BillM Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Inspectors aren't there to check workmanship, they are there to make sure it's done to code correct? Even if it looks like crap, but up to code, what do you expect the inspector to do? (honest question) Can he say redo it, even if it meets code?
Mattones Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) I myself am a carpenter. Mattamy use to be horrible. All they cared about was the closing time. The product they gave us 90% of the time was horrible. They wouldnt replace it so we had to use it. These past 2 years I must admit they have gotten better with treating their trades better. EDIT- removed what I said because i figure what if someone here works for Mattamy Edited January 14, 2009 by Mattones
radar Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) I worked at HGTV when Mike came in and either volunteered his time or got paid peanuts (8$/hr?) to make this numb-nut Jon Eakes look good. He gave up his contracting job for the chance. He said from day one he had an idea for a show and he was going to be heard. His helper Shawn in the early seasons was Jon Eakes' other helper and did a great dang job too. Mike came out and designed a car port for my wife and I and his other buddy (dark hair - great guy - did the caulking contest with Mike on a galley kitchen show and was a judge when they raced to fram the matching windows in the mould episode) did a great frigin job (but $$$). Slowly he won over one of the executives at HGTV and built a straw insulated house for him (paid - expiremtnal thing) . He got hooked up with an up and coming producer Scott McNeil and a really good camera man took Shwn with him (and his buddy who di my car port - damn what's his name?) and boom the show took off. The homeowner covers the majority of the costs and he get sto do what he wants. Brutal hours for the crew. For those griping about what he does - this is television - he ain't gonna do middle of the road and make the $$$ we talk about. AND PS - I bought in a new subdivision - house is crap. and I hate it. Builders screwed with me because I was demenading - but never rude. The workers were treated like gold with coffee, food, snacks and a bevvie at the end of a day if they wanted, so many of my repairs were ok. Edited January 14, 2009 by radar
jonnybass Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Yes, he has acted as an advocate for the consumer and has the spirit of an advocate. The way he is doing things is the most effective way he knows how (its more than just the show).. forrest You're right. Edited January 14, 2009 by jonnybass
Jigger Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Theres definately a gap between inspectors that know what they're doing, inspectors that are just learning and inspectors that don't care... I've seen inspectors kick guys offsite for less than not having their ticket. Drywall removal is par for the course. We've also dealt with experienced inspectors that would pass our houses and just spot check them, knowing our work was sound after working with them for years. They just made sure we tested our pipes (plumber by trade) and if we called in 5 or 6 houses, he would check one or two. But then had inspectors that wouldn't show for days and you'd never know whether something was amiss or not... A huge problem these days is that things don't flow properly and, like Mattones said, all they (SOME builders. Do your homework) care about is closing time. People are rushed and quality of workmanship suffers.
Beats Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I heard the Holmes On Homes site is up again..
Lowe Rider Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I myself am a carpenter. Mattamy use to be horrible. All they cared about was the closing time. The product they gave us 90% of the time was horrible. They wouldnt replace it so we had to use it. These past 2 years I must admit they have gotten better with treating their trades better. EDIT- removed what I said because i figure what if someone here works for Mattamy I agree with MH but do not like his personality on TV. I know someone who has worked there for 15yrs and says they are getting worse and they are in management. Years ago it was the norm to have the house finished weeks before the PDI so they could go through the house and make sure things were as good as it can be for the home owner. Now they have crazy closing dates and the pressure to put out more and more houses, faster and faster has seriously affected quality. It is not only at Mattamy but builders across the GTA. Trades are being pushed to the max and just don't seem to care because the builder doesn't. If you tell a crew the house needs to be rough framed in three or four days instead of seven or ten guess what, they are going to cut some corners or they find someone who can and they do. Someone earlier said peace work is the problem as well, the faster you go the more units you can do, the more money you make, the more short cuts you take. I've watched it for years, that why I don't like working housing projects anymore. People spend so much money on these houses it's a shame to watch them be thrown together so fast and carefree. As for inspectors in housing I've seen cases where the guy never leaves the trailer and passes a bunch of stuff sight unseen. Once a bunch of houses were drywalled without insulation inspection, was it wrong who knows? The big boss showed up, the inspector left and the houses continued on, no drywall removed, your guess is as good as mine as to what happened in there. To be fair I have also seen guys that check everything and are a pain in the supers side. On commercial jobs a lot of the inspections are carried out by consultants and not much is passed by because if there is a problem they signed it off and could be sued. It seems to me, to be more oversight in the commercial/industrial side of things than housing. I dig footings and more often than not I have a soil guy checking every foot of ground I dig. If it isn't up to his liking I dig till I hit good ground. Boss doesn't mind he gets paid for anything over plan spec. I wouldn't buy a new house with everything I've seen over the years. Buy old or get a good custom builder.
