Buy out

[SHAD]

I agree with ya that unions suck. Have never worked as a full time employee in a union environment and never will. Why should some lazy sack get a good I apply for just because they apply but not as qualified but have more years experience. Best man for the job should get a position.

 

As for the bail out. No, I do not think they should be bailed out. However, if they don't get bailed out, the ripple effect will be devastating. If the gov't does give them 400 million or whatever the amount is, it should only be conditional on a guaranteed reimbursement plan over x amount of years or don't bother. If the big three are going to be back to profit in the next 10 years then a revamp of core values and their business models is needed.

 

Tough times ahead with the recession we are facing, will be interesting to see how the gov't responds.

[nofish4me]

Union/ Non-Union

Lazy A$$ or not, if there is no work, you are on the street. Just look at the auto sector.

[bow slayer]

great idea lets let the big three go down and take thousands of jobs in Ontario with them. It won't be just the big three workers that will be out of a job. All the parts plants,suppliers truckers and so on. One in 7 jobs in Ontario is in the auto sector. No natter who you are what you do for a living if it disappears you will feel it. The revenue the government gets back from income tax,corporate tax,and sales tax from these jobs out weighs any buy out money. Sorry to say Ontario needs a healthy auto sector to have a sound economy.Thats is why there will be a buy out because smart people know the importance of this industry. And no I am not a auto worker ,I work in the health care field.

[misfish]

Sorry to say Ontario needs a healthy auto sector to have a sound economy.Thats is why there will be a buy out because smart people know the importance of this industry.

 

 

I agree,but at what price.????

 

Lets see what Honda and Toyota bring in th next 5-10 years.

 

The union,has tried ,and failed,trying to get in there.

Maybe the EMPLOYER has learned from the EMPLOYEE.

[cram]

great idea lets let the big three go down and take thousands of jobs in Ontario with them. It won't be just the big three workers that will be out of a job. All the parts plants,suppliers truckers and so on. One in 7 jobs in Ontario is in the auto sector. No natter who you are what you do for a living if it disappears you will feel it. The revenue the government gets back from income tax,corporate tax,and sales tax from these jobs out weighs any buy out money. Sorry to say Ontario needs a healthy auto sector to have a sound economy.Thats is why there will be a buy out because smart people know the importance of this industry. And no I am not a auto worker ,I work in the health care field.

 

Here's the problem....no matter what Ontario does, the big 3 are going to fall. At least one of them will. We'd be better served to get Toyota/Honda/whoever here than to continue feeding an appendage of an otherwise dieing animal.

 

Not sure if you guys realize it but general motors is worth less on the stock market than Mattel (maker of Hot Wheels). The company is dead in the water. We could give them ALL of Ontario's money and they're still going down.

[tschirk]

Both the unions & the big 3 made their mess. Bailout won't fix it. They need to crash & burn otherwise they can't learn from their mistakes. We live in a democratic society funded by capitalism,,its not perfect but it has given us some the best standards of living in the world.

1) we need to stop living beyond our means

2) & develop value that cannot be off-shored - e.g post secondary education in engineering, law, medicine, etc...

 

If you want to buy product at competitive prices then you can't stop globalization. Manufacturing will die in Canada. Services and intellectually skilled jobs will flourish

 

We are in for a world of hurt...and we caused it. We better start being accountable. If you are still young enough, get back to school, even night school. Learn a skill that is marketable in our new economy. Take responsibility for your own fiscal world & live with your means, if you want something then save for it. If you don't understand the financial markets then don't trust your savings to someone else. Invest in something you do understand e.g. real-estate, bait&tackle shop

Sorry for the rant but there are too many people trying to pass the blame on this.

I'm just as guilty and this is the beginning of my wake-up call...

