Looking for some Concrete advice on a major issue.

[LeXXington]

Sometimes you just have to reach out and see if there are any experts on the board.

 

Back ground.

 

I needed to put a backyard concrete patio in, I knew where the concrete pad was to be located had bad drainage So I had the company that was doing the work come in and inspect in the spring. 6-8 " of water (clay under the grass)

 

One of the suggestion was to put 5-6" in the center and put 10" around the perimeter. The 10" on the outside would act as a curb and deflect water.

 

Along with changing the drainage this should solve the problem.

 

The 10" came with an extra cost but I thought it would really help.

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Now the issue, company pouring the concrete did not get a copy of the actual contract or the details and poured a 6" pad all around (re-bar / granular /etc was installed)

 

They only dug down a tiny bit so the 6" is level with the yard not dug down.

 

Not what at all was in a signed contract, will not help the deflection of water.

 

If water gets where I know it will the concrete will heave,

 

They offered me a 1 year warranty on heaving. (I laughed)

 

I was thinking a 10 year on heaving, I clearly have the contract and could sue but the fix is to remove and redo this is a major head ache,

 

I have the hold back on 50% of the cost and won't release it.

 

If this was you any options or things I can do

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Shearer]

As the person who was paying did you not inspect the prep work?

Were you there when the concrete was being poured?

I had a concrete double drive put in many years ago. With contract in hand I inspected the area they dug out. It was supposed to be 14" deep. They only went down 8". I showed the operator of the back hoe the contract as he was getting ready to load the machine. He dug it all out as the contract stated. I think it's imperative that you check each part of the process otherwise some people will try and take the easy way out. I'd make them redo.

[LeXXington]

As the person who was paying did you not inspect the prep work?

Were you there when the concrete was being poured?

I had a concrete double drive put in many years ago. With contract in hand I inspected the area they dug out. It was supposed to be 14" deep. They only went down 8". I showed the operator of the back hoe the contract as he was getting ready to load the machine. He dug it all out as the contract stated. I think it's imperative that you check each part of the process otherwise some people will try and take the easy way out. I'd make them redo.

 

I kick myself daily on this, We paid a company to manage the install. The pad was only 14x28 and was completed in a day, I saw it later in the day after it was poured. I said rip and replace from the start.. Management company is looking for other options.

[dave524]

I had a 14 foot by 30 patio put in along the back of the house 2 years ago, never priced concrete but I like the look of this better and its been rock solid on clay.

 

http://permacon.ca/en/product-guide/landscaping/pavers/mondrianr-plus-80-pavers

[moxie]

Clear stone underneath it should be fine. Should float, no?

[Musky Plug]

I'm a little confused as to the background part.

 

- Your yard is clay?

 

- The centre of the pad was supposed to be 6" and the perimeter was to be 10"?

 

 

Generally when you pour a concrete bad there should be a base layer of 3/4" crushed stone, unless it was inspected by a soil engineer and deemed fit. If your backyard has a bad drainage issue that should've been addressed before the pouring of the pad to ensure no cracking or heaving. Also if you had a second company magaing the install IMO they should've been aware what was going on, and what needed to be done and making sure that the contract was being met that's why they were there?. I feel that they dropped the ball on this.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Musky Plug

[moxie]

Works already done so a re-do is just wasteful and who knows, it might be just fine. Tricky situation but for what its worth negotiate a second winter in writing ? Would that satisfy you?

 

You do after all still hold 50 points on the back end.

[LeXXington]

- Your yard is clay?

 

- The centre of the pad was supposed to be 6" and the perimeter was to be 10"?

 

 

Generally when you pour a concrete bad there should be a base layer of 3/4" crushed stone, unless it was inspected by a soil engineer and deemed fit. If your backyard has a bad drainage issue that should've been addressed before the pouring of the pad to ensure no cracking or heaving. Also if you had a second company magaing the install IMO they should've been aware what was going on, and what needed to be done and making sure that the contract was being met that's why they were there?. I feel that they dropped the ball on this.

 

The ground under the soil is all clay.. General area issue not specific to my back yard. When it rains I get pooling as in runs off.

The drainage is getting addressed but due to the actual building {walk out backyard} I can only raise it so far.. The 10" perimeter was to act as a curb and direct water away.

 

The centre of the pad was supposed to be 6" and the perimeter was to be 10" -- exactly and that's what the contract stated in writing.

