Help the Troubled Credit River

[John Bacon]

There have been three strains for Atlantics stocked in Lake Ontario. The LeHavs have been stocked for about 30 years or so. The Sebago and Lac St. Jean strains have only recently started to be stocked in Lake Ontario.

 

The LeHavs are domesticated inbreds and stocking them is complete waste of time. It is still too early to tell how well the Sebago and Lac St. Jean strain will do in the lake. I am not sure if any of them are old enought to return to the rivers yet.

The servival rate of the new strains in the hatcheries has been much better than the LeHavs. Only a small percentage of the LeHav eggs received by the hatchery actually survive long enough to ever be stocked. Ringwood had the exact opposite experience with the Lac St. Jean strain of Atlantic salmon. Only a small percentage of the Lac St. Jean fish died; the majority survived long enought to be stocked. From what I hear, the Sebago strain is even better.

 

Over the next few years we should start to see if the new strains also have better survival in the wild.

[landry]

Epic post Craig Richie.

Nailed it.

It is so obvious I can't believe there is any room for debate.

[solopaddler]

 

Then why not just spend the money directly ON habitat rehabilitation, and stop wasting it on raising and stocking fish that only seem to exist on paper? There's no benefit to creating false expectations.

 

 

 

There will be even less money for any kind of fisheries management efforts when this one doesn't produce the results that have been promised. Corporate donors (like that Australian winery) won't appreciate being told they're "bringing back the salmon" when, in fact, there is virtually no chance of that ever really happening.

 

 

 

No offense, but I have been hearing that load of crap since they started stocking Atlantics in 1985. No, success doesn't happen overnight. But it shouldn't take 30 years either.

 

OMNR began stocking coho salmon into the Credit River (>100,000 fish) in spring 1968. By fall 1969, they had large runs (3,000+) in the Credit and Humber Rivers. That didn't take 30 years to see any results. It tpook 18 months.

 

OMNR started stocking rainbows into the Ganaraska in large numbers (100,000 fish/yr) in the early 1970s. By the late 1970s, they had 10,000+ fish going over Corbett Dam each spring. By the early '80s, they were over 15,000 fish. That didn't take 30 years to see any results. It took less than six years.

 

OMNR stocked their first chinook salmon into Bronte Creek in 1974 (100,000 fish). By 1978, Bronte Creek was choked with adult chinooks every fall. That didn't take 30 years to see any results. It took three years to see large returns of jacks, and only another 12 months to see big returns of adults.

 

 

 

Consider it this way ...

 

If we began stocking 500,000 chinook/yr into the Credit River, within three to four years you will see enormous runs of adult chinook. No one doubts this for a second.

 

If we began stocking 500,000 rainbows/yr into any river, within 18 months you will see catchable fish and within three years you will have massive runs of fish. No one doubts this either.

 

If we stocked 500,000 browns (I wish!!) into the Credit or Humber, you would be walking on the things within two years.

 

Yet for years we have been stocking 500,000 Atlantics into the Credit every spring, and we have maybe 30 fish per year (and this year, apparently just two grilse) to show for it?

 

Look man, I am patient. But even I have my limits.

 

 

Hi Craig, agree with all of your comments. Just curious what your thoughts are on precisely why atlantics haven't caught on when every other salmonid stocked has? Is it really as simple as the incorrect strain of fish or is there a deeper underlying reason?

 

We should talk when you have a few minutes.

 

Cheers

[craigdritchie]

No idea Mike, since most other programs have worked out just fine as you note. Does anyone here remember the kokanee program of the late 1960s and very early 1970s? MNR stocked kokanee (small landlocked sockeye salmon) into Georgian Bay streams. The fish survived, and for a few years GB rivers like the Beaver were full of little, bright red,12-inch sockeyes. That was around the same time they began experiementing with pink salmon in Hudson Bay tributaries ( !! ) ... which led to them accidentally getting into Lake Superior. They failed in Husdon's Bay, but as we all know, pink salmon have established a large, wild population in Superior that exists to this day.

 

JohnBacon is right in his comment that stocking the LeHav strain of Atlantic salmon is a complete waste of time. But that being the case, why has OMNR stuck with them for 30 years?? Heads should roll for that.

 

MNR knows full well that Atlantic salmon are no longer suited to survive in Lake Ontario tributaries. In the 1990s, MNR performed several years worth of detailed experiments aimed to determine survival rates for Atlantic salmon fry that were stocked in various eastern Lake Ontario tributary streams. The studies found three things.