Gerritt Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I worked at HGTV when Mike came in and either volunteered his time or got paid peanuts (8$/hr?) to make this numb-nut Jon Eakes look good. He gave up his contracting job for the chance. He said from day one he had an idea for a show and he was going to be heard. His helper Shawn in the early seasons was Jon Eakes' other helper and did a great dang job too. Mike came out and designed a car port for my wife and I and his other buddy (dark hair - great guy - did the caulking contest with Mike on a galley kitchen show and was a judge when they raced to fram the matching windows in the mould episode) did a great frigin job (but $$$). Slowly he won over one of the executives at HGTV and built a straw insulated house for him (paid - expiremtnal thing) . He got hooked up with an up and coming producer Scott McNeil and a really good camera man took Shwn with him (and his buddy who di my car port - damn what's his name?) and boom the show took off. The homeowner covers the majority of the costs and he get sto do what he wants. Brutal hours for the crew. For those griping about what he does - this is television - he ain't gonna do middle of the road and make the $$$ we talk about. AND PS - I bought in a new subdivision - house is crap. and I hate it. Builders screwed with me because I was demenading - but never rude. The workers were treated like gold with coffee, food, snacks and a bevvie at the end of a day if they wanted, so many of my repairs were ok. Thanks for validating my post Scott is a great guy! and the straw house is awesome! it just looks out of place in the neighbourhood.... G
rhare Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Where are the building inspectors in all of these cases? I work in construction and in my neck of the woods, you don't get away with any of this crap. When you buy your permit, you can expect inspections. And you better be sure that you are a ticketed tradesman or you're in big trouble. The Ministry of labor checks us for tickets. I know of cases when the drywall was out up before the insulation was inspected. Nope. Take all of the drywall off so the insulation can be inspected and passed. Perhaps this is the fault of shoddy construction practices in southern Ontario? Not enough enforcement? A friend of mine who is a builder had to rip the finished drywall off of a finished staircase because the handrail was 1/2" lower than code. He had to replace the backing to raise the hand rail 1/2". You won't get away with any of this stuff here. Why aren't these houses inspected by competent inspectors as they are being built? And why are they being built by unqualified workers? I live and work in the same Province. You'd be in jail if you tried to pull this stunt in the north. Its the same everywhere, inspections, inspections and more inspections. Its not that these house are not built to code. Its the crap type of materials that code is allowing the builders to use. Everything is scaled down to a min. Min. material = max profits. so at the end of the day the house passes the inspection. but doors are hung wrong, trim is falling off and the joints look like you cut them with your teeth, tile is uneven the list goes on. this type of stuff is NOT inspected. This is detail work that is typically rushed through. The code is the same through out the province and most of the time the further you get up north the fewer number of inspectors there are, contractors get to know them well and get treated accordingly. As far as licenses go what does it really prove? The house has to pass code or it cant be finished. just because you can frame a house to code doesnt mean that you have a great eye for detail and that is what is going to make or break your new home. People dont see the frame work they see the detail and finish work. Does a license actually make a contractor more qualified??
holdfast Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Its the same everywhere, inspections, inspections and more inspections. Its not that these house are not built to code. Its the crap type of materials that code is allowing the builders to use. Everything is scaled down to a min. Min. material = max profits.so at the end of the day the house passes the inspection. but doors are hung wrong, trim is falling off and the joints look like you cut them with your teeth, tile is uneven the list goes on. this type of stuff is NOT inspected. This is detail work that is typically rushed through. The code is the same through out the province and most of the time the further you get up north the fewer number of inspectors there are, contractors get to know them well and get treated accordingly. As far as licenses go what does it really prove? The house has to pass code or it cant be finished. just because you can frame a house to code doesnt mean that you have a great eye for detail and that is what is going to make or break your new home. People dont see the frame work they see the detail and finish work. Does a license actually make a contractor more qualified?? It should but it Dont, just look at your Licenced drivers.
rhare Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 It should but it Dont, just look at your Licenced drivers. isnt that the truth!!!
