BRUTAL

[jedimaster]

No laws will prevent people from going crazy and getting there hands of a gun. Guns will be part of this world until a more effective weapon gets invented. Make them illegal and the same crazy people and criminals will be the ones buying and selling them illegally. People need to be able to protect themselves. And to respond to the question above yes this school is on an area that is a gun free zone as in noone can legally carry a gun. Well who wasn't xarrying a gun? The heroes that were throwing there flesh and bones in front of the maniac that was illegally carrying guns.

[Rich]

Indeed. Laws wont fix it. If you could pass a law stating all current guns in the world must be immediately destroyed, that might help. Of course, we need guns for lots of things, so that wouldn't happen.

[fishindevil]

i work in an elementary school,and have for 23yrs,and this has shaken everyone to the core,these were all little kids...except for the 6 adults,its scary and i imagine today there will be alot of scared little kids...its sad and its disgusting...

[DoubleDigits]

From CNN (emphasis mine) :

 

Investigators now know the gunman used "an assault weapon" to "literally (shoot) an entrance into the building," Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy said Sunday. (...)

 

Using a Bushmaster AR-15 "assault-type rifle," the 20-year-old fired multiple magazines -- each of which contained 30 bullets -- to gun down the adults and children in two classrooms, Connecticut State Police Lt. J. Paul Vance said.

 

He then took out a handgun and shot himself in a classroom as officers approached, officials said.

 

All the victims were shot between three and 11 times

 

[i2cool2fool]

This was a very disturbing event. It's hard to even imagine what CT parents are going through.

[blarg]

The guy in China stabbed 22 children. There were no fatalities. Zero.

 

There are many good, responsible people who own hand guns and assault weapons for many different weapons. They keep and operate them safely, and would never think about using them to kill people... would it be a shame that these people would be deprived of their lifelong hobby, and even their own private property, if such weapons were to become illegal?

Yes, it would be...Just not nearly as much as a shame as whole classrooms of children being slaughtered.

Living in society is about making choices and sacrifices for the greater good of everyone...

 

 

Right..see this is exactly the problem, make a choice, are you interested in saving lives? Why aren't you crusading for prohibition then, sure it would suck that you can't have a beer and watch the game, but it would save lives, more than banning a particular type of firearm. It's a small sacrifice but hey, im sure it would save at least ONE innocent life. This is too simplistic of an argument, there are lots of things we could do differently, but what kind of society do you want to live in?

 

The reality is, as terrible as these killings are, they make up a very small percentage of the overall homicide rate, and i don't care if you ban "assault rifles" (though they almost always aren't, they just look the part), but there will still be thousands of people shot every year with handguns, which make up a huge portion of homicides in the states, those are not going to be banned.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

 

That table tells the story. Anything they do will almost certainly be more for public relations than anything else, get rid of the 'black guns' get rid of the semi auto rifles, and you still have the weapon of choice in most homicides and it's impossible to imagine that hand guns are going anywhere in the US.

 

So an important question to ask is, Do you want to save lives, or are you simply anti gun and want to ban whatever you can? Now not you personally, but the cold fact is that simply because these were children, and teachers, and they were shot all at once by a nut with an AR variant, their lives and deaths are no more or less valuable than another innocent shot with a hand gun, or killed by a drunk driver. If you want to save lives there are many other ways to be more effective than banning "assault rifles".

 

For a lot of people involved in this argument a starting point of complete bias against the gun leads them down one path.

[DoubleDigits]

 

For a lot of people involved in this argument a starting point of complete bias against the gun leads them down one path.

 

I don't have a complete bias against the gun. I plan to get my PAL in the next few months. I suspect that the others who have voiced concern about these weapons also aren't anti-gun...

[jedimaster]

In canada an ar15 is able to be owned however the magazines must be pinned so they can only hold 5rounds if its a .223 magazine and a 10rounds if it has been adapted to shoot pistol rounds.

Things to consider hear. What is it exactly people have an issue with the ar15?

 

The bullet? Well a.223 or 5.56 nato is certainly no more dangerous than any other bullet out there in common use and is in fact very tame in comparison.

 

Is it the capacity? Extended 30 round magazines are commonly available for many semi automatic rifles out there.

 

If ar15's were banned and literally wiped off the face of the planet people would just buy or make extended magazines for other guns.

