Home Electrical Question

[jimmer]

I know this is a stretch without seeing the wiring, but thought by throwing it out there, something might click.

I have an outdoor flood light that has been there for over 30 years. I just recently replaced the bulb and it was working fine until the other day. I checked the bulb in another socket and it worked, so I thought it was the fixture, which I replaced and it still didn't work. Next, I replaced the light switch and it still doesn't work. Any tips or ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim

[ch312]

So you replaced the entire flood light along with the switch and the breaker/fuse is on, but the light still doesn't work?

 

I'd start by using a circuit tester or voltmeter to see if you're getting power to the switch and if so, test to see if it's making it to the light or not. I'm going to guess rodents damaging the wiring as the light worked for so many years and suddenly there is apparently no power going to the light.

[BillM]

Use a multimetre to figure out if you're getting power to the fixture when the switch is flipped?

[OhioFisherman]

I am just guessing, but I doubt that only one light has it's own fuse - circuit breaker, electrical outlets nearby working?

[Terry]

I would think it is a connection problem. At an outlet or light near by that feeds it You need to turn the breaker off and see what else turns off th n start checking if they feed that light

A multimeter would find the problem pretty quick

[jimmer]

The trick is finding which circuit it is on without being able to see the light go out when shutting the breaker off. There is power going to the switch (never mind how I know that), I now shut the whole house off when dealing with that switch which is a double one, but each switch seems to be on a different circuit. I thought about rodent damage, but the length of wire from switch to fixture is like 6 feet, but probably the problem. Hate to have to open up a wall to get at it.

Multimetre at the fixture is the next step.

Thanks,

[Terry]

Outlets or lights near by should be on the same circuit

On mine the outside lights and an outlet outside are all on the same circuit along with outlets on the outside wall in the dining room right near the outside lights

[cheaptackle]

On the outside chance that the exterior lights and outlets are on the same circuit I'd look to see if a GFI outlet was installed and maybe tripped. This would mean power came from the panel to the outlet before going to the switch, then to the light. It's not really normal but whose to say what's been done over the years. Without some pictures or actually being there it's hard to diagnose. The wire being disturbed by animals between the switch and light is a good possibility IF the wire is accessible to such a disturbance. The good thing here is once you find the problem you'll have much better insight as to how your house is wired. And if you do have to change out chewed wire to the light, use bx (armored) so they don't chew it again!

 

Michael

[ketchenany]

I think cheap tackle has it, most outside fixtures are on a GFI circuit. Weather protected . . .

 

Let us know what you find. I had hell of a problem with a GFI and I'm not an electrical guy!

[jimmer]

I checked the outside GFI, which was replaced last year and seems to be separate and used all the time.. I'm wondering if it is connected with the GFI in the washroom which is old and is fairly close.

I will let everyone know what I find.

[cheaptackle]

Washroom GFI, if done right, should be on it's own circuit. Tell me about the switch controlling the outside light - is the black and white wires attached to the switch OR are there 2 white wires in a wire nut with two black wires attached to the switch?

 

Michael

[jimmer]

Two white wires in a wire nut and the two black wires go to the switch.

[cheaptackle]

OK that means that the power is most likely coming directly to the switch from another device (outlet etc) or the panel rather than a junction box. What we need to determine is where the fault is. Let's see if we have power to the switch first.

With the power OFF (breaker if known for sure or whole house) remove the wire nut and untwist the white wires. Disconnect and remove switch. Make sure all 4 wires are spread well apart. Turn power on. Using multimeter in 200VAC range, test one black and white, changing but always one black and one white until you get a read between 110-120 volts. This identifies which pair are power coming in and that they are hot/good. If no reading then you have no power coming in. If there are no other devices affected by this breaker then the problem is between the panel and the light switch. IF other devices are on this breaker and working, the problem is between the last device working and the switch. If you have power then move on to the next.

So let's test the wire to the fixture now.

Next, with the power off again, remove the light fixture.

Lightly twist the black and white wires in the fixture together. At the switch ensure you've untwisted the white wires and disconnected the blacks. Using the ohmmeter function on the multimeter or the continuity tester (usually beeps on a digital) touch the probes to one black and one white, changing but always one black and one white. Note which ones give continuity or beep, they should be the two not identified as being hot. Untwist the wires at the fixture and repeat. When you cease getting results on one pair then the wire to the fixture is good. Retwist wires at fixture to verify, then untwist. You have now verified which wires feed the fixture and that they are good.

One of these two tests should fail - meaning no power coming in or no power from switch to fixture. If both pass, hook it all up (power off of course) power up and check the wires in the fixture box. If this fails when the other two both pass together - y'all gotta bad switch, which can happen with new ones though rare.

I'll be in/near coboconk over the turkey weekend working for one of my other customers. PM me before then by a couple of days and I might be able to drop by if you haven't cured it by then. The foregoing should give you what you need to know though.

