Buy out

[Cookslav]

Well, would people come together without benefits, or some kind of compensation?

Yes...yes they do in many many places all the time.

But if they don't like the fact their job does not compensate them to their expectations they usually go elsewere to a company that meets their needs union or not.

 

You don't need a union to incure teamwork, and you certainly don't need a union to run a fair place of employment these days.

Its actually pretty rare to see a union move in these days...

90% of places that are unionized have been so for longer then I've been around, and I think that speaks volumes to their place in todays business world.

There was a time they were invaluable...not so sure they have not run their course now though?

 

I do question some of the high achievers though, all at once they are worth 300 times their employeed pay instead of 30? For poor decisions?

Greed is rampant in all industry, I wouldn't peg the union as the only cause(never have), but don't forget how bound to "agreements & Union contracts" some of these Acheivers are when making desicions...

If I was told I had a 25% defiecit to recoup and I Couldn't touch the labor, the shifts, benefits or tweak the daily Operations Standards, thus had no way to increase labor effeicency what choices are left?

All that is really left to do is cheap out on product unless you can find a way to minimize overhead(which is usually fixed)

or you have to drive revenue through the roof somehow to exeed your targets(tough to do in this market)

My point in a nut shell,

Those poor decisions are not always poor.

Sometimes when your hands are tied all you can do is kick in the dark to try and hit somthing...anything

 

Blame is blame, and it begets blame I suppose...

The real question is how will it, or will it get fixed at all?

 

Really I just think the Business model for the big 3 is outdated and fundimentally screwed from the bottom up...

You simply cannot make a recovery with out drastic cuts, and drastic change, and the union won't let that happen so its only a matter of time until its busted, or folded....the writing is on the wall and only the workers can make that desicion when it comes around.

 

Grieved? LOL the management and union agree on what jobs are deemed union jobs? Union workers are expected to follow the agreement? I know what you mean though. Tough call on that, I had some foremen working right along side me at times, others understood because of their past behavior they were in a management position. Don`t expect me to overlook things if you want to micro-manage me.

 

I passed on management positions, I thought some people were idiots, on both sides.

 

Agreed.

There are always a few folks on each side that spur the others on....no doubt

In that instance I was the new hired gun at the time, and came in a week after the contracts had been settled

I had been there about a month.

Me thinks some people were trying to send a message LOL...

[Rattletrap2]

Wow, lots of reading here!

First off, I have worked for Unionized employers all of my adult life. I spent the first three working for an aircraft company that was CAW/UAW. It was a totally screwed up mess on all sides! The union and the company were to blame.

 

I don't think you can make blanket statements about all unions. The Trade Unions (construction trades)are a completely different thing than the unions in the manufacturing sector.

 

I also worked for a "Family" business that was also unionized for over 22 years. This company could be one of the most ruthless outfits out there! Office staff who were not unionized were extremely poorly treated. In this case, the union was important to set standards for the unionized workers. Although I was always treated well ( and worked very hard for this treatment), I can honestly say that I felt for sorry for a lot of people who were abused, and this was one of the reasons I gave it up.

 

I am now employed by the Union and am proud of this. I can tell you that no one is lazy, protected for the wrong reasons, or overpaid!

We all work long hours and give it everything we have! I think you will find this in most Trade Unions. I would think that DanC for example works damn hard for his money and deserves every penny of it. He is trained and highly skilled. Working conditions would make some people cringe! People in our industry who can't cut it, are unemployed!

 

Let's just be careful of using too wide of a brush when painting some of these pictures!

[urbanangler1990]

Yes...yes they do in many many places all the time.

But if they don't like the fact their job does not compensate them to their expectations they usually go elsewere to a company that meets their needs union or not.

 

You don't need a union to incure teamwork, and you certainly don't need a union to run a fair place of employment these days.

Its actually pretty rare to see a union move in these days...

90% of places that are unionized have been so for longer then I've been around, and I think that speaks volumes to their place in todays business world.

