Lets see what ya think

[Bernie]

I think there are too many options Brian but some are good . A farmer may need a diesel for taking a load of hay to southern Ontario or a couple horses in a trailer. A local small business may need a light duty for running trash to the local dump. 4x4 for a backwoods camping business. I'm sure you get the idea.

Personally I like power windows and locks. A/C I could do without, but it's nice. I only put about 5000 k on my vehicle in a year. Really the accessories are not that expensive. What is pricey on vehicles is the engineering for newer technologys (read emissions). All this clean air stuff is costing us all more than you realize (I am not saying this is a bad thing by the way). And of course what we have all been hammering each other with recently is the high cost of management and wages. This is an extremely simplified version of it all though.

But the whole scenario mostly is the result of greed on the part of most everyone in today's society.

[hammercarp]

All I wanted to know is,if the big three built basic and just one big one, would it be better?

No I don't think so. What about the imports? We live in a consumer society and Toyota and the rest would simply take over completely.

[TennesseeGuy]

Haven't you learned anything. Your so called free market got us into this mess.

 

Are you scolding me for my opinion?

 

I've learned that Toyota and General Motors sold nearly the same number of units in 2007. GM was free to screw up and show an annual loss in the neighborhood of 39 billion U.S. dollars. Toyota, selling the same number of vehicles, showed a profit of around 15 billion U.S. dollars.

 

Both companies are free to manufacture and sell as they see fit. And I'm free to buy what appears to be the best vehicle for my money. I've purchased 8 new GM vehicles and 2 new Chrysler vehicles. My most recent new car purchases were a Honda (assembled in Ontario) and a Toyota (assembled in Kentucky). The Honda and Toyota are far superior to all the rest.

 

I'd like to be free to purchase the best vehicle I can find for the money instead of contributing (a very small amount) to companies that are failures.

[SlowPoke]

If I were boss....

 

- Aim for "Best in Class" in a single brand. Stop trying to win overall market share by producing numerous models competing against eachother. Did GM really need a Chevy Monte Carlo, Oldsmobile Cutlass, Pontiac Grand Prix and Buick Century to represent the 2-door coupe class? Did they really need a Chev/Olds dealer beside a Pontiac/Buick dealer? Minimize redundancy, maximize brand identity.

 

- Smaller dealer networks. A huge expense passed on to franchisees forced to compete with mirror image products just hundreds of yards away. Independents are forced to swallow excess inventory on slow moving product to have access to fast moving, profitable products. Even dealers with the best business models are seeing hard times because of the demands placed upon them by the manufacture. Rebates, financing deals and "employee pricing" events are imposed on dealers to move a glut of inventory as a result of poor planning from the manufacturer. I would look into manufacturer owned dealers - "super centers" if you will. One or two large showrooms to service a large market. Franchise out service/parts departments. Smaller, more versitile authorized repair centers tailored to thier communities. There is nothing I hate more than paying $100/hr to a dealer knowing that a good portion of that is to support a glitzy showroom that I may visit once every 4 or 5 years.

 

- Reduce legacy costs. Continue to offer 'walk-away' packages to sever future financial ties to employees. Without crunching numbers, I suspect there is too-good-to-pass-up number in everyones mind and paying out now will surely save a whack over the long term. This would be a sticky proposal and would require support from unions, but; if your company said to you "take this $250,000 package in lieu of a pension and benefits and come back on Monday for your $30/hr job" -OR- "we might be bankrupt by the end of the month, here's a pamphlet to explain bankruptcy procedures, where YOU stand as a creditor and a contact number for the Government office to help you fight for your pension"; what would you be inclined to do?

 

Here's a really sensitive point...

 

- Reduce healthcare costs. Instead of pulling back on Canadian production, move more production into Canada. Rid yourself of ultra-high healthcare premiums and let your tax paying Canadian employees utilize the public healthcare they already have access to. A generous benefit package with drugs, life insurance, STD/LTD would eat up just a fraction of the savings over an all encompassing US healthcare benfit plan.

 

The ideal "bailout" solution?