 

Michael

 

Michael

Edited September 22, 2017 by cheaptackle

[jimmer]

Thanks Michael: I will see if I can work through this. And thanks for the offer, but my neighbour is an electrical contractor, I just hate to bother him until I can't fix things myself.

My wife would rather me call him first.

[DRIFTER_016]

Outlets or lights near by should be on the same circuit

On mine the outside lights and an outlet outside are all on the same circuit along with outlets on the outside wall in the dining room right near the outside lights

 

If the OP is set up similarly he should check the outside outlets as one is likely a GFCI outlet and maybe tripped.

[Big Cliff]

OK that means that the power is most likely coming directly to the switch from another device (outlet etc) or the panel rather than a junction box. What we need to determine is where the fault is. Let's see if we have power to the switch first.

With the power OFF (breaker if known for sure or whole house) remove the wire nut and untwist the white wires. Disconnect and remove switch. Make sure all 4 wires are spread well apart. Turn power on. Using multimeter in 200VAC range, test one black and white, changing but always one black and one white until you get a read between 110-120 volts. This identifies which pair are power coming in and that they are hot/good. If no reading then you have no power coming in. If there are no other devices affected by this breaker then the problem is between the panel and the light switch. IF other devices are on this breaker and working, the problem is between the last device working and the switch. If you have power then move on to the next.

So let's test the wire to the fixture now.

Next, with the power off again, remove the light fixture.

Lightly twist the black and white wires in the fixture together. At the switch ensure you've untwisted the white wires and disconnected the blacks. Using the ohmmeter function on the multimeter or the continuity tester (usually beeps on a digital) touch the probes to one black and one white, changing but always one black and one white. Note which ones give continuity or beep, they should be the two not identified as being hot. Untwist the wires at the fixture and repeat. When you cease getting results on one pair then the wire to the fixture is good. Retwist wires at fixture to verify, then untwist. You have now verified which wires feed the fixture and that they are good.

One of these two tests should fail - meaning no power coming in or no power from switch to fixture. If both pass, hook it all up (power off of course) power up and check the wires in the fixture box. If this fails when the other two both pass together - y'all gotta bad switch, which can happen with new ones though rare.

I'll be in/near coboconk over the turkey weekend working for one of my other customers. PM me before then by a couple of days and I might be able to drop by if you haven't cured it by then. The foregoing should give you what you need to know though.

 

Michael

 

Michael

Extremely well written and detailed!

[Big Cliff]

Thanks Michael: I will see if I can work through this. And thanks for the offer, but my neighbour is an electrical contractor, I just hate to bother him until I can't fix things myself.

My wife would rather me call him first.

I'm no electrician but I do have a really good multi meter and would be happy to bring it by and try to help you solve the problem, shouldn't be that hard if we follow Michael's directions step by step. (you can even hold the notes if you want LOL)

 

Phone me if you want, I can probably drop by today or tomorrow.

 

705-928-8899

Edited September 23, 2017 by Big Cliff

[Mister G]

Pay your electric bill and they will turn your power back on................LOL

[cheaptackle]

Thanks Cliff for the compliment! I do try, just like you buddy.

 

Michael

[jimmer]

Hey Cliff: I don't check this site over the weekend. Sorry about that and thanks for the offer. I was going to try reading it tonight after work.

I have checked all my GFI's and they are working. I will touch base with you Cliff if I can't figure it out.

The part I don't look forward to is trying to get into the attic if it's determined that it's the power wire.

 

LOL, I wish it was that I didn't pay the hydro bill.

 

I really appreciate everyone reaching out to help me. I hope I can repay it in the future.

Edited September 25, 2017 by jimmer

[OhioFisherman]

jimmer, they have some area schools closed here today because of the heat wave, I can imagine going into an attic might feel like crawling into a roaster today!

[Mister G]

jimmer, they have some area schools closed here today because of the heat wave, I can imagine going into an attic might feel like crawling into a roaster today!

Ya, I can imagine that the snowflake children wouldn't last long in the heat, cold, wind or even rain.......LOL

[OhioFisherman]

Ya, I can imagine that the snowflake children wouldn't last long in the heat, cold, wind or even rain.......LOL

 

LOL, I can't recall nearly as many reasons for cancelling school when I was young! Almost October, and it's been the hottest week of the " summer ".

[Fisherman]

Waiting for Wednesday, supposed to cool off. Been doing outside work until 10am, after that back inside. I can handle the cold much easier than this outdoor sauna. Put in central air last year, should have done that years ago.

[jimmer]

Did some more investigating last night and found that there is no power and it might actually be hooked up to the GFI on the opposite side of the house. (someone was right) The next step is to pull that and have a look. I had changed that GFI last year though.

Mike's suggestions were very helpful, but still not comfortable with a multimetre. Couldn't get a steady reading on the 200acv setting.

I just hooked up a fixture directly to the wires in the switch box to determine no power, but determined the wire between the switch and fixture was good using ohm reading.