Buy out

[OhioFisherman]

Castaway, over time pay, some sacrifices involved, you could work 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, pull double shifts. Nothing like feeding the machine for twice as long? You got to give up free time activities to secure your future.

 

Auto companies had a different retirement plan than the Teamster`s both had 30 and out plans. Auto company workers took pay increases, and larger ones than the Teamster workers asked for. Our pension plans were also different, theirs run by the companies, ours run by our union.

 

Auto workers got 3000 a month, but when they reached an age that social security kicked in the companies reduced their pension by the amount they received from social security.

 

The Teamster workers paid in more overall and ours doesn`t reduce when we receive social security. Their were some changes made to ours shortly after I retired, but because I was already retired they don`t affect me.

 

There were years when I made 60+k a year, didn`t get to do much else, planning for retirement.

 

We also had an option to have pay deducted and put into a 401k, ask me why I am glad I didn`t. Paid off the house and debt instead. Between payroll deductions for social security, and money paid by the company instead of wages into the Teamsters retirement program it was around 350 bucks a week. Companies match of social security included.

 

Most people here complain about our social security program and have no real understanding of how it works. Take a look at our stock market and the 401k plans, if you were planning on retiring from one of them any time soon you probably don`t feel to secure.

[John]

I agree with Musky Man. I was so turned off by my last GM built in 1987, I never bought another. I am on my 5th Mazda, of which the last two were built in Detroit, and never had a single complaint about any of them. Why can North American auto workers build good vehicles for Japanese owners, but not to the same standard for North American owners?

 

It's called training, resulting in pride in what you do!

[John]

No offense, but no matter how fast the employees ram the parts into the vehicles, it doesn't fix cheap/crappy parts.

 

I don't think the workers are to blame for this, nor the unions. It's corporate execs making horrible decisions, looking for the cheapest way to make a buck.

 

The company I work for is doing the same thing. Clowns from head office who have never seen meat outside of a restaraunt are sending us instructions on how to do our job. Their way doesn't work in the real world, but they can't see that. Mostly because they've never entered the real world outside of their limo!

 

Sorry Rich, but you are wrong on this one. The quality of parts going into vehicles built by the big three has never been higher. Unfortunately it's getting from the component parts and modules to the finished automobile that is the problem!

Edited November 15, 2008 by John

[BUSTER]

Is this the type employee you would want working for you if you owned a company?... I think not! They aren't going to give 100%... they're just going to do what they have to to get by... but why should they show extra effort? Their pay will stay the same regardless, because a union scale says so!

 

 

 

i worked for union gas for several yr's and i cant agree more

[misfish]

I would like to thank all that have commented. All good points from both sides.

 

I hate to see anyone out of work,but the times they are a changing so must the manufacturing way.

 

Thanks to the mods for letting this ride.

[Bernie]

I will defend Rich on this part of the debate. I am the guy on the opposite end of building cars. I repair them. The quality of domestics has improved, but it may be too late. In all fairness to the guys on the line I don't believe in the past couple decades you can blame them for the quality. Engineering is/was to blame for most of it. Designed only to last so long as cheap as possible.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Bernie

[misfish]

Designed only to last so long as cheap as possible.

 

Your wrong. .

[Bernie]

In the late 80's I attended a service managers meeting with the auto company I was working for. I was speaking to an engineer about some designs. I asked what their plans were to repair a common problem with a couple of vehicles. He looked me straight in the eye and said with a smirk "what problem?"

[misfish]

"what problem?"

 

 

What was the problem?????

[misfish]

Let me add to the wrong,so I dont get smashed.

 

We are asked to make parts that will last 10 years plus. So we do a salt brine heat test.Also do an outside test with the same. We have had parts now, outside for the past 10 years and they are as strong as they were when first made. I see them everyday, as they are where I go for my stress relief smoke.LOL

Sure they are not being used,but I would say what we do is, a good telling story of what our quality is all about.

Edited November 16, 2008 by misfish

[Rich]

You are joking right?????????????????????

It,s called QUALITY CONTROL.

If yer looking to start up someth,n Rich,not going to happen.

 

I have been in 3 union plants and 3 non. I see the dif.It opens yer eyes.WIDE.

 

Start up something how? I wrote my opinion. I understand your point to a degree. But to blame the workers.. well by that logic we'd be blaming you? I don't get it.

 

We are a unionized company and trust me, nobody gets to slack off. The management is ridin' our butts to move, move, move non stop. Then again, our management is non-unionized which means head office is riding their butts even harder.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Rich

[Bernie]

Like I said . It was in the past and things have improved. But not entirely. Why am I replacing brake lines on GM vehicles that are 2004 models. Why are suspension components becoming bad on Chryco and why did the trans drop out of my sons 2005 F150. Why did the Camry I had last close to 400,000 km with no major repairs. Not bashing anyone here. Just calling it as it is.