steve_paul Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I enjoy the Mike Holmes show and in my opinion, he does open the eyes of consumers which is a good thing. With respect to new homes and their quality, I will only speak about what I know and quite frankly the HVAC systems being installed in the new homes here are crap. Who is to blame?? The builder who doesn't give the subs enough money to put in a quality system, the subs who put in a system that is cheap and poorly built with little warranty protection just to be able to turn a small profit or the consumer who doesn't do their homework and in the end received crap. Jonnybass, not to single you out, but you are asking is anyone dying in these homes. No, nobody is dying but the problems of poorly built homes will manifest themselves down the road. Here, the new homes are built air tight with no ventilation installed. This is leading to great big problems down the road with mould issues. No one is dying but the related health issues of mould and bacteria and the resultant costs of cleanup and restoration is huge. Why no ventilation - it adds $1400 to the cost from the HVAC sub to the builder and they don't want to pay that. They offer it as a option on the home but the consumer is not educated enough to be willing to pay the builder's price to install the ventilation system. Again who is to blame?? Mike Holmes at least is doing something about educating the consumer so they can make more informed choices such as "Is it worth it to spend $2500 on a ventilation system?" Many don't make the right choice and then wonder why on a cold day such as today they can't see out of their windows as they are frosted over with condensation. All that moisture is going to go somewhere and in the end, years from now, the lack of education on a consumers part will lead them to ask why all their baseboards and walls are turning black in the basement. My concern as a consumer would be that if they are cheaping out so much on the HVAC system, where else are they cutting corners. Mike Holmes helps answer those questions to those of us who don't know everything.
Headhunter Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 It seems to me that one major problem we have is that min. code is just that minimum, and we should be considering a couple of things... 1) Raising the standards of min. code 2) Raising the standards and or numbers of inspectors 3) Seeing consumers recieve huge payouts from builders and governments as a result of court action. If a house is certified by a goverment payed employee and it is not to code, then I think the government should and does have an obligation to pay. I also think the inspectors should have more accountabilty and I think an earlier post mentioned promoting experienced tradesman into the positions is an excellent idea. HH
forrest Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Posted January 14, 2009 Does a license actually make a contractor more qualified?? By themselves licenses do not but when combined with education, testing and certification they do. Ontario fishing licenses are an example of a license that does not require qualification, education or certification, it does not represent competency. An electricians license requires certification, that requires experience, that requires testing, that requires education. It represents a level of competency. An industry wide implementation of testing, certification and licensing increases the average competency and knowledge. Of course just like the existence of poor drivers there will still be poor trades people. How much worse would the roads be if there was no official driving education, testing, licensing and let anyone who applied drive? Can we all agree that education combined with licensing and certification increases a professional groups average qualifications? forrest
Roy Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Ontario fishing licenses are an example of a license that does not require qualification, education or certification, it does not represent competency. Much like the boater's card.
Dano Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Yea, he is definitely a horses . Must be tough being the only contractor who knows how to do things right......in his own mind anyway.
irishfield Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 Might have been good if he'd "followed the insulation" around Orangeville too bud ! lol
mikeh Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 I've watched a few of his shows and enjoyed them. On most of the programs it seems that there is a problem with the insulation or vapour barriers, which are probably covered up by drywall before the homes are inspected. I wonder how many of the homeowners sue the contractors using the show as there evidence?
Guest gbfisher Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 may have been said but... I like the way he over looks the clients pocket book. Jobs do go by what people can afford and or DON'T care about. If it looks good do it. The client is always right.
