I have to get a new hot water tank, looking for advice NF

[Big Cliff]

Since our water heater decided to quit on us, I now have to get a new hot water heater. The one thing that is a given is that I want propane.

 

Any advice on:

 

Tankless

 

and would I be better to go with a rental program/ outright buying one (I'm thinking that with rental they will be responsible for installing and servicing if I ever have a problem). I do realize that renting is likely going to cost more long term but a service call can add up pretty quickly too and if I buy it then there will be instalation costs.

 

 

Any idea what a monthly rental should be on a 50 gal. Propane, I tried to find some idea of rates on line but didn't have much luck.

 

Being as we are on a well and have a water softener (I am told this is hard on water tanks) . Our current one is about 8 years old and it is a Rheem. Would you say this is about a normal life span for one of these?

 

[Fisherman]

Get the newer vented through the wall model, much more efficient. Tankless sometimes requires having a manifold installed that regulates how much hot water goes to different spots, laundry, bathtub, kitchen, etc. I bought my own about 10 years ago, around the $500 mark. You're easily paying that in rent every year. Figure it out, about every 2-3 years you buy the company another one.

[porkpie]

My hot water tank rental is $18.75 per month, for a total cost of $225 per year. It is an older vent through roof model. I have had several service calls on it, all paid for by reliance. I don't know if I would make out better if I bought a tank, and I also don't know if I would pay more for rental on a newer model, I guess at that point I would have to make the decision as to wether I will buy or not. So far, a rental has worked out well for me! Your mileage may vary.

[cuzza]

When I moved into my new place, I contacted Reliance about a tankless water heater to replace the current one we have, they wanted about $30 per month for it which is a big chunk more than I pay them now (similar figure to porkpie). Not sure how much they are to buy but I think I'd go that route over rental assuming they aren't crazy money.

[ketchenany]

Cliff I just put one last week from Enbridge. The old one had a leak at the drainage tap and they just put in a new one at no cost . . . Rental is the way to go. If it acts up they fix or replace.

[captpierre]

Had to replace my gas rental because of leak. 20+ years old.

It was vented thru the chimney as was furnace. I was told new code was a stainless chimney liner would be needed. $600

End of the day, went with a purchace. Vented thru the wall. Also replaced furnace.

First year, water heated needed service. Electronics. Fixed under warranty.

Problem is, newer appliances are more complicated and more problematic, though more efficient.

Kinda like a four stroke outboard. More fuel efficient. More yearly service. Either way you pay

[Ron]

The number one cause of hot water failures is:

 

People do not regularly drain their tank on at least a yearly basis. When we bought our house 26 yrs ago, I had to replace NG tank. The side rotted out from lack of service. I faithfully flush tank once a year. We are on town water so there is little solids/calcium that accumulate. Tank is still as good as the day we installed it.

 

Myself Cliff, I would purchase tank outright, and flush the tank once every 6 months. If you find lots of build up/solids, calcium, flush more often. If you find that the tank water is fairly clear, flush it out once a year regardless.

 

Cheers, Ron...

 

Oh, and for the money, install a metal drip tray and run drain line along with a water alarm. You can get the tray and water alarm at home hardware. Change the battery in the water alarm the same time you replace the batteries in your smoke detector.

[Fisherman]

 

The number one cause of hot water failures is:

 

People do not regularly drain their tank on at least a yearly basis. When we bought our house 26 yrs ago, I had to replace NG tank. The side rotted out from lack of service. I faithfully flush tank once a year. We are on town water so there is little solids/calcium that accumulate. Tank is still as good as the day we installed it.

 

Myself Cliff, I would purchase tank outright, and flush the tank once every 6 months. If you find lots of build up/solids, calcium, flush more often. If you find that the tank water is fairly clear, flush it out once a year regardless.

 

Cheers, Ron...

 

Oh, and for the money, install a metal drip tray and run drain line along with a water alarm. You can get the tray and water alarm at home hardware. Change the battery in the water alarm the same time you replace the batteries in your smoke detector.

X2

[ch312]

Power vent "through the wall" water heaters are more expensive to buy and rent...about $800 to buy or $30/month to rent ($360/year). Let's say they charge you $450 for installation for a total of $1250 to have a new heater installed. $1250/$360 = 3.5 meaning you could simply have a brand new water heater installed every 3 1/2 years for the same price and not have to worry about decreased efficiency due to mineral deposits in the tank.

 

While on a job this summer I listened to a lengthy lecture from a local HVAC business owner and how rental heaters are such a scam and HUGE money makers for companies like Reliance. He encourages everyone to buy the unit as it's far cheaper for the homeowner 99% of the time as he claims very few water heaters actually require repairs during their expected service life of at least 10 years in homes. Following what someone with 30 years experience has told me, that's roughly $3600 in rental fees over 10 years to pay for an $800 unit (plus installation) that might need repairs during that 10 year period.

