Boat trim hydraulics failing in the cold

[AKRISONER]

Hey guys, this has been a consistent problem with my boat since I’ve got it. 

my trim has always been a little slow when it’s cold outside, but then today while trying to winterize and having pulled the boat out of the water into the sub zero air, the trim totally fails.

anyone have any experience with this? Is there a way to purge air out of the system and add additional hydraulic fluid? Is there an airlock in the system that’s causing the problem? Is the pump itself probably toast, and if so are they easily replaced?

 

help?

[vance]

 Most motors have a relief valve to lower the motor if the pump fails, usually it is on the side of the pump depending on the motor.

[OhioFisherman]

(3) Yamaha Trim & Tilt Trouble Shooting Fix - YouTube

Might help?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AKRISONER]

8 hours ago, vance said:

 Most motors have a relief valve to lower the motor if the pump fails, usually it is on the side of the pump depending on the motor.

I was able to use that valve to get it to move around with help...I’m concerned about allowing air into the system though too. It’s not ideal that the pump is struggling so much I worry that Id burn it up.

[aplumma]

You can check the oil level to see if it needs more if it does it means you have a leak if it is low. The pump itself may be damaged but first verify the fluid levels since it is cheaper/ easier. If it is the pump then it can be replaced on a scale of 1-10 it is a 6 for most people. You should consult a manuel to see if it is something you are comfortable doing. 

Art

[DanD]

Being that this only happens when its cold; I would check that the fluid in there is of the proper viscosity. To thick an oil will become even thicker when it's cold. The pump will have a hard time pressurizing and circulating it. If unsure I'd change it out to the recommended fluid. The system is self bleeding and as long as you do not let the reservoir run empty during the filling and running of the system you'll be fine. 

[Chris J]

11 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

Hey guys, this has been a consistent problem with my boat since I’ve got it. 

my trim has always been a little slow when it’s cold outside, but then today while trying to winterize and having pulled the boat out of the water into the sub zero air, the trim totally fails.

anyone have any experience with this? Is there a way to purge air out of the system and add additional hydraulic fluid? Is there an airlock in the system that’s causing the problem? Is the pump itself probably toast, and if so are they easily replaced?

 

help?

IS is your tilt or trim?   Does the motor leak down when tilted upwards?  My Yamaha trim is always sluggish in minus temps, tilt ram always works fine.   Any leaks around seals on trim/tilt rams?  Any fluid in the reservoir?    If you want to know how to change seals, tilt rams o rings, drain and refill system and purge air I can provide you details how to do the job.   If no leaks and motor holds position and you don't experience these issues in warm weather all is probably fine.  Or you can change an expensive pump as well.

[AKRISONER]

Hey guys, 

so a quick update. I’m not sure what things are “called” but I figured out where the leak is, as there was hydraulic fluid dripping off of this part (this is not my outboard but it’s the same part)

im guessing there is a gasket there that has failed? Or could be worse?

[aplumma]

That is called the ram seal it may be replaceable it depends on the manufacturer. If you can find the parts blowout and it is listed as a seperate part then you will not need to replace the whole ram assy. You need to read the instructions on the process because it may involve tools that you may not have. 

Art 

[Chris J]

1 hour ago, AKRISONER said:

Hey guys, 

so a quick update. I’m not sure what things are “called” but I figured out where the leak is, as there was hydraulic fluid dripping off of this part (this is not my outboard but it’s the same part)

im guessing there is a gasket there that has failed? Or could be worse?

LIke other guy said its a seal there.  They are end caps that hold fluid and the rams in.  I would wait till spring and warmer weather, refill the system and run it up and down a bunch of times and recheck for leaks.   I've found they leak in extreme cold but in warmer weather no leaks.  I assume your out of fluid as it won't lift and you found telltale signs.  Grab some tilt and trim fluid and refill any brand will work.  They will still operate with a leak, yours sounds low or empty.

If you want to change seals and o rings all parts/schematics can be found on     boats.net.   Maybe tilt rams have nicks or spots on them tearing the seals so you may want to replace them as well.   THe actual job isn't hard but the end caps can be a pain if no spanner wrench, you will damage your caps using punch and hammer but it will work to remove the caps.    

[Old Ironmaker]

I don't know if this will help if the issue is only fluid and weather related. We experienced hydraulic problems after installing a new system on the top of one of our Blast Furnaces in Hamilton On. years ago. The cylinders were moving but crawling. The engineers went to a different fluid that resists cold and it gets cold 300 feet above the bay on Lake Ontario in winter. I believe it is called Askeral. 

[Old Man]

Could be a relay acting up in the cold. Should be one each, one for up, one for down.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Old Man

[AKRISONER]

Interesting Iron Askeral is a transformer fluid with good insulating properties...wild

 

Chris are you saying if i go and get a spanner, you can easily swap out the ram seals once the caps are opened up?

Also, i dont seem to see an obvious fill point for a hydraulic fluid reservoir? anyone care to point out what I am looking at?

[smitty55]

There are several aviation based hydraulic fluids that are specified for cold weather operation but you need to know if the seals are compatible. But a good synthetic like from Amsoil would likely solve your issue with cold temps.

 

Cheers

[Chris J]

15 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

Interesting Iron Askeral is a transformer fluid with good insulating properties...wild

 

Chris are you saying if i go and get a spanner, you can easily swap out the ram seals once the caps are opened up?

Also, i dont seem to see an obvious fill point for a hydraulic fluid reservoir? anyone care to point out what I am looking at?