[waterwolf]

unions are a legal prostitution racket with your dues payment going to your pimp!! did the comstruction gig for 2 years . but what's worse is the stories i here from a buddy who works at an assembly plant. " HE'S HAMMERED " get him in a cab ,, boss says to a line worker. this guy is putting together cars your families are in & he gets sent home with pay for being drunk . "SEE YOU TOMORROW SO&SO" makes me ill the protection for this kind of behaviour . $ 35 an hour should buy a better employee . just me . earn your keep !! not a big fan of the union. or maybe i'm just jealous?

Edited November 15, 2008 by Spiel

[waterwolf]

sorry guys tender topic ,, buy- out , be gone!!

Edited November 14, 2008 by waterwolf

[holdfast]

great idea lets let the big three go down and take thousands of jobs in Ontario with them. It won't be just the big three workers that will be out of a job. All the parts plants,suppliers truckers and so on. One in 7 jobs in Ontario is in the auto sector. No natter who you are what you do for a living if it disappears you will feel it. The revenue the government gets back from income tax,corporate tax,and sales tax from these jobs out weighs any buy out money. Sorry to say Ontario needs a healthy auto sector to have a sound economy.Thats is why there will be a buy out because smart people know the importance of this industry. And no I am not a auto worker ,I work in the health care field.

 

It don't matter if they crash and burn. Some Fat Cats will just take the money and start all over again. Greed does not stop. However here what we should see. The big three should do a total revamp. Get rid of 80 percent of their products and rebuild the other 20 percent with the aim of quality. Revamp all their dealers and start serving their customers as customers and not low life suckers. Give their workers a choice of company incentives or a union. Nothing like being loyal to the company instead of the Union. Again give the auto industry our money, who's next in line, Circuit City maybe, there's a good one, the Banks. Of note, do you really think I give a crap about an auto company that tells Americans not to sell to Canadians when our Dollar was Par. I don't forget when our own robs us.

[charlied]

well i agree with unions being greedy for more wages.....i was a latest victim here in Niagara when it was coming up on negotiations and on my 89th day the company terminated my contract for the second time this year. I have seen first hand how unions protect the insainly lazy worker. It all came down to numbers and the unions were getting greedy and the company didn't want anything to do with that, and didn't want another negotiating contract. But oh well, out on my ASS and hit the grind again.....can't really do anything about it!

[sirfish]

great idea lets let the big three go down and take thousands of jobs in Ontario with them. It won't be just the big three workers that will be out of a job. All the parts plants,suppliers truckers and so on. One in 7 jobs in Ontario is in the auto sector. No natter who you are what you do for a living if it disappears you will feel it. The revenue the government gets back from income tax,corporate tax,and sales tax from these jobs out weighs any buy out money. Sorry to say Ontario needs a healthy auto sector to have a sound economy.Thats is why there will be a buy out because smart people know the importance of this industry. And no I am not a auto worker ,I work in the health care field.

 

 

Finally someone with some insight as to what will happen if any of the "big 3" fail. Most of you have no idea the catastrophic fallout if this happens. As it stands right now the job ratio is 1 to 8 . That s right. For every 1 job lost in the auto sector it means 8 others directly or indirectly will be downsized to the EI line. When this happens I don't want to hear you all say why didn't the government step in as you waddle down to the EI office.

 

If the collapse in fact happens it will imperil the foriegn imports as well . By this I mean that if the big three go then all the outside small part supliers will be closing thier doors as well and alot of them supply foreign auto makers also. So where will they get their parts??? The big 3 are their bread and butter, the foreign crap is a minute part of it. So there will be an imminent failure there as well . Then there will be some one to to emerge to supply parts at a higher cost cause it got them by the balls. What that translates into is a higher cost on a foreign car. Hmmm ......that leads us to higher auto prices again. we have come around once again.

Fact: 1% of all profits from the sale of a Toyota stays in canada . How many jobs does this translate into??

Fact: in Korea 99% of vehicles sold are produced there. The other 1% are the sum of all other auto makers.

Fact: Korea exports more vehicles to North America than are sold there in a year.

Fact: Toyota pays it workers in North America the same as the big 3 and they are not unionized.

Fact: 6% of the cost of a "big3" vehicle is labour. 6% !!!!!!

