Ontario to spend $7-billion on sweeping climate change plan

[Dutch01]

It's cold out.

 

Next they will say they are fighting global cooling.

That's right Glen, it's all made up. Don't worry about future generations choking on smog. It's their problem, not ours.

 

Notice I made no mention of global warming or climate change? Stop being taken in by the buzzwords and think. How long can we pour millions of tons of poisonous gases into the air before we die? A hundred years? 200 years? How does it get any less costly to do nothing now and clean up a bigger problem later?

[scuro2]

Electric cars powered by clean generation may have a cost, but it's not as high as the cost of maintaining the status quo.

That is the first highly intelligent thing I have read on this thread!

[scuro2]

Science is the same as religion. You personally observe what little evidence you can with your own eyes .... then you get the opinions of a bunch of other people (both living and dead) ..... then you make some assumptions about the data, run some tests, and draw a conclusion. Or in most cases, you just choose to believe what someone else is saying.

 

Science and faith are identical.

 

Evolution vs. creation .... climate change vs. no climate change .... what's beyond outer space .... is there life after death?

 

We. Don't. Know. We are incapable of knowing. We simply do not have enough data. So, we guess. People tend to have really strong convictions in these areas and spout on about how 97% of scientists say this, or that, or whatever. All we're doing is choosing to follow the beliefs of others. That's not necessarily bad, but we should recognize and admit that our convictions are based in faith, and not fact.

 

Its interesting that throughout history scientists have been wrong more than they have been right. Its also interesting that some of the greatest breakthroughs in astronomy, mathematics, geography, and medicine have come when a few individuals went against what everyone else believed was proven fact.

 

How would you feel if the government created a bill that said, "97% of theologians believe the end times apocalypse is coming in the next 75 years, so we are going to tax the people $7 billion to build anti-demon weapons".

 

That's the EXACT same thing as saying they'll tax the people to fight against global warming. Maybe demons are coming, maybe they aren't. Maybe global warming and climate change exists and will destroy the planet, maybe it won't.

 

Now, with all that said, I strongly believe that there are plenty of observable and measurable real-time environmental impacts from pollution. I support the government using legislation and tax payer money to reduce pollution, both at the individual and corporate levels. But don't tell me I have to heat my house with expensive electric heaters because your precious scientists think my gas furnace is killing the planet.

 

That is another incredibly well thought out bit of reasoning. Truth is a challenging thing to grasp. I'd buy everything you stated if you ended with the conclusion it is time to act but to get to where we need to go we need to do x instead of y. You didn't offer a solution.

[scuro2]

It's really sad how some Canadians are resisting to believe that they need change to their lifestyles and saying that Canadians aren't part of the problem. An easy solution would just be to not have kids, use up what's left of the natural resources and say good night to the world.

 

We say we don't need to be a leader in the solution because we aren't a big problem anyway, but how's this? Can we finally follow the big boys and at least try to destroy the planet a little slower?

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-07/china-approves-over-15-billion-of-green-debt-in-pollution-fight

 

To me it is more honest to say I'm totally selfish so deal with it, then to to not invest any thought or time into this and blow it all off as a hoax cause that's fun!

[dave524]

Electric cars powered by clean generation may have a cost, but it's not as high as the cost of maintaining the status quo.

 

I don't know about you, but at my age and in my little corner of the world the air and water is a lot better than it was in the sixties and seventies. I see the so called status quo as a marked improvement over the past 40 years. I'd rather drive my combustion engine to a free flowing river than my electric car to a reservoir. As I said , pick your poison.

[manitoubass2]

That is the first highly intelligent thing I have read on this thread!

I like how you snuck in that jab at yourself?

[Dutch01]

 

I don't know about you, but at my age and in my little corner of the world the air and water is a lot better than it was in the sixties and seventies. I see the so called status quo as a marked improvement over the past 40 years. I'd rather drive my combustion engine to a free flowing river than my electric car to a reservoir. As I said , pick your poison.

There is nothing wrong with this line of thinking if, as has been said above, you acknowledge that you are only thinking of yourself (a common trait in humans).

 

If you have children, or care at all about the future of the species' on this planet, then you cannot argue for the status quo.

[Dutch01]

I like how you snuck in that jab at yourself?

Lol ???

[scuro2]

I like how you snuck in that jab at yourself

 

...I would classify your cognitive skill of insight as being highly exceptional. Way beyond the norm!

Edited June 8, 2016 by scuro2

[Dara]

I remember back in the 60's when the solution to the pollution problem in Sudbury was to build a "Super Stack" to get the sulpher higher into the air where it could dissipate.

 

Then in the 80's when they stated the "Sulpher Abatement Project" which actually took pollutants out of the air.

 

New century we ended burning coal in our electric plants. In Ontario with solar, gas and wind

 

Some good moves, some not so good. But all cost a bunch of money.

 

Currently, we must make a move. I'm just not convinced that the current one is the right one.

I think we could do a lot more for a lot less money.

 

Smarter and more people need to get together and figure out a plan.

I just don't trust this bunch we have in Queens park and they are too alone on it

[Canuck]

I just walked by a group of families on Bay Street in TO protesting the Ontario government's pathetic lack of support for families with autistic kids. And Kathleen Wynne and her predecessors want us to spend billions and billions on top of the money they pi$$ed away already on more green energy and subsidies. And that after their criminal incompetence with the natural gas plant in oakville. And now natural gas is bad so more pi$$ing away more of OUR money for the good of our children and grandchildren?

 

I'll tell you what Kathleen, take 5% of what the liberal government has incompetently wasted and use it to find ongoing support for families with autistic kids and you will do far more good for those who REALLy need our support.

