ch312 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 does buying a 3.5" gun mean you always need to use the more expensive bigger shells? i dont think so. but, its nice having the extra capacity they provide when using buckshot, steel, and turkey loads. basically, its nice having the extra pellet count when you need it. a 2 3/4" gun can do anything a 3 1/2" gun can, but the bigger shell often produces superior patterns. 175-200 yards should never be attempted with a shotgun by anyone and only a fine tuned rifle is capable of those ranges? new to firearms, are we?
dave524 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 lmao... you might not be capable of shooting at those ranges, but many are. a sabot properly matched to your gun is more than capable at those ranges. anyone disagreing with that is stuck in the rifled slug/smoothbore I shot the first southern Ontario controlled hunter number shotgun hunt in 76 or 77 , back when shotgun slug technology was pretty much the antiquated Foster type slug in your favourite bird gun. Since the start of the controlled hunts, muzzleloaders have always been an alternative to a shotgun and at that time a far better choice for accuracy and range. Slug gun technology has come a long way since then but 35 seasons and a lot of deer later I have never regetted sticking to the old smokepole, just another option few consider for the southern Ontario deer hunts. Why hunt with a shotgun when you can use a real rifle
Billy Bob Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 lmao... so, just how many extra ounces do you consider MUCH heavier? you might not be capable of shooting at those ranges, but many are. a sabot properly matched to your gun is more than capable at those ranges. anyone disagreing with that is stuck in the rifled slug/smoothbore OH, OK......I'll play along.....since I know nothing about those new fanged dangled things they call sabot slugs maybe you can teach me.... But I do know that a sabot slug muzzle velocity ranges anywhere from 1400 to 1700 fps....remember I said MUZZLE velocity.....with a range of 1700 to 2400 foot lbs of energy at the MUZZLE....quite impressive to start off....right. But here's where it gets a little baffling for me at least....at a distance of only 125 yards those sabot slugs have lost a lot of energy and velocity (by the way this is the recommended limit for slugs) and now that same slug is down to about 1100 fps and foot lbs of energy has been reduce in about HALF.....now that's at 125 yards....once you get beyond that distance the speed of that slug and the energy behind it REALLY drops off.... Now going back to your recommended distance of 175 - 200 yards the energy and velocity (speed) of those new fanged dangled slugs are really dropping off....as a matter of fact I already mentioned at 175 yards that slug will drop 9.9" on a GOOD DAY....at 200 yards I would have to estimate it over 15".... So with all that scientific infomation available to us how high would you have to aim in order to put that new fanged dangled sabot slug into the boiler room of a whitetail deer ? ? ?....OH WAIT....we forgot about wind drift didn't we....huh, who would of thought that a small wind of only 10 miles per hour could move that new fanged dangled sabot slug out of the killing zone....wait wait....I did....Ballistics have shown us that a MILD 10 mph cross wind will move that slug over about 6" at 125 yards....so at 200 yards that calculates to at least 1 FOOT left or right of the aim target.... So now how are you going to aim at the distance of 200 yards a that deer in hopefully a clearing with no other hunters around..... Well my new fanged dangled sabot shooter has a 2.5X scope on it with a special eye relief that shotgun scopes have because of the BRUISING kick these 12 gauge shotguns deliver while shooting any kind of slug....but you know what......2.5X scope is really not made to make shots at 200 yards....but you could use a rifle scope with a eye relief of 3-4" and take the chance of that scope leaving a bite mark on your forehead....if I met you I could probably tell if you had the pleasure of this experience as many times the scare is still there.....but maybe you are using the improper scope and keep you head and cheek back to prevent this...only problem is now you don't have a good cheek weld to the stock and in doing so you will never become a good shot, not to mentions a sharpshooter that is needed to pull off this stunt....YES I said STUNT because it is very irresponsible to shoot at a whitetail deer at 175-200 yards with a SHOTGUN....even with those new fanged dangle sabot slugs I know nothing about according to you sir. BTW the ESTIMATED answer would be depending on the cross wind direction and which way this whitetail is looking and HOPEFULLY he is completely broadside for this stunt shot.....15" high and about 12" right or left depending on wind direction.....GOOD LUCK with that......but if you can make that shot I am willing to invite you down to my gun club range to witness this. As far as the weight of the gun....I'm not even going to address that... Good Luck Hunting, Bob
GbayGiant Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I have to agree with Bob in this situation. If you plan on shooting over 100 yards with your shotgun. Buy a rifle.