 

See what Frank Stronach could do with a couple hundred billion. A non-union Canadian manufacturer from parts to finished product. A simple lineup under one brand...

Magna 100 - A sub-compact design, 2-door hatch in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $10K

Magna 101 - (Same as above in right-hand drive. Hey, it works for Shimano!)

Magna 200 - A compact design, 2-door hatch, 4-door sedan in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $15K

Magna 300 - A mid-size design, 2-door, 4-door, 4-door wagon in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $20K

Magna 400 - A mid-large tourning design, 2-door, 4-door in 2 trim designs (sport/luxery) Under $30K

Magna 500 - A full size design, 4-door in 2 trim designs (sport/luxery) Under $40K

... now I'm getting carried away with this....

 

I would much rather see Canadian bailout funds directed at risky new venture with a possibilty of success than a band-aid on a festering wound that may never heal.

 

-Brian

[JohnF]

I miss the hand crank windows they're hard to find these days. I'm with ya on this one!

 

Wouldn't be surprised if power windows are cheaper to manufacture than rollups nowadays.

 

The tooling may be disappearing for manual stuff. The parts and component suppliers are now geared up for electronics. Door thickness might be an issue as well. With smaller exteriors and the demand for space inside the cabin the walls had to get thinner and the side airbag uses a lot of that space within. Some of the car guys here would know better about that.

 

My point is that going back to a 1970 production standard isn't necessarily cost effective today. We're a disposable society now.

 

JF

[JohnF]

See what Frank Stronach could do with a couple hundred billion. A non-union Canadian manufacturer from parts to finished product. A simple lineup under one brand...

Magna 100 - A sub-compact design, 2-door hatch in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $10K

Magna 101 - (Same as above in right-hand drive. Hey, it works for Shimano!)

Magna 200 - A compact design, 2-door hatch, 4-door sedan in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $15K

Magna 300 - A mid-size design, 2-door, 4-door, 4-door wagon in 3 trim designs (base/sport/luxery) Under $20K

Magna 400 - A mid-large tourning design, 2-door, 4-door in 2 trim designs (sport/luxery) Under $30K

Magna 500 - A full size design, 4-door in 2 trim designs (sport/luxery) Under $40K

... now I'm getting carried away with this....

 

I was told a few years ago of a decently engineered car built with magna components that could be marketed very inexpensively and still be profitable, but as much (read all) of Magna's business was with the N.A. auto industry it would have been suicidal to bring it to the competitive market.

 

Perhaps I've just answered my own question - can even Magna afford to manufacture an inexpensive model(s) without the massive infrastructure of the auto industry to support it's various manufacturing facilities? There's strength in numbers and cost effectiveness in volume. Cutting back on the variety of components designed and built by all the industry suppliers would preclude anything resembling cost effectiveness in their respective processes.

 

Somewhere in this whole mess there has to be a viable balance between production efficiency and cost effectiveness. The problem is it may not pander to those who wear their vehicle like an emblem of their success in the world, or at least how they want to be perceived.

 

JF

[hammercarp]

Somewhere in this whole mess there has to be a viable balance between production efficiency and cost effectiveness. The problem is it may not pander to those who wear their vehicle like an emblem of their success in the world, or at least how they want to be perceived.

 

The problem is we are a consumer society. You are what you buy. So it isn't some people, it is the vast majority.

[John]

Haven't you learned anything. Your so called free market got us into this mess.

The second thing is the "free market" is just as much crap as Marx's communist utopia. It does not work. I have personal real world experience with this and believe a "free market" sucks. I dug this up from a post I made on another forum.

Have any of you experienced or seen a "free market"? I have and the results were bad for everybody. I work in the sign business and have been involved with portable signs. Those are the tempory signs used by businesses to advertise generally on the side of the road. They are supposed to be used for a short period of time and then taken down. Here is what happened here.These type of signs were a new thing here about fifteen years ago. One company, the one I am currently working for was one of the first to offer them to businesses. After awhile the city of Hamilton tried to regulate then by passing some by-laws. The guy I currently work for took the city to court and got an injunction against the by-law. The city did not want to spend any more money on this and so there were no laws governing the use of these signs. It was now a defacto free market. In a few years this was the result.