There was a time they were invaluable...not so sure they have not run their course now though?

 

I see your point, however in a capatilist society the big guys in the suits rake in all the rewards and benefits, while the little guys pick up the leftovers, private profit making is what this society is about, therefore people tend to dislike unions because of greed, unions are only here to better us all as one, and gve us opportunities where in other buisnesses would not give, the whole idea of a buisness in this society is to minimize the amount of money spent on paying the working people and maximize profits

[OhioFisherman]

Just my overall view that somewhere along the line the system fell apart and I am really not sure what is the cause. Things seemed a lot more comfortable in the 60`s and early 70`s with the cash we were making and the prices we were paying.

 

Even though there were more unions here at the time their seemed to be less grief, more strikes though. People just seem to get bent out of shape easily now. Maybe myself too? Glad work is over for me, the politics of the work place got old.

 

Did want to try something else though, a new challenge! Now walking is my challenge!

[Rich]

Well, would people come together without benefits, or some kind of compensation? Thats why a union is there, you get the odd apple in every basket lol

 

No but without a union, the company could easily "modify" or even remove completely your benefits and bonuses and you'd have no say in the matter.

[outllaw]

buyouts or bailouts. if the automotive sector fails, the country of canada will see a deep recession. the answers not to blame the unions, or workers. its executives that are greedy. why not blame management not joe with a mortage and 3 kids.. in 79-80 moneys were lent for re-structuring, and yes it was re-paid. thru that millions of families benefited thru gainfull employment.. theres much more to look at other then the auto industry. .. maybe working together to rise above would be better then frenzy feeding on people in need.

[holdfast]

buyouts or bailouts. if the automotive sector fails, the country of canada will see a deep recession. the answers not to blame the unions, or workers. its executives that are greedy. why not blame management not joe with a mortage and 3 kids.. in 79-80 moneys were lent for re-structuring, and yes it was re-paid. thru that millions of families benefited thru gainfull employment.. theres much more to look at other then the auto industry. .. maybe working together to rise above would be better then frenzy feeding on people in need.

 

Like I said earlier, where else do you make $70 an hour inside a nice building and you just press buttons. Compare that to an oil worker driving a pressure truck class 3a working outdoor Alberta, Saskatchewan winters 12 -15 hours a day, having 4 Safety courses including First Aid and dealing with pressure valves that can a cremate block of Buildings at 18-25 dollars an hour.

 

Oh by the way- Canada Post is doing their Typical strike thing just before Christmas as usual.

 

Two years ago CUPE Saskatchewan decided to walk out during three of the worst storms in Sask. Were talking about Emergency workers and snow clearance. You want to see how they threatened us if we voted Sask Party instead of the NDP. Sask Party won and put a bill in place no walk outs during time of Crises

[albany_guide]

Let's try to make some sense of the proposed bailout. The bottom line is that the big three are making cars that no one wants to buy. I'm going to use some simple numbers here for illustration sake.

Let's say the big three are producing 100,000 cars a year, but right now the demand is only for 50,000. As a result, the companies are bleeding cash to try to stay afloat. So, the idea is we will bail them out with additional funds so they can continue to produce 100,000 cars a year and no one will lose their job.

 

Question: At what point will people begin buying all these excess cars? There is no way out of it. Supply will continue to out-pace demand. Bail out or not, the big three will eventually fail.

[Cookslav]

however in a capatilist society the big guys in the suits rake in all the rewards and benefits

Sure I would agree but...

What I'm saying is you should go get yourself a suit if it doesn't sit well with you that they get the benefits.

Some if not most of the these "big suit guys" put the time & Energy to get to there....so why shouldn't they get the rewards?

With all due respect...

I'm an Exec now, not in the Auto sector of course, but in the Hospitality industry.