BillM Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I'd like to see all these guys dropping deer at 200 yards with a shotgun. Talk about internet heros!
dave524 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I have to agree with Bob in this situation. If you plan on shooting over 100 yards with your shotgun. Buy a rifle. Muzzleloaders are legal in controlled southern Ontario hunts
GbayGiant Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I'd like to see all these guys dropping deer at 200 yards with a shotgun. Talk about internet heros! The number one reason why I do not except venison from other people. Can you say gut shot? Would you eat meat that was dropped in scat and washed?
GbayGiant Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 Muzzleloaders are legal in controlled southern Ontario hunts That's a Muzzle load all right....
Billy Bob Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I shot the first southern Ontario controlled hunter number shotgun hunt in 76 or 77 , back when shotgun slug technology was pretty much the antiquated Foster type slug in your favourite bird gun. Since the start of the controlled hunts, muzzleloaders have always been an alternative to a shotgun and at that time a far better choice for accuracy and range. Slug gun technology has come a long way since then but 35 seasons and a lot of deer later I have never regetted sticking to the old smokepole, just another option few consider for the southern Ontario deer hunts. Why hunt with a shotgun when you can use a real rifle Although I never got into the muzzle loaders....this would be a much better choice for a 175-200 yard shot then any shotgun.... Are you guys up there allowed scopes on those smoke poles....some states down here prohibit scopes on muzzle loaders.....but not NYS.
Sinker Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 Yeah, scopes are good to go. We use them for turkkeys on our scatterguns as well. S.
Cookslav Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 In the Hunter Safety course the reccomendation from my instructor as an effective range for a Sabot Slug through my 870 Supermag was "not more then 150 yards." Thats not by anymeans my recommendation....its just what I was told when I asked. I personally don't think I'd squeeze the trigger if I had more then 100 yards between me and my Deer... My grouping tends to be about 4" at that range (which I am aware is poor... ) I use Buck shot when driving for the obvious and Sabbot on the stand. But my in the ravine 30/06 is prefered for the longer shot.
Billy Bob Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 In the Hunter Safety course the reccomendation from my instructor as an effective range for a Sabot Slug through my 870 Supermag was "not more then 150 yards." Thats not by anymeans my recommendation....its just what I was told when I asked. I personally don't think I'd squeeze the trigger if I had more then 100 yards between me and my Deer... My grouping tends to be about 4" at that range (which I am aware is poor... ) I use Buck shot when driving for the obvious and Sabbot on the stand. But my in the ravine 30/06 is prefered for the longer shot. Not really.....4" groups at 100 yards is pretty good on a solid rest and is fantastic off hand for shotgunning....you'll bring a lot of venison home if you can do that day in and day out. What makes shooting a 12 gauge shotgun accurate with sabot slugs is not only the pounding you take from each shot but also the expense for each sabot shell.....a box of 5 sabots will cost you about $20 ($4 per shot) where a box (20 per box) of your 30/06 shells can be had for about the same amount $20 ($1 per shot) unless you reload your own. And as ch312 did state, some sabots shoot better then others and you really need to try to find which one fires the best out of your rifled barrel.....and that can depend on the twist rate of that barrel....by the time you find the best one your shoulder is all black and blue and your broke...LOL...
