Bailout fails

[BUSTER]

[outllaw]

its only a commercial break.

[BUSTER]

its only a commercial break.

?????

[Marko]

I was watching this on tv last night and this guy in senate was speaking and he said that Toyota and GM sold the same amount of cars last year, where Toyota posted 17 Million dollars profit whilte GM lost close to 30 millions.

[TennesseeGuy]

Billions, not millions.

[holdfast]

I was watching this on tv last night and this guy in senate was speaking and he said that Toyota and GM sold the same amount of cars last year, where Toyota posted 17 Million dollars profit whilte GM lost close to 30 millions.

 

Heard the same thing, one reason, High cost of employee salaries and other employee benefits thanks to the Unions. My question still is, should we give then a stimulation package? lets face it, 3 of four parties want to do it now, enough to bring down a Government.

[jediangler]

I understand that employees of Toyota here make the same as the employees of the Old Three. Can't pin this one on the unions.

Talk is that some of the money that was supposed to go to the U.S. banks will be used for the bailout instead.

[pigeonfisher]

After hours of closed-doors talks, which separately included company, creditor and worker representatives, the impasse came when the United Auto Workers would not agree to align their labor costs with those of workers foreign-owned U.S. plants by the end of 2009, said Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell and others.

 

"We were about three words away from a deal," said Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., the lead negotiator for Republicans. The question now: What next?

 

A GM official wasn't ready to give up hope. "We'll see what tomorrow brings," said spokesman Greg Martin. "Let's wait and see."

[cram]

They need to fail, it seems.

 

Imagine you ran a business and it was worth 400k but on the verge of bankruptcy because of future obligations......the government is willing to give you 1.5 million to help your business if you'll cut your own salary by 8 percent....would you do it? If so, you get to keep 92% of your salary (which is a great one). If not, you face unemployment.

 

That's basically what's happened......they need to fail, i guess.

Edited December 12, 2008 by cram

[bicephalic]

The sound byte they keep using on 680 news in Toronto this morning is "if every GM employee worked for free for the next year, it would cover 11 DAYS of operating costs - our wages aren't the problem".

 

Realistically, if these giants fail, what happens to the rest of the economy? Can the US or Canada really afford for that many jobs to be gone in one shot? And then the dealerships, and parts suppliers, and gas companies that will follow? It's unlikely that they can allow them to die without sentencing both countries to a long rut.

 

I'm on board with the 'just a commercial break' thought...I have to be - this effects too many friends, family, and clients directly - which in turn effects me.

[jediangler]

Doesn't matter what the employees get paid, they have to build some quality cars. This has all happened before with the motorcycle industry. Starting at the end of the 60's the Japanese were making quality bikes while the British were not. By the end of the 70's there were no British bike manufacturers left. But BMW survived by continuing to make the highest quality bikes out there. Of course H-D survived, but they were the only U.S. manufacturer and were taken over by their employees. Maybe one U.S. auto maker is all there is room for. If that's the case, they shouldn't get any bailout money, let the strongest survive.

[Anton Kanagasuntheri]

It could be gouging unions, cooperate mismanagement, poor forecasting etc. etc BUT, I think a lot is to be said about the quality of the product you make. I mean lets face it, the only reason why people even bother buying their cars is because its dirt cheap! Lease it for 3 years and dump it. In this case there is no long term sustainability. Its almost like just riding the waves, unfortunately now it seems the waves are calm and they are caught up the creek without any paddles!

[John]

Billions, not millions.

 

What's a few zero's between friend's Connie...........

[Clampet]

Let them eat cake.

The employees need to realign their skills.

Let's face it, working on a assembly line probably requires the skillset of a 3 year old, with the paycheck of a CEO.

[The Urban Fisherman]

Thanks god I drive a Nissan.

[hammercarp]

Let them eat cake.

The employees need to realign their skills.

Let's face it, working on a assembly line probably requires the skillset of a 3 year old, with the paycheck of a CEO.

Nonsense. They in fact make 1/600th of what their CEO's make. We cannot afford to have the big three disappear all at once. The shock to the economy and the resulting job losses would be something that the north american economy would not recover from in our life time. There would be no rebirth of the car industry here. Car companies from across the planet would simply jump in to take over the market. This is make it or break it time.

