Heat Pump

[16 Footer]

I had a 1.5 ton Mitsubishi mini-split heat pump installed in May. It is the high efficiency unit and very quite. Works on a 20 amp circuit. So far works great heating and cooling the place. Don't need propane heating with all the tanks, venting and furnace. The specs say it will provide heat down to -30C, I have a wood stove as backup. Warranty is 10 years parts and labour. The only maintenance is cleaning the filter screen in the wall unit and checking the outside unit for any leaves on the back grill.

[glen]

I’m going to get one too.  I need the cooling more than the heating.  

[lew]

My neighbor installed one last year and is really happy with it.

[BITEME]

I’m really not for or against when it’s really howling here it spends a lot of time in defrost it just can’t handle the environment well where we are I don’t use it to cool and I would not recommend one to any body 

[16 Footer]

My unit cools well and I have to turn it off because it is too cool inside.

[smitty55]

From what I've heard from neighbours who've had them installed -30° is really pushing it, -20° is far more realistic

[BITEME]

I’m having a propane furnace put in before the winter this year and yes I do run a wood burner back up

absolutely can’t rely on the heat pump

 

 

[16 Footer]

My heat pump installer says everyone is getting a Mitsubishi heat pump. They are now the best. The other heat pump manufactures had problems in the past and did not work well. 

[BITEME]

I’ve got a Lennox same same 10 year warranty blah blah blah all run on the exact same concept different parts maybe maybe not but one thing that is not changeable are the laws of thermodynamics and you can only strip so much heat out of -20 and below air add in wind sheer and there is not a lot left it’s like going nowhere in neutral

[Terry]

I agree however I don’t think wind sheer , I assume you mean wind chill   It doesn’t affect things like rads and pumps   It affects people’s exposured skin and the cold wind will find every draft in your house and make it  harder to keep your house warm making a heat pump or furnace work harder 

 

[16 Footer]

My place has good insulation which is very important for any house heating / cooling system to work efficiently. Global warming has made our winters warmer and "if" my HP output drops after -20C I am not overly concern. I do have a wood stove as backup with dry hardwood. 

[BITEME]

I do have a sheer issue as well as chill issue living on the coast it just happens that predominately it runs 90 degrees to my pump which is not helpful and a normal winter day is 25kts + with sustained days above 50 of course the nor’easter that are always lurking and plentiful

yes bad choice of words possibly but at the root they are hyped just a little to much

in hindsight site should have just gone with propane right from the start to back the wood burner up.

cheers

Peter

 

 

[Fisherman]

5 hours ago, BITEME said:

I do have a sheer issue as well as chill issue living on the coast it just happens that predominately it runs 90 degrees to my pump which is not helpful and a normal winter day is 25kts + with sustained days above 50 of course the nor’easter that are always lurking and plentiful

yes bad choice of words possibly but at the root they are hyped just a little to much

in hindsight site should have just gone with propane right from the start to back the wood burner up.

cheers

Peter

 

 

Any possibility of putting a deflector to increase wind exposure?

[BITEME]

46 minutes ago, Fisherman said:

Any possibility of putting a deflector to increase wind exposure?

I’m working on a deck on that side and I’m going to box it in somewhat I will be able to close it quite a bit and still get the push and pull I need for heat transfer

its in the plan

[smitty55]

I was curious as to their lifespan and it seems like it could be anywhere from 10-20 years depending on several factors.
https://www.hvac.com/expert-advice/when-to-replace-your-heat-pump/
My York AC unit is 25 years old now and the only thing I've had to do was replace the starting capacitor a few weeks back, cost me $20 and 5 minutes.
My propane furnace was installed in 2013 and apart from cleaning and tune ups every 4 years I've only had to get the ventor motor replaced last year. It doesn't get tons of use as I do have a wood stove. Fan is on 24/7 and I replace the filters quite often. One thing I learned was not to use those super high filtration Filtrete filters, they make the fan work so much harder, you can really hear the difference when I went to merv8 filters.