Cookslav Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 you'll bring a lot of venison home if you can do that day in and day out. Day in and out...not a chance, thats a good day, and I'm happy with that when I get there LOL! My Dads groupings are usually 2-3"...maybe I measure myself to to high a standard But then again our range may not be 100 yards "exactly"...maybe I'm a horrible estimator and it's 70 LOL!!! (its a hunt camp....and it looks to be 100 yards give or take) One thing for sure...sighting in sabots tend to leave a bruise
ch312 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 OH, OK......I'll play along.....since I know nothing about those new fanged dangled things they call sabot slugs maybe you can teach me.... But I do know that a sabot slug muzzle velocity ranges anywhere from 1400 to 1700 fps....remember I said MUZZLE velocity.....with a range of 1700 to 2400 foot lbs of energy at the MUZZLE....quite impressive to start off....right. But here's where it gets a little baffling for me at least....at a distance of only 125 yards those sabot slugs have lost a lot of energy and velocity (by the way this is the recommended limit for slugs) and now that same slug is down to about 1100 fps and foot lbs of energy has been reduce in about HALF.....now that's at 125 yards....once you get beyond that distance the speed of that slug and the energy behind it REALLY drops off.... Now going back to your recommended distance of 175 - 200 yards the energy and velocity (speed) of those new fanged dangled slugs are really dropping off....as a matter of fact I already mentioned at 175 yards that slug will drop 9.9" on a GOOD DAY....at 200 yards I would have to estimate it over 15".... So with all that scientific infomation available to us how high would you have to aim in order to put that new fanged dangled sabot slug into the boiler room of a whitetail deer ? ? ?....OH WAIT....we forgot about wind drift didn't we....huh, who would of thought that a small wind of only 10 miles per hour could move that new fanged dangled sabot slug out of the killing zone....wait wait....I did....Ballistics have shown us that a MILD 10 mph cross wind will move that slug over about 6" at 125 yards....so at 200 yards that calculates to at least 1 FOOT left or right of the aim target.... So now how are you going to aim at the distance of 200 yards a that deer in hopefully a clearing with no other hunters around..... Well my new fanged dangled sabot shooter has a 2.5X scope on it with a special eye relief that shotgun scopes have because of the BRUISING kick these 12 gauge shotguns deliver while shooting any kind of slug....but you know what......2.5X scope is really not made to make shots at 200 yards....but you could use a rifle scope with a eye relief of 3-4" and take the chance of that scope leaving a bite mark on your forehead....if I met you I could probably tell if you had the pleasure of this experience as many times the scare is still there.....but maybe you are using the improper scope and keep you head and cheek back to prevent this...only problem is now you don't have a good cheek weld to the stock and in doing so you will never become a good shot, not to mentions a sharpshooter that is needed to pull off this stunt....YES I said STUNT because it is very irresponsible to shoot at a whitetail deer at 175-200 yards with a SHOTGUN....even with those new fanged dangle sabot slugs I know nothing about according to you sir. BTW the ESTIMATED answer would be depending on the cross wind direction and which way this whitetail is looking and HOPEFULLY he is completely broadside for this stunt shot.....15" high and about 12" right or left depending on wind direction.....GOOD LUCK with that......but if you can make that shot I am willing to invite you down to my gun club range to witness this. As far as the weight of the gun....I'm not even going to address that... Good Luck Hunting, Bob your post so full of fail going by your train of thought you need a finely tuned rifle to shoot at 200 yards. i guess you arent aware that $100 milsurps, new rifles with a whopping $300 price tag, and even the lowly 22lr (mainly prairie dogs) is used by some hunters at these ranges. i guess you're also unaware of people successfully taking deer at these ranges with the slower and less powerful 20 gauge? btw...you might want to have a clue what you're talking about before labeling yourself the next craig boddington. winchester xp3 3" sabot throws a 300gr slug at 2000 fps with 7.3" drop at 175 yards. at 200 yards its still traveling 1380fps with 1260ft/lbs of energy and 10.5" drop. considering 7-800ft/lbs is the minimum recommendation for deer sized game, you're good to go. a 10mph crosswind makes it drift 11". winchester 3" partition gold is even better at 200 yards. 1400fps, 1656 ft/lbs of energy, 11" drop, and 10" drift at 10mph. thats assuming you're using a 100 yard zero. but, for these ranges a 150 yard zero would be much better as the drop at 200 yards will be 6-7" and 2-3" high at 90-100 yards. if you arent capable of compensating for a 6" drop or 10" drift, then i'll agree that you shouldn't be shooting at longer ranges. your "estimated" 15" drop and 12" drift is a far cry from 6" drop and 10" drift. the guns are capable. the ammo is definitely capable. the last part of the equation is the hunter. that said, i havent shot a deer past 100 yards because i prefer to get close. BUT, to come on here claiming that modern shotguns and ammo arent capable of 200 yard shots is absurd. like i said, get with the times. im not talking about using grandpas smooth bore with rifled slugs here. i'm talking a modern shotgun, fully rifled barrel, your preferred scope, and premium ammo. 2.5x scopes aren't good enough, so you have to use a rifle scope with lower eye relief? what on earth are you talking about? there are multiple 1.75-4x, 2-7x, 3-9x shotgun scopes available with longer eye relief for shotguns. as for the weight differences. you're right, you shouldn't go there. i've shot many 3" and 3 1/2" guns and the weight difference is so minimal it isnt even noticeable while you're holding it. 3" rem 870 express 28" barrel 7 1/2 lbs 3.5" rem 870 express super mag 28" barrel 7 1/2 lbs 3" mossberg 500 7 1/2 lbs 3.5" mossberg 835 7 1/2 lbs just to clarify, exactly what do you consider to be MUCH heavier? like i said, you're going by technology or what you were taught 20 years ago...
