teacher is/was always to teach students how to learn the ciriculumn. Personal bias and opinions have NO place in the classroom. Personal beliefs and personal moral values should never be discussed in the classroom. The key word here is "Personal".

 

My advice to this teacher is simple, if she wants to voice her opinion then voice it in any public forum she wants, even this one, but leave the kids out of it.

 

 

muddler

[JohnF]

almost makes you wonder how we as mammals can debate over the complexity of a fishes brain and the relativity of it to register pain when we cant even understand our own brains....but ....if you set a hook...is there a reaction?? yes the fish runs...if you open the bail and ease off the pressure does the fish still run? not normally....that to me sounds like an indication of some level of pain.....when a lamprey connects to a fish does it not flight to get it off????another indication of pain....lets say a human gets his ear pierced....initial piercing is somewhat discomforting but we feel it and it subsides ...now lets tie a rope to the earing and pull on it ...do ya think its going to hurt continuously while the pressure is on?... i think so ....based on simple physics of action and reaction....do they cry when i catch their mate????who knows ....cant see tears under the water...lol...

 

i would hope a teacher would base his or her perception based on actual facts....albeit right or wrong at the time...but based on something to support their beliefs

 

catch and release ...to each is their own ....its a definite that its favorable so the fish can live to feel pain again

 

isnt stress a form of a feeling ???? if they can feel stress ...why wouldnt they feel pain?

 

All living creatures have a fight or flight reaction. In most fish there isn't much to fight with so it's a more basic flight thing I guess.

 

The stress we hear about in played fish is a physical trauma, not an emotional one. It's different to the stress usually experienced by higher life forms like us humans. I doubt fish have the brain capacity to experience much in the way of emotion. They basically only know to breed when it's time, guard the eggs in their time, eat, and run from a threat. Kids cartoons have given us a distorted sense of what emotions and awareness animals are capable of. It's doubtful in the real world Bambi would have really grieved over his mom much. In fact he probably would have sniffed around a bit and then got on with the business of trying to survive. He'd the food and warmth.

 

JF

[Mykester]

I doubt fish have the brain capacity to experience much in the way of emotion.

 

They don't. The article that was linked here (the Gord Ellis one) states that "the conscious experience of pain or suffering is due to activity in the cortex of the brain. That activity is located in a specialized kind of cortex called the neo-cortex, which is very large in humans. Fish don't possess a neo-cortex. They literally don't have the brain system to feel pain or other emotions like fear."

[ChrisK]

She says you're torturing the fish and it's better to eat it than throw it back. Discuss.

 

I thinks that fish feel more pain when they get there guts torn out and eatin alive by bears.. Discuss

[Marty]

This thread acutally reached 4 pages? . . . discuss.

[Oggie]

Well I'll give the other side of the coin. I'm a retired biology teacher who often taught environmental science and in that course there was a unit on fisheries and wildlife managament. The topic of catch and release was often discussed with the pros and cons. The kids knew I would take a fish when I choose too. Hell I brought a big rainbow in for a class dissection (beats those damn pickled perch).

 

It's good to have a descenting voice to provoke thought and discussion (not that it should be the teacher who descents). The kids know you're point of view even if you don't come out and say it. They're pretty persceptive by grade 12. What the teacher said is no big deal unless she is presenting it as the only side to the issue and won't allow discussion.

 

BTW that view of C&R is really common in teachers as you move from more rural to more urban. Same with anti-hunting!

 

I hear there bring environmental science back to the curriculum. Let's hope they get teacher's who see things from a conservation point of view not preservation.

DanO.

[Cudz]

Whats that old expression ? THOSE WHO CAN DO THOSE WHO CANT , TEACH

I think you forgot part of this quote.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed.

 

I teach phys ed. Woo hoo.

 

I talk about my love for fishing all the time to kids at school. I know lots of students don't like it but I do and I tell them it is my opinion. I don't talk about torturing fish and I rarely talk about eating them. Mostly I just talk about the fact that I like fishing.