The company I work for basically quit doing portables in Hamilton because prices spiralled downward and it was no longer profitable. They never made back any of the money they spent on lawyers.

There were so many portable signs out there that they were virtually useless as advertising media. They were so crowded together that nobody could read them. The merchants only used them because they were cheap so everyone had one out and they didn't want to lose their spot. Everybody that could slap some boards together had a portable sign business and plenty went out of business. They left their junkie signs sitting there. Some merchants bought their own portable signs. These deteriorated and became derelics because there was no maintainance done on them. Property managers and landlords either banned their use or let their tenants do what ever they wanted. Certain sections of the city really started to look like crap. The result of a completely free market was bad news for everyone. The city looked like hell. Merchants spent money on advertising that provided no return. Portable sign companies had large numbers of signs that made no profit and they could not get rid of them do to the money they had tied up in their inventory of signs and letters. The company that I work for ( the one that created the free market) did business in other cities and towns that had by-laws regulating portable signs. And guess what? The business thrived in a regulated market and has greatly expanded into other aspects of the sign and graphic business. The city of Hamilton, where I live has passed new sign by-laws and the mess is being cleaned up. The sign business I work for is doing more business in the city. At a profit. This is the real world that I have worked in for the last ten years. So much for "free markets" I say you can keep em. Laissez faire business died a hundred years ago and I hope it stays buried.

 

I experience free markets every day of the week. Although it is tough, we find new ways to stay in business. Thinking outside the box is a much overused terminology these days, BUT, it has enabled us to stay in the game when our much large competition has "taken their toys" and gone home! We have dramatically changed the way in which we do business. We have customers that our competition don't want to do business with, we manage them differently. We have areas where we do business where we have had to address new and different, (read cheaper and more efficient), ways to get our product to their market. We are supplying products that 10 perhaps even 5 years ago, we wouldn't have even dreamed of tackling. We have 1/3 of the employees that our competition had, before they pulled out.

Edited December 11, 2008 by John

[tonyb]

Gov't bailouts are rediculous in my opinion, regardless of industry...but hey, it's just my opinion.

 

Ran across this picture and it's a perfect fit for this thread...

 

 

Too funny!

(and I own a Ford! haha)

Edited December 11, 2008 by tonyb

[The Urban Fisherman]

I grew up with little, to no money at times, and a father who spent the beginning of my teenage years in and out of hospital. I started a minnow business @ 12, got a part time job @ 15, paid my OWN way through college, worked 65+ hours a week for a pathetic paycheck in Toronto while supporting a fiance in university and a new-born. Now I'm going on 27 and am finally starting to get to the point where I don't have to worry so much about money....I'm not by any means making a ton of cash, but with continued hard work and dedication to a great employer, someday I might be able to afford that new pimped out ride - and you you bet your I'll be buying it.

 

Just for the record - it's going to be a Toyota Tundra with ALL the bells and whistles...

[BITEME]

BRING MANUFACTURING BACK TO NORTH AMERICA

STOP DUMPING ASIAN CRAP HERE( AND IM NOT TALKING CARS)

MAKE THE BIG BOX RIPOFF CENTERS SELL 50% NORTH AMERICAN GOODS

WE ARE IN A SHITHOLE BECAUSE WE(GOVERNMENT) DIDNT PUT THE HAMMER DOWN

IM TIRED OF BUYING CRAP ( ITS VERY HARD TO FIND GOOD QUALITY NORTH AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN GOODS)

STOP OUTSOURCING OUT OF THE COUNTRY what the heck DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN

AS FOR THE BIG 3 NOW YOUR FEELING THE BURN!!!!!

 

THE LEVY IS GONNA BREAK FASTEN YOUR SEATBELTS!!!!