 

Rental = Ripoff

 

 

 

[pidge]

Hey Cliff this is my take on it....if you don't have backup parts handy I'd recomend rent. If you buy it and it goes down I'm not sure how long "the Home Depot " is gonna take to get a subcontractor out to fix it. Think about that. On the other hand companies like reliance and direct energy have hip cups as well, but in my opinion are quick on the draw for a service call and 99% of the time will have the needed parts on board. I've installed at least 1000 tanks in my day and Id recomend just renting it. It's peace of mind that you can call a well know company and get service relatively fast vs mom and pops heating or the Home Depot and hope they've got the part to fix it. As mentioned before the newer tanks do have more safety's which = more problematic headaches for the customer. Maybe it's me, but I've never seen the savings in a tankless water heater. Just convenience . My 2 cents.

[Fisherman]

Oh boy, nothing like banging on the drum for renting, just like leasing, never get ahead, keep filling someones elses pocket. At those calculations above, you can buy a new one every 4-5 years with installation and never have any headaches either.

[aplumma]

The rental thing has not caught on here in the US and for good reason. Total waste of money it is a rip off for the customers. Cliff A propane heater treated well will last over 10 years if there is no defects. You can purchase a 10 year warrentee heater if you want but after that few if any companies will extend past that. Here is the key if you buy the heater for $2000.00 installed you have paid $200.00 a year to use it. After 10 years if it does not leak throw it out and start over again. I like the power vent series they are rock solid and have just as good a chance to be trouble free as the older standing pilot heaters. I personally find that the tankless heater to be more of a trouble than a blessing. They need a certain amount of flow for them to trigger on meaning some water conservation showerheads or aerators can keep it from turning on. They are not easy to work on and the lack of parts availability usually means two service calls to fix it. They will leak just as easily as a tank heater and will have less life due to the high temperature that they fire on at. Example is a heater fires 48,000 BTUs while a tankless runs at 150.000 to 240.000 BTUs. The piping size to the heater is most likely to small for the tankless so that has to be added into the cost. Finally a tankless heater uses more gas..... The reason some people get out of the shower is because the water gets cold with a tankless you can stay in for as long as you have fuel. The selling point of storage of hot water is wasted heat is not really true the heat you lose from the tank is inside the house so it heats the water as well as the house.

 

If you have any questions I haven't answered feel free to P.M. me your phone # and I will be happy to talk to you.

 

 

Art

[Headhunter]

Sounds like those in the know Cliff, are suggesting to buy outright. The numbers do add up, if you are planning on being in that house for that period of time.

I think that's the next big question...

HH

[Big Cliff]

Thank you all so much for your ideas and input and Art I was really hoping you'd chime in here and I really appreciate it! The tank that was in here was a Reem Power Vent so everything is in place for a new power vent to be installed. The one we had was only about 8 or 9 years old and it was serviced every year. We still have no idea why it failed though, I guess they will try to figure that out once it has been removed. The insurance company has asked me to hold on to it for further inspection.

 

One thing I did learn though is that it is a good idea to have a shut off valve both on the cold water input and the hot water output from the tank. Our problem was complicated because although I immediatly shut off the gas and cold water supply to the tank, water continued to back feed through the hot water line every time we opened one of our fancy swing type taps (I'm sure there is a proper name for them). This meant that for two days I kept adding more water to the problem but I didn't know it because everything was so wet.

 

Everything is dryed out now, the insurance adjuster was here yesterday, all I am waiting for is the quotes from the contractors which I should have today and the work can begin. They tell me that they should have it all finished by Christmas and we'll be back to normal.

 

The only real down side to the whole thing is that Sue had a collection of Daniel Steel books going right back to her first book. Many of them were first edition and many had been gifts from her mother and I and we had written inscriptions in them. Saddly they were all ruined and while the books themselves could be replaced, the sentemental value is gone forever.

 

Well as they say; there is no point crying over spilt milk or flooded basements!

[pidge]

One more note to add Cliff so your not caught off gaurd is the 2" vent (ABS) will have to be replaced with what is call 636 PVC. If you choose renting this will not be coverd likely, and if you do buy one make sure the tech replaces it. They've learned that the ABS dose not hold up over time and becomes brittle. Not only dose it become brittle at the glue joints, but the fittings are prone to cracking. Just given you a heads up. You can buy the stuff at Home Depot or a heating/cooling supplier like Frontier. Make sure to get the correct glue as well. It's generally in the same section as the vent and labeled for 636 use. I should also add there's two types of 636. White and Grey. White= up to 60 C and Grey= up to 90C flue temps. You'll be fine with white for a residential tank. Good luck mang.