 

I have no personal interest or bias for the autism cause. Just a deep seated hate on for the Ontarion liberals who are leaning so close to communism it's not funny anymore.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Canuck

[scuro2]

[Headhunter]

I just walked by a group of families on Bay Street in TO protesting the Ontario government's pathetic lack of support for families with autistic kids. And Kathleen Wynne and her predecessors want us to spend billions and billions on top of the money they pi$$ed away already on more green energy and subsidies. And that after their criminal incompetence with the natural gas plant in oakville. And now natural gas is bad so more pi$$ing away more of OUR money for the good of our children and grandchildren?

 

I'll tell you what Kathleen, take 5% of what the liberal government has incompetently wasted and use it to find ongoing support for families with autistic kids and you will do far more good for those who REALLy need our support.

 

I have no personal interest or bias for the autism cause. Just a deep seated hate on for the Ontarion liberals who are leaning so close to communism it's not funny anymore.

Exactly my sentiments. $14k rebate to some downtown T.O. person who buys an electric car. I don't see how/why I should have to pay for their driving decision. How can we have $14k to give to someone who just dropped $50k+ on an electric car, and not fund those kids who fall into the Autism spectrum?

How large of a government agency will they have to build to administer this cap and trade system? How much of the money generated by the program will be eaten up by salaries, infrastructure, benefits etc... of those "administrating" the system?

Governments have a fantastic record of value and efficiency.

And to add, those who live in the north will be bearing a higher cost then those in the south, in this system.

HH

[rufus]

Manitoba thanks you.

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/manitoba-will-benefit-fromontarios-climate-policy-382111891.html

 

"Manitoba will soon see its first wave of climate-change refugees. People and industry will move, not because of rising sea levels or expanding deserts, but because of spiralling energy costs and soaring taxes."

[Dutch01]

For you frugal fellows concerned about cost:

 

http://www.oecd.org/environment/the-economic-consequences-of-outdoor-air-pollution-9789264257474-en.htm

 

This just released OECD study estimates the annual cost of air pollution at 6-9 million deaths and $2.6 trillion.

 

EDIT: My apologies, something came up and I had to hit post before I finished my sentence - that is the projected cost by 2060.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Dutch01

[rufus]

Ontario taxpayers are not shouldering the $2.6 trillion dollar cost. They are however paying highly for a mostly symbolic reduction gesture.

 

For you frugal fellows concerned about cost:

http://www.oecd.org/environment/the-economic-consequences-of-outdoor-air-pollution-9789264257474-en.htm

This just released OECD study estimates the annual cost of air pollution at 6-9 million deaths and $2.6 trillion.

[Canuck]

Ontario taxpayers are not shouldering the $2.6 trillion dollar cost. They are however paying highly for a mostly symbolic reduction gesture.

 

Really? How many in Ontario and what is the cost here. Fearmongering with lame liberal analysts.

[lifeisfun]

Really? How many in Ontario and what is the cost here. Fearmongering with lame liberal analysts.

 

Not to mention that is worldwide estimate is over 44 years.

Spending on idiotic programs to feel good will end like this:

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/12/02/ontario-consumers-likely-paying-billions-extra-for-hydro-one-decisions-auditor-general.html

In mean time people in Ontario can't find family doctors and waiting long times for surgery.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lifeisfun

[Dutch01]

 

Not to mention that is worldwide estimate is over 44 years.

Spending on idiotic programs to feel good will end like this:

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/12/02/ontario-consumers-likely-paying-billions-extra-for-hydro-one-decisions-auditor-general.html

In mean time people in Ontario can't find family doctors and waiting long times for surgery.

So it's okay to do nothing and let 6-9 million people per year die, because it will be 44 years from now, and because you hate Wynne?

 

It's a good thing you don't run the government, it seems you're under the mistaken impression that this is an either/or scenario. There is enough money for all our needs if it is properly managed (which it currently is not).

 

Also, I find it interesting that you think we will be able to afford reduced wait times with millions more people needing treatment because we did nothing about air pollution. Can you explain the math on that one?

[Dutch01]

Manitoba thanks you.

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/manitoba-will-benefit-fromontarios-climate-policy-382111891.html

 

"Manitoba will soon see its first wave of climate-change refugees. People and industry will move, not because of rising sea levels or expanding deserts, but because of spiralling energy costs and soaring taxes."

Spiralling energy costs and soaring taxes are inevitable. In a world with an exponential population growth curve and finite resources, there is no scenario in which those things do not become a fact of life. Edited June 10, 2016 by Dutch01

[DRIFTER_016]

So it's okay to do nothing and let 6-9 million people per year die

 

 

YES!!!!

The planet is badly over populated as it is.

20 or 30 million a year would probably help better though.

A large reduction in the population will do much more than a few billion dollars to reduce global warming, green house gasses and pollution. Not to mention the strain on the oceans fish stocks.

[Dutch01]

 

YES!!!!

The planet is badly over populated as it is.

20 or 30 million a year would probably help better though.

A large reduction in the population will do much more than a few billion dollars to reduce global warming, green house gasses and pollution. Not to mention the strain on the oceans fish stocks.

I actually understand where you're coming from there. I'm just not that cynical. Yet.

[rufus]

Sure there is. Costs, taxes, and relative wealth are different all over the world. The world situation is not Ontario's situation so why deliberately create hardship in Ontario?

 

 

Spiralling energy costs and soaring taxes are inevitable. In a world with an exponential population growth curve and finite resources, there is no scenario in which those things do not become a fact of life.

[DRIFTER_016]

I actually understand where you're coming from there. I'm just not that cynical. Yet.

 

Give it time.

[manitoubass2]

Depopulation is actually a fairly popular idea.

 

Not saying I agree with it however.

 

Genocide still happens fairly regularily these days in certain places.

 

Its just not as important as a gorilla being shot these days.