 

1. Atlantic survival was basically zero in streams with lots of silt, and with wood as their primary form of cover (i.e. more than 90% of available habitat in Lake Ontario tributaries).

2. Atlantic salmon survival was basically zero in any habitats where rainbow trout were also present.

3. Even in ideal, rock and gravel habitats with no rainbow trout present, survival rates were still minimal due to severe predation.

 

The biologists determined that unlike rainbows, brook trout, brown trout and Pacific salmon, juvenile Atlantic salmon did not hide on the bottom of deep pools or under in-stream logs and undercut banks. Instead, they tended to sit right out in the open in shallow riffles, where they were subsequently eaten by virtually everything that lives in and along a creek - birds, other fish, water snakes, raccoons, you name it. Even in what the biologists considered to be ideal habitats, and where they did not face competition from rainbow trout, Atlantic salmon still amounted to little more than very expensive bird food.

 

This was all well documented by the late 1990s. So why is MNR still beating a dead horse? If it's a matter of stocking the wrong strain of fish, why would they not have made a change over 20 years ago when it was clear this one isn't working out?

 

Something smells.

 

Happy to talk with you any time, Mike. Give me a call on my cell at your convenience.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Craig_Ritchie

[solopaddler]

No idea Mike, since most other programs have worked out just fine as you note. Does anyone here remember the kokanee program of the late 1960s and very early 1970s? MNR stocked kokanee (small landlocked sockeye salmon) into Georgian Bay streams. The fish survived, and for a few years GB rivers like the Beaver were full of little, bright red,12-inch sockeyes. That was around the same time they began experiementing with pink salmon in Hudson Bay tributaries ( !! ) ... which led to them accidentally getting into Lake Superior. They failed in Husdon's Bay, but as we all know, pink salmon have established a large, wild population in Superior that exists to this day.

 

JohnBacon is right in his comment that stocking the LeHav strain of Atlantic salmon is a complete waste of time. But that being the case, why has OMNR stuck with them for 30 years?? Heads should roll for that.

 

MNR knows full well that Atlantic salmon are no longer suited to survive in Lake Ontario tributaries. In the 1990s, MNR performed several years worth of detailed experiments aimed to determine survival rates for Atlantic salmon fry that were stocked in various eastern Lake Ontario tributary streams. The studies found three things.

 

1. Atlantic survival was basically zero in streams with lots of silt, and with wood as their primary form of cover (i.e. more than 90% of available habitat in Lake Ontario tributaries).

2. Atlantic salmon survival was basically zero in any habitats where rainbow trout were also present.

3. Even in ideal, rock and gravel habitats with no rainbow trout present, survival rates were still minimal due to severe predation.

 

The biologists determined that unlike rainbows, brook trout, brown trout and Pacific salmon, juvenile Atlantic salmon did not hide on the bottom of deep pools or under in-stream logs and undercut banks. Instead, they tended to sit right out in the open in shallow riffles, where they were subsequently eaten by virtually everything that lives in and along a creek - birds, other fish, water snakes, raccoons, you name it. Even in what the biologists considered to be ideal habitats, and where they did not face competition from rainbow trout, Atlantic salmon still amounted to little more than very expensive bird food.

 

This was all well documented by the late 1990s. So why is MNR still beating a dead horse? If it's a matter of stocking the wrong strain of fish, why would they not have made a change over 20 years ago when it was clear this one isn't working out?

 

Something smells.

 

Happy to talk with you any time, Mike. Give me a call on my cell at your convenience.

 

I've been informed by someone else that stream temp's when the atlantics return in late summer are way too warm which makes total sense.

[FLEX ROD]

At this stage, 30 years of effort, yes its well past the point of giving it a chance, toss in the towel and let the Credit be the River it can be.

 

FLEX

[aniceguy]

Im sitting on the side lines just observing this, before I grow a set and post a three page answer that tells it like it is from the inside looking out

[FLEX ROD]

Please post away, should make for an interesting read.

 

FLEX

[SirCranksalot]

 

I've been informed by someone else that stream temp's when the atlantics return in late summer are way too warm which makes total sense.

In Atlantic Canada they run in early summer. I would have thought that Lake O salmon would do likewise.

[John Bacon]

In Atlantic Canada they run in early summer. I would have thought that Lake O salmon would do likewise.