[Big Cliff]

Thanks!

 

Based on all the input from you guys I decided on a Brantford White power vent, Defender series. I did end up going the rental route because by the time I factored in the instalation costs and purchase price it worked out (based on a 10 year life span of the tank) to about $24.00 a year more to rent it than to buy it and pay to have it installed. I also never have to worry about service so for about $240.00 for 10 years coverage I figured it was worth it. The one thing I did when the installers came was insist that they set the tank up on a patio slab so that if there is ever any more water problems in the basement there is no way the tank can be sitting in the water.

 

I should have hot water in about 1/2 an hour, the wife will be pleased!

[aplumma]

Glad to hear Cliff. If they did put a valve on the hot and the cold line as you wanted make sure the gas is off to the heater before closing both valves. The reason we don't and down here it is against code is if you close both valves and the heater tries to generate heat it will expand the water as it heats and hopefully just trips the blow off valve. If it doesn't do that you have a bomb in the basement. Bradford white is a good heater you should be fine with it for many years. Good call on the rental with such a small amount for the repair as needed costs it is worth it. One service call down here is 100.00 for the first 1/2 hour plus parts you can burn up the 240.00 in a hurry.

 

 

Art

[vance]

Myth busters did a show on the exploding water tank and when they do blow it is awesome BUT EVERY safety feature was disabled and it took over a hour at maximum heat to put it through the ROOF.

 

vance

[aplumma]

A pressure temp relief valve( the only safety) can malfunction and become clogged with minerals. The hour it takes to generate the pressure needed to blow is done in silence you don't know when the hour started. Once the heater gets to 212 F you got steam and that is the driving force in the explosion. It is really ugly and the generated energy is very destructive.

 

 

 

Art

[gogu392]

Hi There,

My water thank is Rheem Guardian System 50 gallons.

I see the drain valve but it does not have a screw to open it.

Any body know how to drain this kind of water tank?

Thank you in advance for any info.

Regards.

[pidge]

Depends on the type Guardian, but I believe you got the goofy style drain. It should be white plastic. Just turn left should do the trick. Be careful the water will be very hot likely. And # 2 if its a rental don't bother. Your gonna cause more trouble than its worth more times than often. The seal gets crappy over the years and won't shut off. Be very careful playin with any plastic valve on tanks. The temp swings can make the plastic kinda funny and if it snaps off lookout. If its a rental just leave it alone. If you bought it and its say older than 5-6 years you may be in for a valve replacement cause the buggers usually drip after use. If its got the brass style you should be ok, but those usually showed up on Bradfrodwhites. Cliff good choice man. With all the new safety's on the tanks I've seen them cause nusence call outs. I've been outta the trade for 2 1/2 years so maybe they've got the problems solved. I'd say you made a good choice putting it on a patio stone.

Edited December 12, 2013 by pidge

[aplumma]

The drain valve is located at the bottom of the heater. There are mainly 3 types. 1 Is a draincock that has a screwdriver head on it. 2 is a draincock that has a round handle on it. 3 is a white plastic roughly 3 inch around that has a hose thread on the end of it. The third one is my guess as to the one you have. Put a garden hose on the threaded part of it and run it to a drain. By turning it counterclockwise you will be opening it go 1/2 turn past where you hear water running (Go to far and it will pop out of the heater ) thru it. Let it run till clear or 2 min. which ever comes first. Then close the valve in reverse and hope it closes and is not now full of debris. My personal guidance is if you have not been draining the heater from the start you are asking for trouble. While draining the heater will extend the life the first time the valve malfunctions due to debris you will then be paying a plumber to come out and replace the valve. I have not drained my heaters but instead replace them every 10 years so far never flooded and never fixed my own heater.

 

 

Art

[NANUK]

My last water heater was a rental, it started leaking and I called Enbridge, I was without hot water for 3 days before the service guy showed up, he told me to knock a wall down before he could replace it and he walked away.

I went to home depot, picked up a new heater and installed it with some help from a buddy of mine, put the faulty rental outside and told Enbridge to pick up their POS, they told me that I have to drop it at their depot, I told them if they don't pick it up in the next 24 hours I will be charging them rent, the thing was gone the next morning.

[gogu392]

Thank you for replies. Yes is white plastic, the third one type.

I got the tank installed 3 years ago and was flushed at that time - I saw how they hook a hose to the valve but never bother to ask how they open and close it.

I do own the tank, so I will try to flush it every year from now on.

Thank you for your replies.

[shane]

A couple years ago my rental water heater sprung a leak. I called up Reliance and the guys were here in an hour and two hours later I had a new one installed and working. The only thing I didn't like was they had to put in a steel chimney liner (about $600.00) that they said was required by law but that was just tacked on to my rental bill. No immediate cash outlay.