Fact: without unions ,whats to stop all manufacturing from going offshore?

I could go on.

You can all bash the union all you want but without them many of you would not live the life you live today. They have set guidline standards . Without them companies would be paying slave wages. There would be no safety standards. YOU would have no rights as a worker. There are numerous police and fire men on this board Lets hear what they think about unions....Lew, Can. Copper ??

 

If you haven't figured it out yet I work for one of the "big3".

 

There seems to be an age old "misconception"out there about auto workers. About how they are fat,lazy,overpaid,card playing,paper reading,cigarette smoking, coffee drinkers. This in part would have been true...10yrs ago.

 

Today with lean manufacturing taking over ,you punch in and go to your job , you hear a bell,you go on the line.Next bell you get a 10min break. Next bell you get a 23min lunch.Next bell you get a 10min.break. Next bell you go home. Now if my shift started at 6:30 am and finished at 2:30 pm that gives me a total of ...43 min out of an 8hr day to take a piss or two and have a lunch. Yup, we are definately overpaid and underworked. Give me a break. I could pick 20 people off this board and take them to work with me and put them on the line . 10 of you wouldn't last the week!!! . The other 10 that stay will be screaming for thier union rep every day.

 

So before you all go off on unions. Take a look around. If the government doesn't step in with a plan..an estimated 1 in 10 families will feel the fallout....You could be the "1"

 

remember, being this is a public forum we all have our opinion. nonone is right or wrong. lets keep it real.

[holdfast]

Finally someone with some insight as to what will happen if any of the "big 3" fail. Most of you have no idea the catastrophic fallout if this happens. As it stands right now the job ratio is 1 to 8 . That s right. For every 1 job lost in the auto sector it means 8 others directly or indirectly will be downsized to the EI line. When this happens I don't want to hear you all say why didn't the government step in as you waddle down to the EI office.

 

If the collapse in fact happens it will imperil the foreign imports as well . By this I mean that if the big three go then all the outside small part supliers will be closing thier doors as well and alot of them supply foreign auto makers also. So where will they get their parts??? The big 3 are their bread and butter, the foreign crap is a minute part of it. So there will be an imminent failure there as well . Then there will be some one to to emerge to supply parts at a higher cost cause it got them by the balls. What that translates into is a higher cost on a foreign car. Hmmm ......that leads us to higher auto prices again. we have come around once again.

Fact: 1% of all profits from the sale of a Toyota stays in Canada . How many jobs does this translate into??

Fact: in Korea 99% of vehicles sold are produced there. The other 1% are the sum of all other auto makers.

Fact: Korea exports more vehicles to North America than are sold there in a year.

Fact: Toyota pays it workers in North America the same as the big 3 and they are not unionized.

Fact: 6% of the cost of a "big3" vehicle is labour. 6% !!!!!!

Fact: without unions ,whats to stop all manufacturing from going offshore?

I could go on.

You can all bash the union all you want but without them many of you would not live the life you live today. They have set guidline standards . Without them companies would be paying slave wages. There would be no safety standards. YOU would have no rights as a worker. There are numerous police and fire men on this board Lets hear what they think about unions....Lew, Can. Copper ??

 

If you haven't figured it out yet I work for one of the "big3".

 

There seems to be an age old "misconception"out there about auto workers. About how they are fat,lazy,overpaid,card playing,paper reading,cigarette smoking, coffee drinkers. This in part would have been true...10yrs ago.

 

Today with lean manufacturing taking over ,you punch in and go to your job , you hear a bell,you go on the line.Next bell you get a 10min break. Next bell you get a 23min lunch.Next bell you get a 10min.break. Next bell you go home. Now if my shift started at 6:30 am and finished at 2:30 pm that gives me a total of ...43 min out of an 8hr day to take a piss or two and have a lunch. Yup, we are definately overpaid and underworked. Give me a break. I could pick 20 people off this board and take them to work with me and put them on the line . 10 of you wouldn't last the week!!! . The other 10 that stay will be screaming for thier union rep every day.