 

I am not saying nothing should be done but whatever is done shouldn't be directed towards an object that in reality is no more dangerous than any other firearm. I mean what if he used a pump shotgun with buckshot that used a magazine? I think more would have been killed.

 

Perhaps its just the looks of the ar15 that scares people. Canada has a scary gun list and what has that done to prevent mass shootings here? They don't happen as often heard as in the states but they never have.

 

Lets say you ban ar15 rifles. People will just use remington or ruger semi auto.

What if you ban semi auto rifles. People will use pump action rifles and shotguns

What if you ban high capacity magazines? People will just make them or modify them.

The point isn't to do nothing its that making changes like this is worse than doing nothing. Its putting false security into peoples heads. Do something useful. It sounded like Obama is going to do something. I watched the entire memorial last night and he certainly indicated changes must be made. Hopefully its something that will actually make a difference.

[lew]

Doesn't matter what kind of gun your killed with, your still dead.

[Headhunter]

Many here have said that they wish these poor victums rest in peace... I can't think that way. I can only hope that their restless souls haunt the powerful gun lobby and legislators.

I hope that the next time they hit the range to enjoy their "hobby", they put pictures of those kids on their targets and ask themselves this question;

Is my enjoyment of this hobby really worth the lives of these kids and the ones who haven't been shot yet? Because we all know this will happen again.

HH

[Rich]

Ugh. Seriously. I hope you put a picture of every car accident ib your windshield, a picture of a drunk beating his wife / kids on every beer bottle, a big fat dude having heart surgery on every bag of chips, etc. etc. Etc. Etc!

[outllaw]

pretty obvious a society flaw.folks have the belief they can not be protected by the system. they arm themselves then this issue happens. sadly its the american way..when and where i grew up society solved their problems thru parenting,and a decent society background..lews correct on his post.

[Terry]

if nothing else it show how different the mind set is between Canada and the US

[Headhunter]

I will when I see endless numbers of cars being driven into schools killing kids.

HH

[Dave Bailey]

My thoughts on Friday's tragedy. I am NOT against gun ownership and hunting, but I am against the gun mentality, and the idea that anyone should be able to get anything.

 

The 2nd amendment argument is garbage. When it was drafted the only firearms were muzzle-loaders, not assault rifles with 30 round clips. And despite what the NRA tries to instill in people's minds, it isn't inviolate. Amendments are able to themselves be amended, in fact it's been done. Prohibition was a constitutional amendment that was repealed with another amendment.

 

People also like to scream that registration is the first step in taking away your guns. More garbage. We've been registering cars, aircraft, and powerboats, for a century, I haven't seen any attempts to take them away. It's just scare-mongering to trick the stupid and gullible. Yes, I know our gun registry was a financial boondoggle, but it didn't need to be, that was just typical bureaucratic mismanagment (And since I know one of the guys in charge I speak with some knowledge of just how inefficient he can be. I also trained him on the use of the FN C2 when I was in the army reserve, and he's dangerous around weapons).

 

And forget those who say that automatic weapons are the problem, so we can restrict everyone to semi-autos and everything will be okay. That only applies to some weapons. I carried an FN 7.62mm C1A1 for 10 years, and one of the first things every Canadian infantryman learned to do was turn it from semi-auto to full-auto in a few minutes with the simple placement of a piece of folded paper in the trigger group. Ditto for restricting magazine size, we would use gunner's tape to double-mag or even triple-mag for faster reloads.

 

Finally, I don't buy the argument that the citizens need to be armed in order to prevent the government from getting out of control. Unless you want to argue for private ownership of B-2 bombers, F-15 Strike Eagles, Apache helicopters, M1 Abrams tanks, and all the munitions that go with these weapons systems (and the NRA probably would lobby for such possession), then you're not going to do much when your rag-tag gang of drunken hillbillies goes up against a professional armed forces that will vastly outnumber you.

 

Most of the excuses are just pulled out the asses of people who are so paranoid of everything around them that they feel the need to swagger around with a gun, as if it makes them tough. Truth be told, if someone started shooting most of them would forget they had a weapon, they would be too busy crapping their pants and crying. Most of them think they are carrying it in case they need to use it, when actually they are carrying it as a security blanket. And a blanket won't stop a bullet.

[jedimaster]

I will when I see endless numbers of cars being driven into schools killing kids.