You don't need the spanner wrench to do the job.  You can use other "tools" to do the work but your end caps may get a little damage.   I've seen hammer and punch used but will damage top of caps but nothing to cause leaks, split ring pliers will also work or even making a homeade spanner style wrench to fit around trim ram into cap holes.  My last spanner wrench I bought was a proto and the pins on wrench broke off trying to complete the job for myself.

I had extra caps so I just used the hammer and punch and replaced the caps anyways.   Once caps are opened, yes easy to change out the seals.  The reservoir is located on right side of the tilt n trim unit.  There is a fill cap on it, tilt motor to top using the motor itself or by good old fashioned muscle, engage bracket to prevent motor dropping down, slowly open cap you may hear air escaping.  I use small plastic syringe and fill, manually lift motor up and down by hand and refill if needed.  You can actuate the tilt and trim motor but each cycle give it time to settle air bubbles it creates by going up and down.  

[Chris J]

You want dust seal # 15 , trim down seal # 17  and #19 oring will fix your leak likely.    

But myself if I'm going in,  I do all seals and O rings.

So 17,18,1920,21.  If you want to replace rams and caps buy the # 15  and you do it all and not worry about it again while you own the boat.

 

The reservoir you ware looking for is 22 the cap to fill is 23.

I use tilt n trim fluid but you can substitute something if you want, ATF will even work.

Hope it helps abit.  Those late 90's Yamaha motors were some of the best ever made, my 97 still runs like a champ.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Chris J

[dave524]

22 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

Interesting Iron Askeral is a transformer fluid with good insulating properties...wild

 

 

is that the stuff with PCB's and Dioxin in it, there was a couple of drums of that in a locked room where I worked with a sign, they couldn't get rid of it , NOBODY would take it !

[Old Ironmaker]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:18 PM, vance said:

 Most motors have a relief valve to lower the motor if the pump fails, usually it is on the side of the pump depending on the motor.

On my 115 HP Mariner and most Mercs the relief valve for tilt/trim is on the side of the engine and it is a large flat head screw. I carry a snub nose wide flat head screw driver in the boat. So far never had to use it , knock on wood, but my buddy needed it to tilt up his 90 Mariner at the ramp. No way that boat was coming out and towed without tilt. 

[AKRISONER]

Looks like I’ve got some work to do come spring! Since I’m the kinda person to do things right the first time I will probably replace everything that I possibly can within reason. As long as replacing those seals is as simple as opening the ram caps and pulling the old seals and simply putting in the new ones, then that’s exactly what I am going to do. I’m going to try and look to see if there are any YouTube videos of people filling their hydraulic fluid as well just to make sure I don’t screw anything up. One thing I did do was turn the relief valve (at least that’s what I thought it was) in order to get the motor up and down to finish winterizing. One thing I noticed is that it seemed like the valve itself was either stripped or just continued to turn? I should get a photo of it to show you guys what i am talking about. When I turned it it made an air pressure relief noise and allowed me to move the motor. I then noticed that I could hear it leaking still so I turned it a bit more and it seemed to seal up. I’m not exactly sure what’s going on there aside from the fact that maybe the cap is sitting on a gasket and just spinning kind of like a bottle cap.

[Old Ironmaker]

5 hours ago, dave524 said:

is that the stuff with PCB's and Dioxin in it, there was a couple of drums of that in a locked room where I worked with a sign, they couldn't get rid of it , NOBODY would take it !

Yes that be the stuff Dave. Now I remember what the stuff was, I'm talking 21 years ago. Nothing you would want to put in your boat. I remember before I left for greener pastures in January of 2000 they were trying to determine how to replace it and get rid of it. That was a huge amount of hazardous fluid in service. We created a in house Haz Mat team specifically trained to deal with a leak before E Blast Furnace was blown down for a major reline in Dec. 99'. Luckily we never had a leak. We were told to deal with it as if it was Nuclear waste. 

This is a perfect example of advise on the Interweb where someone (me) has good intentions and a terrible suggestion. I doubt one can purchase it anyway. Unless you buy it from a former KGB agent in a clandestine location on a cold dark rainy night under a bridge. 

[Mad Scientist]

Since the problem occurs in the cold, could it be water in the system that freezes when the temperature is below 0C?

 

[Chris J]

On 11/11/2019 at 6:29 PM, AKRISONER said:

Looks like I’ve got some work to do come spring! Since I’m the kinda person to do things right the first time I will probably replace everything that I possibly can within reason. As long as replacing those seals is as simple as opening the ram caps and pulling the old seals and simply putting in the new ones, then that’s exactly what I am going to do. I’m going to try and look to see if there are any YouTube videos of people filling their hydraulic fluid as well just to make sure I don’t screw anything up. One thing I did do was turn the relief valve (at least that’s what I thought it was) in order to get the motor up and down to finish winterizing. One thing I noticed is that it seemed like the valve itself was either stripped or just continued to turn? I should get a photo of it to show you guys what i am talking about. When I turned it it made an air pressure relief noise and allowed me to move the motor. I then noticed that I could hear it leaking still so I turned it a bit more and it seemed to seal up. I’m not exactly sure what’s going on there aside from the fact that maybe the cap is sitting on a gasket and just spinning kind of like a bottle cap.

It's not hard job to replace seals, fairly easy.    Filling quite simple as well, lower front of boat as low as possible, tilt motor by hand or with switch and raise till its on bracket.  Remove cap, fill with oil, work motor up and down and repeat.  If using trim hydraulics to raise wait abotu15 mins before each cycle and before opening cap as air will escape and bubble created in HYD fluid from operating it with the switch.  Manually lifting and lowering reduces that.  The manual bypass needs to be opened all the way and closed all the way to do this.