 

So before you all go off on unions. Take a look around. If the government doesn't step in with a plan..an estimated 1 in 10 families will feel the fallout....You could be the "1"

 

remember, being this is a public forum we all have our opinion. nonone is right or wrong. lets keep it real.

 

Instead lets temporarily Bail them out so they can carry on with their traditional Mismanagement. Kind of reminds me of Air Canada. Just Maybe, Just maybe, they should Re-build or finally die.

 

Fact- Auto Workers make way too much money

Fact- Without Jap vehicles, the Big three would have 90 Day warranties

Fact- Domestic Dealers have ripped off customers for years

Fact- Domestic Industry builds cars to break down obviously to sell parts.

Fact. I would take my present Toyota, former Nissan, even my Hyundai Pony years ago against any domestic vehicle at the same price range

Fact- Its about time that our country isn't totally reliant on the auto Industry to keep us afloat. Because its going to always have problems

 

And Yea I would go nuts pushing a button, but wow the pay is great. Whats your Union doing for you when you loose your Job. Betcha you go to the government for some kind of help while your Union Fat Cat doesnt worry about his job.

Edited November 14, 2008 by holdfast

[snoil]

The thing i don't get is Ford ceo Alan Mulally made $22 million last year!!!! Yet during the same period Ford reported a loss of 2.7 BILLION!!!! But yet they need a bailout??? Cut the fat at the top.

By the way i'm in a union job.

[mistyriver1]

To bad theres no big three workers here, with thier "HONEST" opinions on this.

 

Brian, I worked for GM for 20 years, does that qualify me to give an opinion ?

 

Firstly on worked on the finance side where there was no union, so please don't start bashing me about the union stuff as you did a couple of years ago. As of the end of September, I received a severance package and am now unemployed. Do I blame the unions ...NO. The biggest thing that started this decline was the sub prime mortgage business in the US. Too many people were approved for homes they could not afford and now these homes have been foreclosed and are being sold for bargain basement prices. MANY companies and banks were guilty of this and are now paying the price. Did the big three cause gas prices to skyrocket this summer ? NO, This led to a quick shift in consumer demand away from trucks and sport utility vehices, something that the big three made their bread and butter on. Let's not forget the legacy costs these three companies have....I'll tell you what, in 20 years when folks start retiring from Honda, Toyota, they are gonna have these costs too, something they don't have right now.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are alot of things that are wrong and need to be addressed with GM and the big three. Maybe with some government intervention this will wake them up. In all my years there, I always believed GM was a very reactive company and not proactive. However, to sit hear and say let em go down, is absolutely ridiculous. There are 250,000 people employed by GM in the US alone and millions of people working for the suppliers to GM. You think things are bad now, if they don't at least try to help them through this, you ain't seen nothing yet.

How about the dealer network ? Do you think that letting Georgian or Paul Sadlon go out of business would be a good idea. Both are pretty active in the Barrie community from what I see. How about Edmonds ?

 

Sirfish, I commend you on your post.

[BITEME]

Okay

I cant hold back i tried but cant.

I work and get paid for what I know I stand on my own 2 feet and i am not covered by a collective blanket which makes me the same as everyone else.

I ve been there and left because i could'nt handle the whining from the canine fornicators. dont get me wrong has some good points but not for me .

Here is what i think the government is at fault for alot ,allowing so much foriegn crap on shore it should be even in/out no exceptions.

housing as far as im concerned is out of control

I really dont care if my house gets a profit as long as i get back what went into it im happy.

I will never not be able to get by unless you cripple me

The 3 emigos have had alot of years to adjust you cant tell me they didnt see the writing on the wall along time ago but they still make mustangs challengers and cameros what the heck. i know it will effect alot of people but natural selection dictates the week will die (one of the big 3 maybe all)

Ive got alot of poop rolling around in my head as to how and why and what.