[OhioFisherman]

Wouldn't be surprised if power windows are cheaper to manufacture than rollups nowadays

 

LOL haven`t had one apart in a long time. mix in an electric motor, bigger alternator to power all the options, bigger battery, wiring, switches, connectors and 70 bucks or so an hour dealers labor charges once stuff starts breaking out of warranty?

 

Like a drug, get people hooked and they "gotta have it " ?

 

Then there is the tool to break the window in an emergency, 2 buck garage sale hammer is to complicated?

[Bernie]

Manual wind windows were pretty simple. It would cost more for power when you add in the switches and wiring.

 

Then there is the tool to break the window in an emergency, 2 buck garage sale hammer is to complicated?

 

Ever try to break a car window with a hammer? Seen guys swing a sledge and not break them. Takes a fine point to break them on a consistent basis. Learned that in auto extraction during my volunteer firefighter days.

[LeXXington]

Lexx has got them.. and no damn electric locks either! Makes it harder to break in with a coat hanger! LOL

 

Not sure what your speaking about.. I always roll down my windows on the launch ramp.

 

 

Trying to get a basic truck was almost impossible, I wanted a basic crew cab truck that had roll up windows, no power locks blah blah blah.. less to break in my books

 

The dealer always tried to oh here is a truck with this that and the other option... upgrade from a CD player to a MP3 player that is $600.00

duhhh no wonder you go out of business.

 

I am old school, I wanted a basic pickup truck like they had before the big SUV soccer Mom thing came about. Figure they should be able to build a strong reliable one that myself and all the working trades can get.

 

There first thought that something was wrong would have been if they can't make money on a basic truck then they should change the way its made. Options should have been a bonus not a way to make it worthwhile.

 

 

When I was buying my car, they were saying the could not even compete with the foreign competiontion on small cars, it was a loss leader covered by the big high option ones duuuuuhhhh there is your sign your doing it wrong.

 

Ok how too fix.

 

image is everything no matter how much money the goverment is going to give you. The big 3 have a image problem they have too fix asap.

 

Say big 3 you get

 

Gas gussler.

Expensive to own

low resale

 

1st. If the union keeps saying the employee is not the issue.. up all the warrenties higher than the competition and provide customer service better than ever.

 

2nd. If you can't make a very reliable Canada made car/truck and make money fire everyone (managment alike) and start again your doing something wrong..

 

3rd. dump all the brands that are not profitable. Union made or not dump it.

 

4th The hardest one too get !!!fair trade.. You want too sell your cars in NA then you should build a precentage here. No more car companies outside our NAFTA selling here but not taking the same on export.

 

 

Lexx -

[JohnF]

Somewhere in this whole mess there has to be a viable balance between production efficiency and cost effectiveness. The problem is it may not pander to those who wear their vehicle like an emblem of their success in the world, or at least how they want to be perceived.

 

The problem is we are a consumer society. You are what you buy. So it isn't some people, it is the vast majority.

 

No argument from me there. We have a Caddy.

 

Majority-R-Us.

 

JF

[BITEME]

Manual wind windows were pretty simple. It would cost more for power when you add in the switches and wiring.

 

Ever try to break a car window with a hammer? Seen guys swing a sledge and not break them. Takes a fine point to break them on a consistent basis. Learned that in auto extraction during my volunteer firefighter days.

 

 

 

Automatic Centerpunch from Princess Auto 5.00 to 7.00 dollars works everytime carry one in the vehicle always ya just never know

[lookinforwalleye]

Here is my take on it and I will be brief. If the big 3 as they are called want a bail out with public money I would suggest the first thing that should be done is to lock all the top executives of the big 3 in a room and introduce them to their boss I don`t know who that would be but someone who knows how to run a profitable business. The doors should be kept locked until they come up with a plan to create one automotive super company that can compete in the market place.

This of course would result in plant closings and lost jobs but the reality in todays market is that the domestics need a major overhaul too survive, governments thowing a few billion dollars at them will not solve their problems.

 

Combined the big three have almost 100 (give or take) models this is crazy there is just too much repetition, the last thing we the consumer need is 100 vehicles that loose money.