HH

 

In 2009 there were 12,000 gun murders

In 2009 there were 10,839 deaths in the US by drunk drivers alone

In 2009 there were 33,808 deaths in the US by car

 

Better get a sticker on you steering wheel, and ban alcohol. Make driving drunk illegal, oh wait it already is. The point is, by making something illegal you don't stop it from happening.

 

Some stats to be more specific...

 

268 deaths by a firearm in in 2009 in the US to children under the age 14

704 deaths by drowning in 2009 in the US to children under the age 14

3215 deaths by transport and motor vehicle in 2009 to children under the age of 14

 

Why not ban all swimming pools and put fences aroung every lake, pond, ocean and stream?

Why not Ban all vehicles?

How many motor boat deaths were there?

Why not ban motor boats?

What about canoes?

Lets ban those as I am sure people have died falling out of canoes.

What about tigers and elephants, lets kill all of those because they have killed people too.

What about ropes? People use those to kill themselves, lets ban ropes.

 

Actually I think its safer if everyone just lives in there houses, locked up in bullet proof and bomb proof dungeons and then they just control robots to live there lives outside.

 

I am certainly not trying to minimalize the tragedy that happened but a kneejerk reaction like lets ban some guns is just ridiculas.

 

The reality is a guy went bonkers, stole some guns(I though he bought them but that report on the news turned out to be false) and shot a bunch of kids. So very sad, but banning guns isn't going to stop gun violence and it isn't going to stop people from being killed, and it isn't going to make people feel safer. In fact in Australia since the banned all semi auto's the stats on safety have gone down. People feel less safe now than they did before semi's weere banned.

Edited December 17, 2012 by jedimaster

[Old Man]

Anything can be used as a weapon by someone intent on causing others harm. Just one example of many.

 

My link

Edited December 17, 2012 by Old Man

[doubleheader]

I'm not sure you can draw many conclusions as to root cause from this one event, but looking at the collective history of these types of events over the last 20 years I think one can if not understand root cause certainly develop a list of likely root causes, the degree to which each one plays a role is probably incident specific.

 

1. Unsupervised access to handguns and rifles. I'm a gun owner, in fact I have a conceal carry permit. To me it's inconceivable that kids are allowed unsupervised access to guns, ammunition, explosives, and so on.

2. Unsupervised and continuous access to violent video games. No one can convince me that playing these games hour after hour after hour doesn't desensitize the most vulnerable and "most likely" youths of the world.

3. A cultural fascination with violence. American Tv is filled with some of the most heinous and realistic murder shows. Case in point, anyone ever watch Criminal Minds? It's ridiculously realistic and savage. I stopped watching it because it's just too realistic. Why do they make shows like this? Because people watch. The same reason this tragic event will get top billing for weeks on end. I'm not saying the media should ignore this tragedy, but, at what point does the coverage only serve to inflate ratings, satisfy our fascination. Then there will be books, and likely a movie. This whole "circus" must spawn ideas to cop or even out due. A viscous cycle.

4. Lack of sufficient mental health care. Many parents report their kids to authorities because they fear they may be capable of something like this. Most generally they can't get help until the kid does something serious.

5. Drugs and alcohol. Prescription drugs or street drugs must be a contributing factor.

6. Jealousy and a general lack of respect for your neighbor. In the US our most recent Presidential election was over the top. For months we were bombarded with the name calling. I believe there is a trickle down effect.

 

There are surely many other contributing factors to these type of crimes, and maybe some of what I have on my list is off base. Food for thought; we have some 300 million in the US, maybe only 3 million of them have some sort of mental issue health issue that under the right circumstances make them susceptible to commit violent acts, maybe 10% of those play videos hours on end maybe only 1 in 1000 of those have access to weapons. That's 300 potential mass murderers at any given time, 300 time bombs. Obviously it's not this cut and dry in the real world, but it makes me wonder if there really ever can be a solution without a major change in our culture.

Edited December 17, 2012 by doubleheader

[jedimaster]

Truth be told, if someone started shooting most of them would forget they had a weapon, they would be too busy crapping their pants and crying. Most of them think they are carrying it in case they need to use it, when actually they are carrying it as a security blanket. And a blanket won't stop a bullet.

 

I dare you to ask the families of the 6 adults that lunged in the way of bullets to protect the children if they would have rather they had a firearm that they could have used instead of there bodies. Not everyone will choose to cower in the corner.