 

I wore a WFN t-shirt to school under my zippered hoodie and made sure it was unzipped enough to see the orange WFN crest. I then explained that WFN (in my opinion) was the best network on TV. Anyone who disagreed lost 5% off their final mark. No one disaggreed

 

 

J/K by the way about the students losing 5% because they didn't agree with me. Don't want to get anyone's panties in a knot here.

 

Oh, by the way I teach in an area where kids drive more sleds to school than they do cars and they often take a week off school to go hunting so my opinion and love for fishing is shared by many.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Cudz

[Billy Bob]

My sister is a teacher who has said to me MANY times she will never eat venison.......guess what she ate at half time during the Super Bowl....that's right Chili made with venison and she LOVED it......never told her but my brother in-law knew as it was his idea....so I guess them there learners in the school house ain't so smart after all are they ???

[Rizzo]

First she asked if "I was a fish and I know for a fact it doesn't hurt"

 

what a weak argument leaving herself open to the very obvious "so are you a fish and know for a fact it does hurt" question. This is the best our educators can come up with? Even if you have to agree to disagree, you should at least learn from your teachers how to reason/form arguments/debate...not this foolishness.

[BillM]

.....is anyone surprised the teacher is a 'she'?

 

/runs and hides

[daryl0815]

I just think that nobody has taken the baloney boat to tuna town with her for too long.

 

If there was a large amount of pain to the fish, I wouldnt have caught the same bass twice within 20 minutes, or the same rainbow twice within half an hour, or multiple salmon and trout with hooks stuck in their yaps.

[Dutchy]

It's doubtful in the real world Bambi would have really grieved over his mom much.

 

JF

 

That mad me laugh. But there is evidence that some animals do "grieve". Thats a whole other story though. Humans are very arrogant about what animals do and don't feel, maybe it makes us feel better about the way we treat them. The problem is on the one had we say don't assign human traits to animals, but then we try to judge an animals behaviour based on our behaviour. Makes no sense.

 

Regarding the fish, do they feel pain, I don't know. They sure as hell are going to feel the pressure though which I am sure is not real comfortable.

 

Not sure why some people are getting so bent out of shape on this. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even teachers.

[Dutchy]

or multiple salmon and trout with hooks stuck in their yaps.

 

How is a fish going to remove a hook that is stuck in its mouth? The best they can hope is that it rusts out. Doesn't mean they don't feel pain from it.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Dutchy

[dave524]

I think most are missing the point here, this movement to ban C&R fishing is not based on whether the fish feels pain or whether C&R is better for the population of the species. They know they will lose the argument on these grounds, I dare say most animal right groups have more PR spin doctors on staff than trained biologists. Their argument is based solely on whether it is morally and ethically right for humans to reduce an animal to basically a plaything for our enjoyment or to stroke our egos.

[Terry]

and that is why I think every type of fish may need a slot size reg.

that way C&R is mandatory and not just a morally and ethically right for humans to reduce an animal to basically a plaything for our enjoyment or to stroke our egos.

[Guest gbfisher]

I think most are missing the point here, this movement to ban C&R fishing is not based on whether the fish feels pain or whether C&R is better for the population of the species. They know they will lose the argument on these grounds, I dare say most animal right groups have more PR spin doctors on staff than trained biologists. Their argument is based solely on whether it is morally and ethically right for humans to reduce an animal to basically a plaything for our enjoyment or to stroke our egos.

 

Im not so sure who is missing the point....

All animals eh?!.....how about horse racing...dog racing....horse riding....dog sledding. Just to name a few for our enjoyment....lol Not my thing but I sure wouldn't try and tell the ones who enjoy it to stop! Hell we just shouldn't have pets...lmao

Not many use fishing to stroke their ego but if a few do..so what!

Using an animal for a plaything... ...well...I'm not sure about you but I'm pretty sure most do not use animals as "play things"....and the ones who do end up in rehab....lol

These P3TA ideals are for people who just can't get passed the fact that we are human and thankfully on top of the food chain.