 

PS. By the way. Do you remember the transmissions in Aerostars and Bronco II"s from 1986 to 1990? They were a bit of a problem. But not according to some.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Bernie

[misfish]

Start up something how

 

Rich,I do believe our pm solved that.

 

Do you remember the transmissions in Aerostars

 

Owned one.No probs.Many a trips to Kanata for soccer and hockey with the boys.5 straight years. Must of been made on a wednesday.LOL

[urbanangler1990]

reading all these responses seem like they are coming from people with a right wing state of mind, or maybe just on this issue? With Unions I think its not about compettition but more co-operation with one another, sure when the economy was good there were no complaints, but noww people are looking bad upon unions, we all can try to do things individually or come together as a union, many voices is stronger then just one...

Edited November 16, 2008 by urbanangler

[danc]

Interesting thread. I'd put together a better reply, but I just finished 13 hours of back breaking work in bitter cold temps, and I'm tired. Fortunately for me, my union job paid me double time today, and another big chunk of change into my two pension plans. By the way, the job I did today was for the Ontario government.

[OhioFisherman]

Just different life experiences with union and non-union membership Brian.

 

If you take a look at the links, most right to work states here are former slave states, some western states. Kind of a mirror image of the states McCain won in the presidential election.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work

 

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/

 

We can disagree and still remain civil!

[Greencoachdog]

Fortunately for me, my union job paid me double time today, and another big chunk of change into my two pension plans.

 

... so you're employed by a union and not a company?

[Cookslav]

The problem with your doctor shortage is simple, US, as in USA, and the logic similar. Why stay in a country when you can cross a near by border and make more. Your government doesn`t prevent it, ours certainly won`t.

 

Sure...and the same could be said for the Auto sector.

Why pay a Union employee twice what I could pay a non union employee especially when the the facts seem to point to better production effeciency is found in non unionized employment?

I suppose the doctors will continue to go to the States untill we pay them more, and the big three will continue to become more and more obsolite until they bust the unions and level their labor expenses, or simply go the way of the dinosaur.

 

If you studied anything about the auto companies history they had trouble keeping help, a boring job and a turnover rate approaching 50%

Sure but...

So did the Trades...as Brian said "the time they are a changing", and so must we.

 

not everyone wants to run a company, be a doctor or a lawyer, attend college for 4 to 8 years, does that make them stupid?

 

Of course not...

But of course settling into a line level postion does dictate what you get fiscaly, and obviously limits you to whats available.

Those who know that, and are content with that, are well off and quite smart...heck maybe even smarter then most.

If you can enjoy the simple things in life, and be happy with out pushing yourself further then need be to get there....ya I'd your a smart person, and better off then most.

But then there are those who don't realize the limitations, don't live with in their means, and are bitter about people who worked hard to get a bit further ahead, and Blame the high acheivers for their postion....ya there are certainly sharper knives in the drawer then those folks.

The problem is the union loves those guys...theres the vocal minority I spoke of in a nut shell

 

we all can try to do things individually or come together as a union, many voices is stronger then just one

True buts what the message...

I can think of a few exsamples many people got on board with regards to a unified voice that didn't go so well....Nazi Germany comes to mind....thats a stretch of course.

But really,

What ever happened to "team work"....Do you need a union for that?

 

Last time I tried to Help a guy clean up his station in a unionized establishment I got greived...appearently there is a lot of Individualism out there with in the unions as well.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Cookslav

[musky_man]

Misfish,

 

You seem to miss the point. The fact is Toyota and Honda are **better engineered vehicles** that are, in many instances, assembled in North Amermica.

 

I have an acquaintance who is an engineer for the Mercedez Plant in Alabama. He used to work for Toyota. If you ask him today, he'd admit that Mercedez is BEHIND Toyota in this regard ... they are getting closer, but they are not there yet.

 

If union workers assembled Toyota cars, I suspect that they would still be the quality vehicles that many of us have come to appreciate. Toyota engineers have to work in the assembly plant for 2 years before they get to be engineers ... there is a reason for that.

The difference is the engineering.

 

Cheers,

 

- M

[holdfast]

I listened to a Talk show on this Question. Should the Government Bail these guys out?

 

Here's what I learned, Most say no. But the Canadian Government Basically has their hands tied in that the States are putting in Moneys to Bail the Companies across the Border. We'd be stupid not to follow suit as you can see ,if I was the Government or Company Id take care of our own first. Detroit Vice Ontario. Secondly, Ford goes down the competition will taker up the slack. Unlike a Bank going down. Now this is unbelievable. A person with benifits is making shy of seventy dollars an hour. When he gets that pension, he will not have paid into it enough to, not warranting moneys coming from else where. The consenses would be, that the Government would give cash under these conditions. Fat Cats dont touch a cent of it. The Union and the worker takes a pay cut. The management has to covince the Government that the money is not going to incure more loses due to Mis-management. Makes sense but that wont happen. CEOs and the Union will look after themselves as usual first.