[OhioFisherman]

Ever try to break a car window with a hammer?

 

Although I have no clear recollection of the said incidents I believe so, again although my mother named my 3 brothers and I after Saints it was not our chosen profession.

 

But never from the inside under water. Jack handles worked well for a lot of things, again never had the desire to use one under water.

[misfish]

Trying to get a basic truck was almost impossible, I wanted a basic crew cab truck that had roll up windows, no power locks blah blah blah.. less to break in my books

Interesting. The truck I have was ordered just the way it is,Plain JANE. The guy I got it off of,had to wait 10 weeks for it,but he got what he wanted.

 

Ever try to break a car window with a hammer? Seen guys swing a sledge and not break them. Takes a fine point to break them on a consistent basis. Learned that in auto extraction during my volunteer firefighter days.

 

Bernie

I too was a VF. That little punch was a amazing. I also remember getting a shove from my chief at a car fire. I was standing infront of the car(older model) I said what the ,,,,,. Never knew the front bumpers on them older cars had gas shocks in them. Take the knees right off of ya.

 

 

Combined the big three have almost 100 (give or take) models this is crazy there is just too much repetition, the last thing we the consumer need is 100 vehicles that loose money.

 

You nailed it.

[Stoty]

What about COD?

Cars-on-demand.

Instead of firing 1200-1500 cars per night out.....why not have a custom ordering system, and only produce whats being ordered.

Sorry, but cars are not like toilet paper...you dont need a one one after each use.

 

Also another idea.....STOP over-paying your employees!!

$30+/hr to screw on a cap? give me a break!

[Carp]

With all joking aside

 

Speak your mind.

 

 

Theres got to be a simpler way.

 

Have we become this lazy we cant even roll down a simple window? Even use a key, to unlock our doors?

 

And ya,ll wonder why you all pay what you do, for the new rides.

 

 

When was the last time anyone got up off the sofa and walk to the T.V. to change the channel.

Yeah, we're all guilty of being lazy at one time or another.

 

If it means cheaper vehicles, I would settle for manual locks, windows, mirrors, etc.

[charlesn]

Auto door locks and auto ignition are safety features. Some ladies (and maybe men too) feel safer with them.

 

The keys locked in the truck with the engine running while at a launch ramp happened to me at a tournament and luckily due to the less than tight tolerances of the vehicle, a friend was able to pry the door open enough to jam a stick down and press the power door locks. Not sure what I woulda done if that wasn't an option.

 

Also, this used to happen to me a tonne (or so it seemed) when I had manual windows on my GMC Sierra. Sitting there in the left lane, someone pulls up on the right side rolls down their window and starts asking for directions or whatever. Couldn't reach over and undo the window with my seltbelt on so I had to resort to pseudo sign language that looked like I was an out of work Mime or something. Not a huge deal, but a pain when I could've simply helped a fellow traveler out if I had power windows.

 

I will never get another vehicle without power windows or door locks.

[misfish]

Also, this used to happen to me a tonne (or so it seemed) when I had manual windows on my GMC Sierra. Sitting there in the left lane, someone pulls up on the right side rolls down their window and starts asking for directions or whatever. Couldn't reach over and undo the window with my seltbelt on so I had to resort to pseudo sign language that looked like I was an out of work Mime or something. Not a huge deal, but a pain when I could've simply helped a fellow traveler out if I had power windows.

 

Man, did I get a good laugh out of that one Chuck.

 

I just open my drivers door,step out on the rocker panel,raise my head over the roof(opps that maybe a problem for you ) And yell over to them, what they need to know. Yep call me a redneck

 

Edited December 11, 2008 by misfish

[danc]

They all end up in the junk yard 15 years down the road anyways. Awesome when they're new, but junk a few years down the road. An incredible waste of our intelligence and our resources.

[hammercarp]

They all end up in the junk yard 15 years down the road anyways. Awesome when they're new, but junk a few years down the road. An incredible waste of our intelligence and our resources.

Blasphemy! They'll get you for dissing the sacred cow of north america.