And if I can I try never to buy anything foreign(I do own a toyota and soley for the reason that it is better then anything produced on our shores I make no appologies for that)

 

All i can say is starp in stay low and hang on

 

JM2cents of babling

Peter

[OhioFisherman]

I was a Union worker all my adult life, different industry, Trucking though.

 

The auto companies (Exec`s) lobbied for years to block increases in the mileage standards it wasn`t in their interest to produce smaller cars with better gas mileage. Make 6000 per copy selling a SUV or 500 selling a caviler?

 

They took money they could have used to upgrade their plants and built new plants overseas. What is going to work better a 60 year old plant or a new one?

 

The executives had no problem raising the own pay and perks while all of this was going on, instant millionaires and the appointed their buddies who would back them to the boards.

 

Congress here in the states sat back and did nothing, no stronger consumer protection laws to protect the buyer from faulty or poorly designed cars. No stopping the push for bigger fuel hogs, even after the fuel shortage problems of the last 30+ years.

 

1 in 10 jobs here is estimated to be auto industry related, think the economy is bad now? Allow those plants to close! Allow those people not to have an income to keep the economy running.

 

Unions to blame? I don`t see it that way, greed. The execs want to raise their pay, American workers are among the most productive in the world, slave labor, breaking unions to cover their mistake allows them to keep raking in the cash.

 

Granted the foreign auto makers here in the states pay a decent wage, but who set the standard? will it continue when or if US auto makers are gone?

 

Is there a reason an Auto company exec now makes 30 times what they used to? When their employee`s pay has only gone up 4 times in the same period? Sure can`t be because they know what they are doing. 4.6 million dollar yearly retirement for a failed exec?

 

A union is the voice of the people, with out them all the politicians hear is the employers lobbyists. Certainly not down with all of some unions moves, but just as certainly not down with the moves of employers and politicians!

 

How do you call free trade fair? A bribe to a politician in China, Mexico, India allows you do what you want, pay what you want? Why do you think industry keeps pushing for more immigration? Flood the market with lower paid foreign workers! It drives down every ones wages!

 

People have stopped buying Detroit iron, more the exec`s, politicians fault than the auto workers. Still haven`t seen a car I would pay 20 grand for, and never owned a foreign car. 100 years or so of making cars in America and the can`t get an intake manifold or head gasket right? Not the auto workers fault, you do what the tell you to do.

 

The Chevy Volt save GM? not at 40 grand a pop, nobody will have jobs to buy them. Would you like fries with that?

[DT10Sam]

These are all great points everyone is making and I certainly look forward to the many posts on this thread. Thanks guys.

 

Regards,

Sam

[Headhunter]

Here's my problem with the bail outs... how can you justify this scenario?

A workin guy is making say $15/hr, has a job, works hard every day. Now, the government wants his tax dollars to bail out a bunch of folks who are used to making $75.00/hr, because they got greedy and made many mistakes?

Looking a few years down the road, this working guy gets a letter saying they are closing the mills, he's gonna be out of work. Who contributed to this decision? The dude who got the bail out dough!!!!! Talk about a kick in the nuts with a frozen mukaluk!

HH

[eye-tracker]

I agree,but at what price.????

 

Lets see what Honda and Toyota bring in th next 5-10 years.

 

I try not to comment on this stuff as I am a business man and a corporate executive,

 

Honda and Toyota announced today they also want a Provincial and Federal bailout...so much for only the BIG 3

 

Look this is going to be the hardest times many North Americans have ever seen as many have paid into corporate pensions, these will also disappear when the companies go under. I think if the government offers any bailout to any company the Officers (CEO, COO, CFO, CTO etc.) of the company should be fired, made to pay back all bonuses and be replaced with regular waged government workers to manage the company and our tax payers bailout money.

 

This has all happen by greed and thanks to North American Corporation laws that allow company executives to get rich off the markets and share holders - all at the expense of employees.

 

Lets hope corporations can keep going, we just need some new laws to prevent this from happening in the future and the first place to start is publicly traded companies and new corporate laws.