 

You say you are not against gun ownership, so what is it that you are offering as a possible step towards a solution? Are you suggesting that people only be allowed to own muzzle loaders? Are you saying there should be a gun registry? The firearms used were stolen. They were not his. Even if they were registered how would that have prevented anything from happening? Criminals don't use registered guns and people that go crazy don't care if a gun is registered, or is leagal. Legeislation on guns can't prevent crazy people and criminals from killing people.

[fishermccann]

I dare you to ask the families of the 6 adults that lunged in the way of bullets to protect the children if they would have rather they had a firearm that they could have used instead of there bodies. Not everyone will choose to cower in the corner.

 

You say you are not against gun ownership, so what is it that you are offering as a possible step towards a solution? Are you suggesting that people only be allowed to own muzzle loaders? Are you saying there should be a gun registry? The firearms used were stolen. They were not his. Even if they were registered how would that have prevented anything from happening? Criminals don't use registered guns and people that go crazy don't care if a gun is registered, or is leagal. Legeislation on guns can't prevent crazy people and criminals from killing people.

How about all guns kept locked in a central location, where you sign them out each time, after a few questions to make sure you are "of sound mind".

[jedimaster]

How about all guns kept locked in a central location, where you sign them out each time, after a few questions to make sure you are "of sound mind".

 

Like, perhaps, Hi someone broke into my house and is raping my wife so I would like to get my gun out of the locker so I can go home and defend my house and family.... Those sort of questions and answers?

[muddler]

I'm not sure you can draw many conclusions as to root cause from this one event, but looking at the collective history of these types of events over the last 20 years I think one can if not understand root cause certainly develop a list of likely root causes, the degree to which each one plays a role is probably incident specific.

 

1. Unsupervised access to handguns and rifles. I'm a gun owner, in fact I have a conceal carry permit. To me it's inconceivable that kids are allowed unsupervised access to guns, ammunition, explosives, and so on.

2. Unsupervised and continuous access to violent video games. No one can convince me that playing these games hour after hour after hour doesn't desensitize the most vulnerable and "most likely" youths of the world.

3. A cultural fascination with violence. American Tv is filled with some of the most heinous and realistic murder shows. Case in point, anyone ever watch Criminal Minds? It's ridiculously realistic and savage. I stopped watching it because it's just too realistic. Why do they make shows like this? Because people watch. The same reason this tragic event will get top billing for weeks on end. I'm not saying the media should ignore this tragedy, but, at what point does the coverage only serve to inflate ratings, satisfy our fascination. Then there will be books, and likely a movie. This whole "circus" must spawn ideas to cop or even out due. A viscous cycle.

4. Lack of sufficient mental health care. Many parents report their kids to authorities because they fear they may be capable of something like this. Most generally they can't get help until the kid does something serious.

5. Drugs and alcohol. Prescription drugs or street drugs must be a contributing factor.

6. Jealousy and a general lack of respect for your neighbor. In the US our most recent Presidential election was over the top. For months we were bombarded with the name calling. I believe there is a trickle down effect.

 

There are surely many other contributing factors to these type of crimes, and maybe some of what I have on my list is off base. Food for thought; we have some 300 million in the US, maybe only 3 million of them have some sort of mental issue health issue that under the right circumstances make them susceptible to commit violent acts, maybe 10% of those play videos hours on end maybe only 1 in 1000 of those have access to weapons. That's 300 potential mass murderers at any given time, 300 time bombs. Obviously it's not this cut and dry in the real world, but it makes me wonder if there really ever can be a solution without a major change in our culture.

 

 

 

Very well put. I couldn't agree with you more. muddler

[fishermccann]

Jedi...When you reply in the extreme like that , you lose all credibility!

Edited December 17, 2012 by fishermccann

[BillM]

I dare you to ask the families of the 6 adults that lunged in the way of bullets to protect the children if they would have rather they had a firearm that they could have used instead of there bodies. Not everyone will choose to cower in the corner.

 

 

Sensationalism at it's best right here.

 

:EDIT: Here's some more.

 

Like, perhaps, Hi someone broke into my house and is raping my wife so I would like to get my gun out of the locker so I can go home and defend my house and family.... Those sort of questions and answers?

Edited December 17, 2012 by BillM

[jedimaster]

And saying that people will choose to cower in the corner and crap there pants instead of stand up and fight back isn't sensationalism? That is what I was responding to.

 

As for my second statement, that is not sensationalism that is fact and happens frequently, even here in Canada, people have had to resort to the use of firearms to protect there house and family.

Edited December 17, 2012 by jedimaster