I worked as a dishwasher, cook, kitchen manager, Apprentice chef with a 4 year apprenticeship moved on and held the title of chef d'partie, sous chef, and Executive Chef, Earned my C.C.C, tinkered as a Food and beverage Manager, am continuing to earn my Master Chef Designation on the side and continued in Schoolastic learning to get My CFBE certification(Certified Food & Beverage Executive).

I came from a Family of 7 on a single income(Dad was a plumber)...we got by comfortably but I had no financial help.

I hussled my A$$ to get were I am today.

I make bad desicons too, but I make some pretty good ones as well....I'm human

Yes I earn 4 times what a line level employee does...absolutely

But I am responsible for his Supervisors, boss, their boss, and their Boss and so on and so on....

I make their expected Targets/plans for the year based on the Company thresholds, the market expectations, and I use my experience/education to set them up for success.

So really,

When the poop hits the Fan its my A$$...not the employee

So My combined education/experiece and hard work set me up for the job, but I'm paid for the responsibilty of leadership.

If I fail I get fired.

Thats why Execs get paid well.

Its not Always a greed thing, sometimes its well earned.

And for the record its not always proportional....you'd be surprised

I get paid less then many on the board I'm sure.

But I like my Career, and I'll keep pushing it further to earn more for my Kids, my wife, and myself.

I've never been comfy with the idea of sitting tight....Big Suit or not

Anyway,

My Employees have every opportunity I had to better themselves.

If they want to they can, but if they want to sit put then thats fine too...but for sure they have not earned the right to tell me I'm overpaid, or call me a Fat cat, big Suit, or what have you.

For the record I have a great Climate in my place of employment(non Unionized)

I'm just telliong you were I come from....

You keep what you earn, and we reap what we sow

 

One can also look at it this way.

A business owner who starts his own business gets to call the shots...its his investment

He can pay what he likes, if you don't like the enviroment....go elsewere

Don't forget Its always in the buisness owners, or Execs best interest to keep employees happy.

If he or she treats his employees like crap he'll lose them, and rampant turnover will kill his consitency, and in turn no one gets a good name based on hit and miss product.

 

If your content to stay were you are in a line level postion in a factory I think you should be pretty grateful for $30/hour and benefits cause as mentioned earlier.....there are about 3 guys lined up behind you who would take that job for $20/hour no questions asked.

If the place treats you good then stay, if not move along.

I suppose a union can help keep an employee happy...but in the instance of the big 3 its now come back around to bite the employees in the A$$.

It worked well for years in the eys of the employee, but its now about to out price your value to the company.

The big three will evaluate if continuing on in this model is sustainable, and decide to change....will the union allow it?

We'll see.

Thats all I'm saying

Edited November 17, 2008 by Cookslav

[urbanangler1990]

Cookslav, i enjoy having this discussion with you

[LeXXington]

Should be locked soon but here we go.

 

Say right away for 3 years!

Take 20% of all employee's pay. Top and bottom

No bonus or incentives.

cut unproductive lines, cut costs etc. Massive changes

 

Funny how the Union and Management are not doing this, and asking for more.

 

When the ship is sinking you do what you can too live.. with Sailors saying it an't my job and the captn saying I'll wait for help. Boat will sink and no one wins

 

Union contracts will make good fire starter as your hudling around a burning barrell.

 

 

My 2006 Dodge truck at 28k needed a complete brake job to stop squeeking.. I told the dealer so its just going to make loud squeeks right, yeap you still have 80% pads left they have just rusted ... Great I said I will drive it till I have 10% left and every person who complains about my squeek I will tell them never by a dodge.

 

Word of mouth!

[OhioFisherman]

Always nice to discuss issues that affect us and to be able to keep it civil.

 

How is bailing out (in our case, USA) Auto companies any different than bailing out New Orleans, Florida, the gulf coast area in general? We have repeatedly spent billions of tax dollars to help our people there and no end in sight.

 

Poor choices in places to live? and continuing to do so? Do we stop or impose regulations? On what and where they can build?