 

-sheldon

[bigfish1965]

Since the big 3 do not have the same benefit costs here as the US we may see more jobs coming this way. Retirees cost them less here because of OHIP and seniors drug plans. It is the legacy costs which are crippling the auto makers.

Supply and demand as well as product will decide if their vehicles sell.

[dp3200]

I think the death of the big 3 will be fantastic for our progress.

 

I went to university, did a BA and an MBA, and graduated making barely more than a line worker. When I finished highschool, lots of my friends talked about university like it was for suckers.... why would they go, when their dad/uncle/mom/whatever can get them in at GM making 75K and having no student loan? Unions are a disincentive for people to better themselves. They protect people who otherwise have no skills that would make them competitive.

 

I am not speaking out against the middle class. I am part of it. I come from a GM neighborhood. But seriously - no skills, no education, nothing. And they are in the top 1% of earners in the world? Why should an 'average' worker be better off than 99% of the world's population? Who in their right mind actually thinks it's sustainable?

 

I'm not even going to start on the management... the garbage car - ridiculous union combination is just deadly in this case.

 

At the end of the day for our economy to survive, let alone thrive, we need to move on from 'average' industries. Manufacturing jobs are not something that the leading economies of tomorrow will be relying on.

[Radnine]

Both the unions & the big 3 made their mess. Bailout won't fix it. They need to crash & burn otherwise they can't learn from their mistakes. We live in a democratic society funded by capitalism,,its not perfect but it has given us some the best standards of living in the world.

1) we need to stop living beyond our means

2) & develop value that cannot be off-shored - e.g post secondary education in engineering, law, medicine, etc...

 

If you want to buy product at competitive prices then you can't stop globalization. Manufacturing will die in Canada. Services and intellectually skilled jobs will flourish

 

We are in for a world of hurt...and we caused it. We better start being accountable. If you are still young enough, get back to school, even night school. Learn a skill that is marketable in our new economy. Take responsibility for your own fiscal world & live with your means, if you want something then save for it. If you don't understand the financial markets then don't trust your savings to someone else. Invest in something you do understand e.g. real-estate, bait&tackle shop

Sorry for the rant but there are too many people trying to pass the blame on this.

I'm just as guilty and this is the beginning of my wake-up call...

Well said, Ted

[cram]

One of the posters referenced all the part shops that depend on the auto industry, and how most of the parts are american cars and only a minute part for foreign cars.......and how the american car companies going down would hurt the parts business -- ding ding ding...we have a winner!!!!!!)

 

Anyway, 1 in 7 jobs in Ontario dependent on the auto industry -- that's scary. Really scary. Yikes.

 

I don't know what the solution is. Regardless of unions, the companies are sinking.

 

The demand for their cars are seriously dropping. I assume part of this is due to gas prices, another part due to durability (yes, they ARE made to break down), and a whole bunch of other things we aren't discussing on this board.

 

Yere is a massive healthcare cost associated with all the US autoworker retirees. That liability alone is sinking the companies. Apparently it costs almost 3k per car sold to pay for that alone. If the US adopted universal healthcare, that's a good start.

 

I don't know that the unions have anything to do with their competitiveness (esp if toyota/honda are payign teh same wages), but i do know its sickening to hear about people who can show up drunk for work and not get reprimanded (or fired). The thing i don't like about unions is how they lift up the weak and hold down the strong. If you're a good hardworking guy who is always held in the same bucket as the drunk who pushes the rules and relies on the union blanket.....that must suck.

[Uncle Buck]

Bail the little guys out...

 

its been enough off bailing out the big guys... Automakers/steel plants/etc...

 

it's those companies that knowingly screw the little shops...

 

shut em down!!! give them a taste of their own medicine

 

I'm Anti-Union also!!

[Pondo]

You can all bash the union all you want but without them many of you would not live the life you live today. They have set guidline standards . Without them companies would be paying slave wages. There would be no safety standards. YOU would have no rights as a worker.

 

What about WSIB? Or the Canadian Labour Code? Unions may certainly have contributed to their progress but they are now law. I think the day has come and gone for unions in this country.