[16 Footer]

8 hours ago, smitty55 said:

I was curious as to their lifespan and it seems like it could be anywhere from 10-20 years depending on several factors.
https://www.hvac.com/expert-advice/when-to-replace-your-heat-pump/
My York AC unit is 25 years old now and the only thing I've had to do was replace the starting capacitor a few weeks back, cost me $20 and 5 minutes.
My propane furnace was installed in 2013 and apart from cleaning and tune ups every 4 years I've only had to get the ventor motor replaced last year. It doesn't get tons of use as I do have a wood stove. Fan is on 24/7 and I replace the filters quite often. One thing I learned was not to use those super high filtration Filtrete filters, they make the fan work so much harder, you can really hear the difference when I went to merv8 filters.

You are pushing your luck with a 25 year old inefficient AC unit. Look at replacing it with a newer AC or heat pump before it breaks down when you really need it. With a good quality heat pump you will be less reliant on the propane furnace for heat. Call in a local heating / cooling expert to evaluate your house.    

[smitty55]

6 hours ago, 16 Footer said:

You are pushing your luck with a 25 year old inefficient AC unit. Look at replacing it with a newer AC or heat pump before it breaks down when you really need it. With a good quality heat pump you will be less reliant on the propane furnace for heat. Call in a local heating / cooling expert to evaluate your house.    

Not a chance, my hydro bill goes up around $30/mo in the summer, not a big deal. Why spend all that money? On cool nights I open up all the window in the house so it's often later in the day before the A/C even kicks in and I have it set at 23.5°. Even with energy savings the cost of a new unit would take at least a decade to pay for it. In the winter I only run the furnace every so often to warm up the basement as the wood stove does a fine job heating the main floor. Temps below -20°C are common here in the winter so that heat pump wouldn't do a proper job. I also have 8 4x6 south facing windows that make a huge difference in the winter and I can put the blinds down in the summer. I also use propane for my hot water and kitchen range and I'm not giving that up.

[CrowMan]

I spent over 40 years in HVAC as a mechanical engineer, I can tell you this..

Based on current pricing of hydro and propane (also natural gas) here in eastern Ontario, the "sweet spot" to maximize efficiency of a heat pump is when the outside temperature is between +5 and -10c. Warmer than the +5c, and the amount of electricity required to produce heat is greater than the cost of the propane required at those temperatures. Colder than -10c, and again propane is less expensive to burn to maintain room temperature in your home, than using electricity to try and extract heat from the atmosphere. 

Good news is... a lot of the time between October and April, the temperature in Ontario is between +5 and -10c.

A heat pump is simply an A/C unit with a reversing valve...most of them are about 21 SEER efficiency, so savings to be had cooling in summer too.

The other big savings with a new furnace is with the blower motor...the newer and better furnaces use ECM (brushless) variable-speed motors, which can save you up to $400 a year in electricity.

The most cost effective and efficient system for an Ontario climate is a propane or natural gas hi-efficiency ECM furnace with an integrated  heat pump combined with a smart thermostat to automatically switch between the two based on outside ambient temperature and current hydro rates.

If it's equipment you eventually have to replace anyway...calculate the energy savings vs the interest/investment return on the capital cost of the equipment and make a factual financial decision.

Edited July 13 by CrowMan

[smitty55]

You nailed it CrowMan. My propane furnace has that variable speed fan and it runs 24/7. I went over two years with the exact same price for propane and even now it's only 5¢ more than 3 years back

[Big Cliff]

On 3/4/2025 at 5:16 PM, Terry said:

 

 

On 7/8/2025 at 6:59 AM, 16 Footer said:

I had a 1.5 ton Mitsubishi mini-split heat pump installed in May. It is the high efficiency unit and very quite. Works on a 20 amp circuit. So far works great heating and cooling the place. Don't need propane heating with all the tanks, venting and furnace. The specs say it will provide heat down to -30C, I have a wood stove as backup. Warranty is 10 years parts and labour. The only maintenance is cleaning the filter screen in the wall unit and checking the outside unit for any leaves on the back grill.

That looks like it would be limited to one area of the house rather than using a furnace duct system. Am I understanding it correctly?

Edited July 20 by Big Cliff

[CrowMan]

On 7/20/2025 at 8:28 AM, Big Cliff said:

 

That looks like it would be limited to one area of the house rather than using a furnace duct system. Am I understanding it correctly?

Yes, the head or cassettes of Ductless Mini-Split Systems (the top photo) are generally situated high on the wall to condition the area of a single room. However, one outdoor compressor unit (bottom photo) can supply several heads/cassettes...so several rooms.