express168 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Mike is a little over the top sometimes but I still have fun watching him. I like some of what he does and shake my head at other things. I am a Home Inspector(not a municipal code inspector) and I inspect Residential and Commercial properties and even use a Thermal Imaging Camera like Mr. Mike says every inspector should. I have to say that my biggest increase in work is from clients wanting me to inspect there home for their 1 year Tarion warranty report. They are experiencing so many problems with their new homes, some the builders fault and some their own. I did one this week, the exterior outlets would not work the GFCI outlets would not reset and all breakers were on but stiill no power, the attic was missing areas of insulation that were very noticable on the Thermal Camera , The soaker tub and seperate shower in the master ensuite had the hot and cold water reversed, hot faucet turned on cold water cold faucet turned on hot. Then I had another couple that called me out to inspect their basement because of water problems on a 3 year old house, after digging down a little around their foundation I could notice that they did not have a waterproofing wrap done, dampproofing spray is all that is required by code. I asked why they did not get the wrap for the foundation? They said because it was going to be a $1,500 dollar upgrade and they did not think it was really that important. At this time I am looking around their main floor to see the granite counter tops with upgraded cabinets with crown moulding, marble tile foyer, and gleaming hardwood throughout. Buyers are looking at the "lipstick and mascara" as Mike puts it and not the structure that it is going on. Mike takes his shots at Home Inspectors to and it does not bother me because he is right about some of them, they are not worth the paper their report is written on. But when some one is spending $500,000 on a home and I quote them $450-$500 for the inspection and they say forget it we found a guy that says he will do it for $200 cash , be my guest and enjoy what you get in return. Quality contractors no matter what they do cost money and homeowners unfortunately aren't willing to pay for the best people to work on their largest investment. I love it when Mike punches a hole in a wall or pulls down a ceiling and says " I can't believe the inspector didn't find this!" If I could do that to a sellers property during a home inspection I would find everything to Mike! Edited January 14, 2009 by express168
bigugli Posted January 14, 2009 Report Posted January 14, 2009 A piece of paper in your pocket, or a diploma will not make a good tradesman or builder. Building code does not guarantee a good house. They are only minimums. What is missing in all the complaint stories is a lack of quality, sense of ownership/pride, and ethics. I have known very demanding inspectors, and I have known 'pocket men'. I have known many great quality tradesmen. No builder I have worked for likes them. Many are now retired or refuse to do subdivision work. There are also many hacks out there. I left new home construction because I'm not good at talking out both sides of my mouth. I did not like how we were building houses. I did not like the way the builders treated their customers. It violated my ethics. Holmes does provide some good insight into some of the problems of home ownership, but its all about the cameras.
Tinman Posted January 15, 2009 Report Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) As a tradesman, i appreciate what he is trying to do to the building industry. I have worked in the new construction field, banging tin and putting in furnaces, in saying that. I would never buy a new home from certain builders. The way things are built to get them up in a hurry is shameful.That is one of the reasons i left, couldn't stand lowering my standards to meet theres! And theyare a huge company!! I recently went back to working in the re and re of old furnaces and find its 50/50 of the people who want to look over your shoulder while your working. I had one customer who ended with some stitches after watching me work. I was doing some gas piping on a water tank, i was bent over, the wrench slipped and the back of my head, made contact with his chin, i guarantee that he will never do that again! Edited January 15, 2009 by Tinman
Radnine Posted January 15, 2009 Report Posted January 15, 2009 A piece of paper in your pocket, or a diploma will not make a good tradesman or builder. Maybe not. But what they do make is an indicator that someone cared enough to get the piece of paper or the diploma. In other words they did what it took to do the job right and get the credentials. Our tech wing at school is filled with kids that think that they will work a trade so that means they don't have to apply themselves anywhere else (like English, science, or math). Meanwhile the best kids in tech class are the kids who hand in a great project whether it is a book case or a DNA model for science class. They care enough to take pride in what they do and do a good job (and learn). You want to find tomorrows best tradesmen, look in the academic wing. Jim
Abraxus Posted January 15, 2009 Report Posted January 15, 2009 I do apologize to any tradesman by saying "Most" as I am a former tradesman myself. I was a framer and a water proofing and restoration guy for about 14 years! My issue is with how low the level of acceptability has sank when it comes to quality workmanship! Don't you guys remember our fathers and uncles who use to work in the trades? They use to build things as if they would be the ones to live in it themselves! That sense of pride in what you do has somehow left the building industry. Perhaps it has to do with costs, but I still think a trained professional should know how to use three tools which are very basic but were clearly absent in the building of my condo! A Level, a plum bob and a framing square! Even the tradesmen on this site would agree that in recent years they must have seen some serious horror shows in what people call a finished product. Its unacceptable and my point was and is, I am really happy that someone is out there trying to expose this type of builder! Once again, I apologize for the vague term I used when saying "Most", it was not intended as a slight against anyone who does take pride in their work, but more for the general building developers who encourage this type of work ethic. Unlike the homes our fathers and Uncles built many moons ago, a good portion of the homes being built today, will never stand the same test of time. Ab
Dano Posted January 15, 2009 Report Posted January 15, 2009 may have been said but... I like the way he over looks the clients pocket book. Jobs do go by what people can afford and or DON'T care about. If it looks good do it. The client is always right. Amen to that brother!
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