 

Most listeners figure they should just declare Bankruptcy and start over. This Bailout money is definitely protectism that has the overseas companies steaming. Its one thing that we continuously Bail out Air Canada and Bombardier, but at least they're Canadian.

Edited November 16, 2008 by holdfast

[misfish]

You seem to miss the point. The fact is Toyota and Honda are **better engineered vehicles** that are, in many instances, assembled in North Amermica.

 

I do not dought that at all.

 

Maybe you missed my point. Im not a very interlecuale (HELL CANT EVEN SPELL THAT WORD) guy when it comes to this typing stuff and saying my words. Sorry.

If they were to become unionized,then it will be the same as the big three.We want more money because they know they are number 1,then it becomes like the rest. 8 hr job and well I did my part. Thanks for my fat pay cheque.

The union does put a mind set, into the employee.

 

 

After reading this thread more then a few dozen times,I would say the people have spoken that the days of the union have over stayed thier welcome.

[Wild]

All I have to say about unions concerns Buzz, he knew when to jump ship!

 

GM Chrysler & bankruptcy? there is no choice it has to be done in order to survive longer than a year or until the welfare runs out.

[urbanangler1990]

True buts what the message...

I can think of a few exsamples many people got on board with regards to a unified voice that didn't go so well....Nazi Germany comes to mind....thats a stretch of course.

But really,

What ever happened to "team work"....Do you need a union for that?

 

Last time I tried to Help a guy clean up his station in a unionized establishment I got greived...appearently there is a lot of Individualism out there with in the unions as well.

 

Well, would people come together without benefits, or some kind of compensation? Thats why a union is there, you get the odd apple in every basket lol

[misfish]

Well, would people come together without benefits, or some kind of compensation? Thats why a union is there

 

We have full benifits and my company pays a 6% of our wage, to RRSP in 6 month installs.As for coming together. You should see our company functions. Pretty much were all there....................... FAMILY

[OhioFisherman]

Sure...and the same could be said for the Auto sector.

Why pay a Union employee twice what I could pay a non union employee especially when the the facts seem to point to better production effeciency is found in non unionized employment?

I suppose the doctors will continue to go to the States untill we pay them more, and the big three will continue to become more and more obsolite until they bust the unions and level their labor expenses, or simply go the way of the dinosaur.

 

 

Sure but...

So did the Trades...as Brian said "the time they are a changing", and so must we.

Of course not...

But of course settling into a line level postion does dictate what you get fiscaly, and obviously limits you to whats available.

Those who know that, and are content with that, are well off and quite smart...heck maybe even smarter then most.

If you can enjoy the simple things in life, and be happy with out pushing yourself further then need be to get there....ya I'd your a smart person, and better off then most.

But then there are those who don't realize the limitations, don't live with in their means, and are bitter about people who worked hard to get a bit further ahead, and Blame the high acheivers for their postion....ya there are certainly sharper knives in the drawer then those folks.

The problem is the union loves those guys...theres the vocal minority I spoke of in a nut shell

True buts what the message...

I can think of a few exsamples many people got on board with regards to a unified voice that didn't go so well....Nazi Germany comes to mind....thats a stretch of course.

But really,

What ever happened to "team work"....Do you need a union for that?

 

Last time I tried to Help a guy clean up his station in a unionized establishment I got greived...appearently there is a lot of Individualism out there with in the unions as well.

 

LOL Cook, I was a UAW member for a short period of time (in a box factory). Most of the time a Teamster, I don`t disagree there were abuses, on both sides.

 

Nazi Germany is a stretch, people that didn`t follow the leader there were dead.

 

I do question some of the high achievers though, all at once they are worth 300 times their employeed pay instead of 30? For poor decisions?

 

The doctors pay is also sort of a different issue, very hard to tell if your getting your monies worth, for me there were questions. But in my opinion a better system up there.

 

The auto companies (American) in my opinion haven`t done a good job designing or building cars, no one to blame but themselves, but I have never owned a foreign car, and only two new ones. Not a priority for me.

 

The idea has been for each generation to have a better life than the last, we elect our politicians considering that, (allegedly?) They seem to be giving it away to other countries at our expense.

 

If managements pay can rise through the workers efforts, shouldn`t the workers? and for blame to be fixed on solely the workers?

 

Grieved? LOL the management and union agree on what jobs are deemed union jobs? Union workers are expected to follow the agreement? I know what you mean though. Tough call on that, I had some foremen working right along side me at times, others understood because of their past behavior they were in a management position. Don`t expect me to overlook things if you want to micro-manage me.

 

I passed on management positions, I thought some people were idiots, on both sides.