 

I haven`t agreed with any of the bail outs proposed, but glumly accepted they may be needed short term and a lot more changes should have been made to the terms.

 

The jobs numbers here keeps growing, how do you recover with out jobs? Wait years possibly for people to be retrained? For what jobs?

 

New figures I saw today says 30 percent of homeowners with mortgages will be under water by the end of next year. In my area, deemed conservative, suburban, rural, wealthier area they now have the foreclosure actions at the fairgrounds because of the numbers of them. Just drives down the value for every one involved.

 

This can`t get turned around with out jobs? LOL and better planning and leadership?

[holdfast]

But with this bailout, will we, the Tax payers get our money back. heard nothing about that. Seems like a freebee to the Fat Cats to pocket more money. Chapter 11 Bankrupcy and start all over. Weed out the incompetant Fat Cats. Less models, more Quality, cut pay in half and rid the Union. Lower vehical Prices, dont put all your apples into SUVs (Idiotic). If they need tax payer money we get it back with interest with a cap on CEOs. Is that Conservatism? Maybe its their hidden agenda eh. Really its HOLDanomics

Edited November 17, 2008 by holdfast

[misfish]

I finally had a good convo with my manager about this whole thing(he has seen it all) and even told him about my post. He decided to read it and said I was kinda on the right track along with others here. Even though we are staying up with the times,he did mention to me one things that really made me sit back and think.

 

What will happen to the 100,000 of people that get let go???????????????????????????

 

 

I had no answer then,but later came back and said to him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Can we keep going this way????????????

 

Im waiting for his answer.

Edited November 17, 2008 by misfish

[albany_guide]

At the end of the day it is still a supply and demand question. I still want someone to answer my simple question: If we give them taxpayer money to continue to produce more cars than we are buying, WHO WILL EVENTUALLY BUY ALL THESE CARS?

 

THAT is the question that needs to be answered. It is a simple question, but VERY important for the long-term sustainability of the industry.

It should be clear that a handout is not the answer. The big three will still fail!

Edited November 17, 2008 by albany_guide

[holdfast]

I am, and you next time you buy a car or part.

[BUSTER]

at the end of the day IF the big three closedown over 2.3 million jobs will be lost, that cost is huge compared to the tiny cost of the bailout in goverments eyes my 2 cents

[Rich]

It seems the simplest solution would be cut the amount of vehicles being produced and deal with the paycuts.

 

Now were this to happen - who would be more upset? The line workers who get a 5 dollar per hour paycut?

 

Or the execs who go from 5 million to 3 million per year?

 

Hmmmmm....

 

It's like - they've been at the top of the ladder raking in dough easily for so long that now that things aren't flowing in their direction, they're panicking. Drop employee wages.

 

There are TONS of people who will do their job for $15/hour! And probably work harder!

Edited November 18, 2008 by Rich

[BUSTER]

At the end of the day it is still a supply and demand question. I still want someone to answer my simple question: If we give them taxpayer money to continue to produce more cars than we are buying, WHO WILL EVENTUALLY BUY ALL THESE CARS?

 

THAT is the question that needs to be answered. It is a simple question, but VERY important for the long-term sustainability of the industry.

It should be clear that a handout is not the answer. The big three will still fail!

 

the handout would be for the companies to re-tool the factories and design vehicles that are appealing the the general public plus be enviromentally efficient with fuel and carbon print .

[misfish]

There are TONS of people who will do their job for $15/hour! And probably work harder!

 

Rich,now yer getting it. Just think,you could buy an F150 for 5 G,S instead of the 18 G,s thier asking for.

Happy happy we all would be.

[albany_guide]

the handout would be for the companies to re-tool the factories and design vehicles that are appealing the the general public plus be enviromentally efficient with fuel and carbon print .

 

...right! So other automobile companies saw the need to change years ago (think Toyota and Honda) while the big three continued pumping out gas guzzling pieces of crap. So because they lacked the foresight, we should now come to their rescue with taxpayer money?