The Ductless Systems are great if you have no ductwork. My cottage is a post and beam design...open concept with cathedral ceilings. Duct work would ruin the look. Heating is radiant in-floor powered by a propane boiler, supplemented by a wood stove. With in-floor heating your feet always toasty warm, the air doesn't get dry like with forced air, and it's extremely cost effective as its more efficient to heat a liquid rather than air.

We previously never had A/C, but a few years back the summers got so hot that we decided we needed to do something beyond window shaker units. We ended up installing a Split Ductless heat pump system with 2 outdoor compressors and a total of 6 heads to provide very efficient cooling in summer, and heat on milder winter days. With separate heads you can control the temperature of individual rooms. For instance, in summer we prefer the master bedroom cooler than the rest of the house. As a bonus, the heat pumps save us about $500 a winter in propane.

However, if you have a forced air furnace and ductwork in your home, then I would recommend an integrated heat pump. As I stated, it's essentially the same configuration as a central air conditioning unit...the same outside compressor/condenser,  and same A-coil (evaporator) sitting in the plenum on top of your furnace, that cools, and in this case also heats the air.

Edited July 25 by CrowMan

[16 Footer]

On 7/20/2025 at 8:28 AM, Big Cliff said:

That looks like it would be limited to one area of the house rather than using a furnace duct system. Am I understanding it correctly?

My place is 1200 sq ft, open concept and well insulated. The single head unit is cooling the place well. If I need cooling or heating in one of the bedrooms just open the door for a while. If your place has many rooms then a multi head unit is probably needed. 

[Big Cliff]

I am seriously thinking of getting one, my ac unit is 25 years old so I expect  it would probably need to be replaced in the not too distant future anyway. My furnace is propane and only 8 years old and serviced every year,  just replaced the fan motor under warranty last fall. My place is about 1400 square ft. and I am told I would need a 2 ton system. Cost installed about $6500.00 and apparently I would get a $2500.00 rebate. My annual propane cost is roughly $1600.00 a year but I am told that a heat pump should drop that by over 50%+. My hydro usage averages about $100.00/month winter and summer. Any thoughts?

[CrowMan]

1 hour ago, Big Cliff said:

I am seriously thinking of getting one, my ac unit is 25 years old so I expect  it would probably need to be replaced in the not too distant future anyway. My furnace is propane and only 8 years old and serviced every year,  just replaced the fan motor under warranty last fall. My place is about 1400 square ft. and I am told I would need a 2 ton system. Cost installed about $6500.00 and apparently I would get a $2500.00 rebate. My annual propane cost is roughly $1600.00 a year but I am told that a heat pump should drop that by over 50%+. My hydro usage averages about $100.00/month winter and summer. Any thoughts?

Sounds like it would pay for itself in about 6 years. The electrical savings with a more efficient A/C in summer (especially a summer like this one) will offset a lot of the cost of running the heat pump in winter. Considering the age of your A/C (and the new regulations for refrigerant), I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Every year that goes by you're losing $600 ($800 propane savings minus $200 extra hydro) that you'll never get back. If you keep that $4000 in the bank/invested, you'd be hard pressed to get an annual return of $600 on it.

If you simply replace the A/C (like for like) you'd have a difficult time finding an installed unit for under $4000 anyway. The gov't rebate makes the deal a "no brainer".

I don't see a downside.

ps. make sure your sales/installer does a "heat loss/heat gain analysis" of your house...includes total interior volume, amount of ceiling and wall insulation, type of basement, size and direction of windows, etc, etc. to properly size the equipment.

Edited August 9 by CrowMan

[smitty55]

Personally I wouldn't be so quick to believe any numbers told to me by a salesman whose main interest is to sell a product for his employer. My AC unit is close to that age and except for a $20 start capacitor back in June it's been fine for a 2500 sq.ft. home. I wouldn't ever consider getting rid of a very dependable unit unless it actually failed as for all I know I could easily get another ten years or more of use. Don't forget that they don't make appliances to last like they used to and the life expectancy of those heat pumps can be as low as 10 years. In your case every extra year of use you get from your AC unit is money you don't have to spend on a new one. Plus your furnace at 8 years old will be an HE unit so why spend more money needlessly.
At the very least I would insist one him proving those numbers to you with links to sites that prove you will save that much. Plus how much extra hydro will that pump use? All this to supposedly save $50 a month in propane??? No thanks.