ch312 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Not really.....4" groups at 100 yards is pretty good on a solid rest and is fantastic off hand for shotgunning....you'll bring a lot of venison home if you can do that day in and day out. What makes shooting a 12 gauge shotgun accurate with sabot slugs is not only the pounding you take from each shot but also the expense for each sabot shell.....a box of 5 sabots will cost you about $20 ($4 per shot) where a box (20 per box) of your 30/06 shells can be had for about the same amount $20 ($1 per shot) unless you reload your own. And as ch312 did state, some sabots shoot better then others and you really need to try to find which one fires the best out of your rifled barrel.....and that can depend on the twist rate of that barrel....by the time you find the best one your shoulder is all black and blue and your broke...LOL... im not trying to start a conflict here, but if you're getting a bruised shoulder from shooting you need to work on shooting form and possibly get your stock modified to fit you properly. not only will it help your body absorb recoil better, you'll often be a more confident and accurate shooter. as for cost of slugs. considering most guns are close to zero after removing and remounting the scope and rifled barrel, it should only take a box to get back on zero and another box to make sure everything is proper. so, figure 2-3 boxes for the average guy shooting average distances. considering how much most hunters spend on gear, tags, gas, etc, $50-60 for 3 boxes of premium ammo isnt very expensive at all. why do people spend hundreds on a nice fishing rod when an el cheapo from canada tire will work? it's the exact same thing...people pay a premium for performance. rifles are much cheaper, but around here we're limited to muzzleloaders and shotguns for deer. therefore, the more economical choice is a shotgun with rifled barrel. Edited March 30, 2012 by ch312
Billy Bob Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 BEAUTIFUL....would you like to join me at my gun club and put those ballistics to the test on the range and see how well you do.... I do a LOT of long range shooting at the range and in the field during woodchuck season.....I would love to shoot with you. Bob
Billy Bob Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 And you can bring whatever gun you like......shotgun, smoke pole, rifle or you can use one of my pistols if you wish....we'll start at 100 yards and move back 25 yards each time....
ch312 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 well, you'll have to wait until august or september when my new slug gun will be in my safe. i hunt quite a bit for pretty much everything out there, so i didn't like having my shotgun dedicated to deer for 2 weeks every season (shoot a few days before the season and season lasts 1 week). therefore, i'm switching to a dedicated slug gun. many reports of 4" groups at 200 yards from savage and NEF shooters while i'll probably never shoot a deer past 100 yards, i have zero problems paying for accuracy and range. i'm hoping i'm not going to regret selling my 870 combo that produced those purdy little 2" center to center groups at 125 yards... considering i sent a few hundred sabots down that tube, i'm fully aware of how i'd do at those ranges and it's only gonna get better once i get the new gun dialed in. the fact is, you're arguing when you clearly have very little experience with shooting different slug guns and your statements reflect that. i could care less how often you shoot or what you shoot, we're talking specifically about shooting sabot slugs. go send 3-400 sabots of all the major brands you can find and it'll open your eyes as to what a properly matched combo is capable of. sure it's expensive, but shooting them is a hoot. i really don't understand why you're so full of doubt when i posted the numbers for you. just because you're not comfortable or capable of doing something it doesn't mean everyone else is the same. while i'm against long range hunting (500 yards+) and can't shoot that good, there's other people out there with machine like precision that can do it all day. just like some can accurately shoot slugs at 200 yards, while others can't.