[Rizzo]

Let's face it, working on a assembly line probably requires the skillset of a 3 year old, with the paycheck of a CEO

 

here's hoping there are no OFC assembly line workers

[Clampet]

Nonsense. They in fact make 1/600th of what their CEO's make...

 

Then the CEO paychecks are part of the problem!

[Rich]

Let them eat cake.

The employees need to realign their skills.

Let's face it, working on a assembly line probably requires the skillset of a 3 year old, with the paycheck of a CEO.

 

Yeah, cuz obviously the CEO's are pure geniuses!

[carp-starter]

The sound byte they keep using on 680 news in Toronto this morning is "if every GM employee worked for free for the next year, it would cover 11 DAYS of operating costs - our wages aren't the problem".

 

Realistically, if these giants fail, what happens to the rest of the economy? Can the US or Canada really afford for that many jobs to be gone in one shot? And then the dealerships, and parts suppliers, and gas companies that will follow? It's unlikely that they can allow them to die without sentencing both countries to a long rut.

 

I'm on board with the 'just a commercial break' thought...I have to be - this effects too many friends, family, and clients directly - which in turn effects me.

 

I am not on board with the "just a commercial break". I do not have any friends, family and clients directly who are affected - which in turn does not affect me.

 

This commercial break will not be the first one to help GM (Canada) and the employees. We have had many. I think the Ontario government gave GM about 600 million about a year ago. And guess what happened - GM laid off employees within 1 or 2 months later.

 

Not too long ago, Oshawa Mayor John Gray stated "Probably by 2012 they'll [GM] have the products that are really going to help them get through to the new economy, as far as [the] automotive [industry] is concerned. But we've got to get them there first."

 

I think that Mayor John Gray does not have all his marbles. My question to the mayor is - what will GM do until 2012 - keep making the same vehicles that they have been building? What GM is making, is not selling - http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/11/07/gmquarter.html.

 

So, now the question is - what will the workers be doing? If GM until 2012, keeps on making vehicles that are not selling, I suppose the workers would be very happy to keep on making crap cars - they do not care as long as they work. The workers have said many times that the vehicles they build are of the highest quality in North America. This may be correct according to the employees. But let me define what a "crap car" is.

 

"If a vehicle is meant to be sold but cannot be sold, then the vehicle is a crap car". Who cares if the quality is the best in the universe - the car must be sold.

 

Or will the workers do something else. It might be a lot cheaper to have GM close the plants until they are ready by 2012.

 

I do not know what GM and the employes will do until 2012 but I do know what I will be doing. I will be paying through my nose - GM and the employees - for the years of 2009, 2010 and 2011.

 

I never had any children. Why is it that many think that I should support BIG BABIES.

 

And when we finally get to the year 2012, the consummer will say - "GM, GM WHO".

 

Remember what Mayor John Gray had stated - "probably by 2012" (above). I do not like that word - PROBABLY. What it means to me - maybe yes, maybe no. And if it is NO, then I guess we will have another set of bailouts.

 

At some point we have to accept our losses and just bury GM.

 

Read my lips - "I am tired supporting healthy and able individuals".

 

I will say it again -

 

 

carp-starter

[Rich]

All I have to say is.. I have friends at my work who were working in factories locally. Got laid off, can't find work. They were making really good money, 30/hr or more doing what they did. Industry crumbled, now they work with me for next to minimum wage.

 

They whine.. but overall, they adapted and overcame it. Less money isn't a death sentence.

[Marko]

MIllions or billions whats the difference.....just couple of zeroes lol.

Jokes aside the situation looks fairly bleak for auto industry in canada.

Maybe the outlook would be a bit better if GM made car that you can rely on for couple of year and not worry about changing parts after months of use.

[ricoboxing]

once Obama takes power, there is no way he is not gonna bail out the people that voted him in. so yes, it's just a commercial break.

[Roy]

It's what happens when you steal from your employer.

 

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[irishfield]

Thanks for that Roy.. best part of the thread !