 

Management company knows they dropped the ball and are on the wrong side of the contract. Getting slow details on it but the person managing them was on another project at the same time and thought it was all under control.

 

Such a PITA no easy fix,

[LeXXington]

Works already done so a re-do is just wasteful and who knows, it might be just fine. Tricky situation but for what its worth negotiate a second winter in writing ? Would that satisfy you?

 

You do after all still hold 50 points on the back end.

 

I think I am going to shoot for 5 year warranty. They came back offering 1 year against heaving. That means I take all the future risk and cost for there screw up. Rather take my 50% for when I redo it

[John Bacon]

 

I think I am going to shoot for 5 year warranty. They came back offering 1 year against heaving. That means I take all the future risk and cost for there screw up. Rather take my 50% for when I redo it

 

Are you paying the full amount? The work they completed was less than what they were contracted to perform.

 

Perhaps pay the remaining 50% in instalments over the 5 year life of the warranty. That way you have leverage if you need to have repairs done.

Edited June 10, 2017 by JohnBacon

[Freshtrax]

I would not pay period. Work preformed is not what was contracted.

[Old Ironmaker]

A long reply was just lost. I will give the Readers Digest edition. The winters we have coupled with Niagara Escarpment and Great Lakes clay is not conducive to concrete, otherwise known as chamenta growing up. My cousins, kid brothers and I have shoveled cement, stone and sand as soon as we were strong enough to lift a shovel that the handles were cut off to fit our height. No concrete in Ontario, even with a sand substrate no guaranteed can be given. If someone gives one they are full of it, especially over clay. I call Bee Ess. That's Bull phoo, simple as that. I have brick pavers here, no chamenta exept 1 small floating pad under a small shed. I could have saved a few thousand, prep, pour and finish in my sleep when I did some walkways years back and I was in chamenta shape.

[ketchenany]

d. I could have saved a few thousand, prep, pour and finish in my sleep when I did some walkways years back and I was in chamenta shape.

Are you now suffering from chamentia?

[Old Ironmaker]

Are you now suffering from chamentia?

That my dear friend is funny, I almost spit my caveve all over the screen. Good one pisano mio.

[ch312]

A long reply was just lost. I will give the Readers Digest edition. The winters we have coupled with Niagara Escarpment and Great Lakes clay is not conducive to concrete, otherwise known as chamenta growing up. My cousins, kid brothers and I have shoveled cement, stone and sand as soon as we were strong enough to lift a shovel that the handles were cut off to fit our height. No concrete in Ontario, even with a sand substrate no guaranteed can be given. If someone gives one they are full of it, especially over clay. I call Bee Ess. That's Bull phoo, simple as that. I have brick pavers here, no chamenta exept 1 small floating pad under a small shed. I could have saved a few thousand, prep, pour and finish in my sleep when I did some walkways years back and I was in chamenta shape.

 

Sorry, but you're incorrect in regards to guarantees. A properly prepared base along with proper drainage will result in a pad not heaving or settling for many years. Thing is, many "experts" are complete hacks and think their way is the right way or contractors who do know the proper way can't convince the customer to shell out extra money so they still do the job to get their money rather than walking away from the job so the concrete fails (cracks,settles, heaves, etc). As for straight sand, anyone who even suggests using such substrate as a base shouldn't be offering up any advice as it cannot achieve suitable compaction and is an extremely poor base. There's a reason nobody uses it.

 

 

 

To the OP, I am not clearly understanding what you thought you were getting. Was this to be a monolithic floating slab on grade with the perimeter 10" deep or a slab on grade with a 4" elevated curb around the perimeter to keep water off the pad? It sounds like you wanted a flat pad with a 10" deep perimeter, which is typically done for sheds and garages to support the load, not for addressing water issues. Pouring concrete 4" deeper around the perimeter will do nothing to stop ground water from getting under the pad and/or prevent heaving, that's the purpose of a proper base and drainage.

 

How deep did they excavate and what material did they use for a base? How was drainage addressed? Every situation can be remedied as long as you're willing to shell out the $$$.

[LeXXington]

 

 

4" deeper around the perimeter will do nothing to stop ground water from getting under the pad and/or prevent heaving, that's the purpose of a proper base and drainage.

Agreed the 10" at the side was just to act as a curb and push water away from the pad. If the water made it to the pad and buckled I would be "PO'ed" but accept it as a drainage issue.