 

Even if the money was being used to create newer plants that produce more fuel efficient cars, the demand is STILL not there to support the companies as they are. The big 3 build 17 million new cars a year in the US. Current demand calls for 10 million. That 7 million discrepancy is not solely because their cars are gas guzzlers. They are building TOO MANY CARS!!! Period!!!!!!!

 

Let's be real, any money given to the big three will be used to survive for a few more feeble months. They are bleeding BILLIONS a quarter. The big three as we know them are FINISHED! No amount of money can be handed out to make people in North America buy an additional 10 million cars annually. It's not going to happen!

[holdfast]

...right! So other automobile companies saw the need to change years ago (think Toyota and Honda) while the big three continued pumping out gas guzzling pieces of crap. So because they lacked the foresight, we should now come to their rescue with taxpayer money?

 

Even if the money was being used to create newer plants that produce more fuel efficient cars, the demand is STILL not there to support the companies as they are. The big 3 build 17 million new cars a year in the US. Current demand calls for 10 million. That 7 million discrepancy is not solely because their cars are gas guzzlers. They are building TOO MANY CARS!!! Period!!!!!!!

 

Let's be real, any money given to the big three will be used to survive for a few more feeble months. They are bleeding BILLIONS a quarter. The big three as we know them are FINISHED! No amount of money can be handed out to make people in North America buy an additional 10 million cars annually. It's not going to happen!

 

Only 16 Posts, but I got to disagree on only one of your statements, they wont die that fast because they will ask for more money first and thats so the Fat Cats can retire before the ship sinks and held accountable. Where is Buzz now, imagine all that money he got and all he could cry was. Plse stop the imports sniff, sniff sniff

[jediangler]

What difference does it make how many posts someone has. His opinion is as valid as anyone elses. Even more so because he's right. Take your high horse to the stable holdfast. You wonder why newbies say this forum is elitist with longtime members thinking they're better than newbies.

[sirfish]

Like I said earlier, where else do you make $70 an hour inside a nice building and you just press buttons. Compare that to an oil worker driving a pressure truck class 3a working outdoor Alberta, Saskatchewan winters 12 -15 hours a day, having 4 Safety courses including First Aid and dealing with pressure valves that can a cremate block of Buildings at 18-25 dollars an hour.

 

 

 

 

Holdfast, again,you among others,have no idea what goes on inside the automotive factory of today. We get less than half of your dillussional $70

I am trained on over 50 operations at our plant and not one of them involves"pushing a button" as you put it .As well as being a team leader in 4 teams.Each and everyone of those jobs are repetative physical activities .I start with a buzzer and end at the buzzer with 2 ten min breaks and a 23min lunch in 8 hours.

After 25yrs I have a mortgage,wife, 3 kids and bills like you and the rest.I have only bought 4 new cars in that time. If thats living high off the hog , I must be king porker .

 

Everyone here has an opinion. There is no right or wrong. Except if Misfish doesn't like your answer.

All I know is ,IF something isn't done Canada as a whole and more importantly Ontario will be in a world of hurt.

I will guarantee that If your family isn't affected someone you know directly will. I for one don't want to see that happen.

The powers that be will do the right thing in the end. This is something that will be very carefully thought out. Not a "heres the money" go fix yourself.

[holdfast]

What difference does it make how many posts someone has. His opinion is as valid as anyone elses. Even more so because he's right. Take your high horse to the stable holdfast. You wonder why newbies say this forum is elitist with longtime members thinking they're better than newbies.

 

Cool it, Like I said I agree with him. As far as spelling it out, the 16 Posts if anything is my way of saying, yea I like what he says, especially as a new by. And my disagreement is being sarcastic not to him/her. Now take your High horse and think before you start Jawing off. Whats your problem anyways. Take a valium, Bud. Now thanks to you your going to wake up Roy.