misfish Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 well, you'll have to wait until august or september when my new slug gun will be in my safe. i hunt quite a bit for pretty much everything out there, so i didn't like having my shotgun dedicated to deer for 2 weeks every season (shoot a few days before the season and season lasts 1 week). therefore, i'm switching to a dedicated slug gun. many reports of 4" groups at 200 yards from savage and NEF shooters while i'll probably never shoot a deer past 100 yards, i have zero problems paying for accuracy and range. i'm hoping i'm not going to regret selling my 870 combo that produced those purdy little 2" center to center groups at 125 yards... considering i sent a few hundred sabots down that tube, i'm fully aware of how i'd do at those ranges and it's only gonna get better once i get the new gun dialed in. the fact is, you're arguing when you clearly have very little experience with shooting different slug guns and your statements reflect that. i could care less how often you shoot or what you shoot, we're talking specifically about shooting sabot slugs. go send 3-400 sabots of all the major brands you can find and it'll open your eyes as to what a properly matched combo is capable of. sure it's expensive, but shooting them is a hoot. i really don't understand why you're so full of doubt when i posted the numbers for you. just because you're not comfortable or capable of doing something it doesn't mean everyone else is the same. while i'm against long range hunting (500 yards+) and can't shoot that good, there's other people out there with machine like precision that can do it all day. just like some can accurately shoot slugs at 200 yards, while others can't. Quit while you think yer a head BB. This guy knows what he,s talking about.Read alot of his posts,here and there.
waterwolf Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 I'm not getting pissy at all, and I'm a hardcore 870 fan. However, you are correct in what you said about them stove piping shells. You can't baby these guns. They are built to take a beating, and meant to be handled that way. Seems like the harder I am on mine, the better it gets. Mine is smooth as silk, and the action can be cycled with two fingers, but I still slam it as hard as I can every time! That's how they're meant to work! In saying that, I know guys who have had issues with thier 870's. Most of them are super mags, but I have good buddies I hunt with all the time, who have converted from their fancy Beretta's, Benelli's and Franchi's to an 870 for reliability in the field. The guy I hunt with most has since bought 3 870's, and he couldn't stand them when we first started hunting. His Beretta was the first to go, after watching me pound ducks, while his was a single shot, then When his BRAND NEW Franchi did the same thing, he got rid of that, and now shoots an 870 with not a single issue. I have another buddy who got rid of a Benelli SBE2 after 2 seasons, because it never worked properly from day one. Guess what he shoots now?? The bottom line is you can't go wrong with an 870 as your first gun. If you don't like it, sell it, and try something else. I wouldn't recommend the super mags though, they are the ones that seem to have the problems. The Magnums are fine, and you don't need the 3.5" shells to kill your quarry. That is a fact!! If you can find an older used one, that is the way to go. They are bullet proof, and will out live all of us! S.
waterwolf Posted March 30, 2012 Report Posted March 30, 2012 870 express? for the money? absolutely!! this is a great firearm that won't say quit.has never let me down! more expensive toys may look nice on out-of-the-case-brag day but it's all attitidude, pissin contest.i was closin bow season, passin the torch to the shotgun guys in the same area, when i met a guy was braggin about his over-under ,$4000 benelli.broke the gun to show off the smooth action only to reveal it was still loaded from last year! it's the gunner ,not the gun. be safe guys n gals.
brkygetr Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 I read this post earlier when it was under 2 pages. I noticed the pages and quite honestly did not read another post. All I have to say is 'BPS'. You want a smooth gun, reliable, interchangable barrels/chokes and an acceptable breach for all shells, this is it. Rubberized stock and pump is also nice, especially when its crappy out or you are slugging through the bush. Holds on REAL well. Just my opinion mind you. If not get an 870.
farsider Posted March 31, 2012 Report Posted March 31, 2012 Thanks to your advice I checked out Canadian Gun Nutz. They have an incredible thread about shortening PAL approval times. I only wish I had known about it sooner but I will still be able to use the "calling in your references" part. I am still going through it all(It has many pages). Anyways, here is the link for those in process or soon to be: CDN Gun Nutz Cheers, Mark
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