 

My problem is with the 6" I lose the Curb appeal and I requested 10".. So if it buckles is that because it was 6" or because the drainage ;(

[Old Ironmaker]

I don't think anyone suggested a sand substrate. As far as spending to do it right a slab of 2" or 3" steel isn't going to heave or crack.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Old Ironmaker

[John Bacon]

I don't think anyone suggested a sand substrate. As far as spending to do it right a slab of 2" or 3" steel isn't going to heave or crack.

 

And only weighs 16 to 24 tons. What does a ton of steel go for these days?

Edited June 11, 2017 by JohnBacon

[Musky Plug]

 

Sorry, but you're incorrect in regards to guarantees. A properly prepared base along with proper drainage will result in a pad not heaving or settling for many years. Thing is, many "experts" are complete hacks and think their way is the right way or contractors who do know the proper way can't convince the customer to shell out extra money so they still do the job to get their money rather than walking away from the job so the concrete fails (cracks,settles, heaves, etc). As for straight sand, anyone who even suggests using such substrate as a base shouldn't be offering up any advice as it cannot achieve suitable compaction and is an extremely poor base. There's a reason nobody uses it.

 

 

 

To the OP, I am not clearly understanding what you thought you were getting. Was this to be a monolithic floating slab on grade with the perimeter 10" deep or a slab on grade with a 4" elevated curb around the perimeter to keep water off the pad? It sounds like you wanted a flat pad with a 10" deep perimeter, which is typically done for sheds and garages to support the load, not for addressing water issues. Pouring concrete 4" deeper around the perimeter will do nothing to stop ground water from getting under the pad and/or prevent heaving, that's the purpose of a proper base and drainage.

 

How deep did they excavate and what material did they use for a base? How was drainage addressed? Every situation can be remedied as long as you're willing to shell out the $$$.

 

 

 

I agree with the "expert" part. People usually get a quote from them and it's much cheaper then the proper way from someone who actually knows whats they're doing but it's too expensive so people go with the cheaper option. But Lexxington paid someone to cross all those T's and dot those I's and IMO they were really looking after him they would've told him to address the drainage issue before hand, and told him that the 10" curb wouldn't do much if anything to deflect water and put down the proper substrate material. And back in the day they generally did use sand for substrate because crushed stone was too expensive.

[Old Ironmaker]

And only weighs 16 to 24 tons. What does a ton of steel go for these days?

I didn't make my point well. How much do you want to spend to ensure no lifting etc? Steel weight is on average .92 lbs. per cubic inch. Calculate the weight based on the size of the plate or slab. About 600 bucks a ton dependant on grade not delivered.

[Old Ironmaker]

And back in the day they generally did use sand for substrate because crushed stone was too expensive.

And come to think about it they still do. Watch them pour concrete in Florida, you might not see a single stone. Same as making mortar in coastal area, they used the salt laden sand, no way they were importing sand when they are surrounded by it. After a few years it starts to fall out of the joints.

[Sinker]

Hmm...I've read some pretty interesting responses to this thread. Some people should just keep their mouth shut when they don't know what they are talking about.

 

I wouldn't pay, period. You didn't get what you asked for, and what you have isn't going to do what you wanted.

 

If I did a job and it wasn't done as per the contract, I would re do the job. Its as simple as that. I'd make the contractor come back and tear it up to be re done at his expense. Mistakes cost.

 

S.

[LeXXington]

I sent an e-mail asking for 5 year warranty oddly no response. I am sure they are checking with legal for options.

 

If they decide no. Then no Money.

 

Such a hassle you hire experts to work for you and they let you down.

[Old Ironmaker]

Man Sinker you can be harsh sometimes. I was taught if you don't have anything nice to say about someone shut your mouth.

[Old Ironmaker]

I apologize profusely, I typed sand when I meant to type stone. It was I. Don't pay me the balance owed.

 

You were very wise to hold back 1/2 LeXXington, not many contractors will take that deal. We contracted for 10% final, many just didn't pay because they knew we wouldn't take it much further and Home Depot couldn't be bothered to use their resources for 10% of the price. If a customer had a hold back of 50% you better believe 1 of us was on that job to supervise every day and the sales guy that signed that deal.

 

They dropped the ball big time. The ball is in your court now, they may just walk depending on what a tear out redo will be, especially if it will cost more than the 50% you hold. They have to calculate how big a hit to their reputation walking will cost them. If these guys are the "door to door" want a new driveway Sir? you probably will never see them again.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Old Ironmaker