 

Run times in salmonids can vary quite a bit within a species. E.g. in some places there is a spring run or Chinooks; steelhead often spawn in the fall.

 

There are three strains of Altantics that have been stocked in Ontario. The LeHavs have been hatchery bred for many generations may not run at the same times as their wild ancestors.

 

The Sebago and Lac St. Jean strains should be much closer to their wild ancestors. I am not sure when the salmon run in those locations; but I would expect water temperatures to affect the times too.

[John Bacon]

Here is some relevant info.

 

Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program

43 mins ·

spawn. There remains uncertainty about the rate of adult returns and the success of spawning."
- "The Atlantic salmon restoration program is now at the point where research and rehabilitation objectives converge. This is due to the fact that the key outstanding research priority is to understand the rate at which mature adults will return to spawn in streams."
Research and assessment continues to show juvenile Atlantic Salmon survive and thrive in the rivers, with a some bottleneck appearing at the smolt stage, mainly on the older life stages stocked - work is underway to mitigate the effect of that bottleneck. More information on our current state of knowledge is up at: http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=24

Monitoring/Assessment/Research | Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program

Restoring a native species that was extirpated (locally extinct) takes a long time, and the LOASRP was founded in 2006 with the expectation that it would take time and iterative learning to bring back a self-sustaining population of this famous fish. A series of benchmarks covering 20 years of resto…

BRINGBACKTHESALMON.CA

[chris_robinson]

Hello,

Thanks to John Bacon for sharing the link above to our FB post, as there has been some incorrect information about the Atlantic Salmon program and its history previously posted in this thread, most notably that MNRF’s research from the 1980s to early 2000s showed the rivers were not suitable for Atlantic Salmon. In fact, the opposite was found and reported in a 2003 review of the program. This review is what lead to the launch of full scale restoration as the next step, and the report’s specific conclusion on the subject was:

"Although limited resources have delayed progress relative to the schedule contained in the 1995 Atlantic salmon Restoration Plan, the program benchmarks specified for the first five years of the program have be met. Research since 1995 has demonstrated that stream habitats support survival of the early life-stages of Atlantic salmon and that mature adult Atlantic salmon return to streams to spawn. There remains uncertainty about the rate of adult returns and the success of spawning."

The report’s second conclusion (of seven) was:

"The Atlantic salmon restoration program is now at the point where research and rehabilitation objectives converge. This is due to the fact that the key outstanding research priority is to understand the rate at which mature adults will return to spawn in streams."

The reference for these is: Greig, L., B. Ritchie, L. Carl and C. A. Lewis. 2003. Potential and Strategy for Restoration of Atlantic Salmon in Lake Ontario: A Workshop Report. Prepared by ESSA Technologies Ltd., Toronto, ON. Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources, Lake Ontario Management Unit. Peterborough, ON. 39 pp.

In 2014, a further science review of the program was held and a report prepared – available here: http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=24 – that again showed well-above-threshold survival of juvenile Atlantic Salmon in the rivers. There appears to be a bottleneck for the older life stages stocked (fall fingerlings and yearlings) in the pre-smolt phase, related to rearing practices, and this was addressed beginning in 2014 to increase the role the older life stages play in returns; to date the youngest fish we stock are producing almost all of the adults.

More information on the program and its four components is available in this FAQ: http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=101

Fish production and stocking is only ¼ of the program’s activities, to date the habitat component has completed 189 coldwater stream restoration projects on five watersheds and each year through the program partners over 25,000 students get lessons on Lake Ontario and its fishes. Fish production and stocking get the fish into the rivers; habitat restoration continues to improve and protect habitat for the fish; education and outreach generates an engaged community of stewards for the watersheds; and research and assessment looks to understand how Atlantic Salmon behave in the modern Lake Ontario basin and feeds information back to the fish production/stocking and habitat components. From the 2014 science review and a subsequent management workshop, an updated Atlantic Salmon restoration strategy for 2016-2021 is being finished this fall.

With regard to the history of the Chinook program, what we currently have is the third iteration of a Chinook program – they failed in the 1870s and over 1916-33, and they were eventually successful in part because by the 1970s there was an empty niche for them. Even as late as 1977 though they were considered to have generated “negligible returns” (MacCrimmon, H.R. 1977. Animal, man and change: alien and exotic wildlife of Ontario. McClelland and Stewart, Toronto, ON. 160 pp.). A history of Great Lakes salmon and trout species and stocking is here: http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/254320.pdf

Rainbow Trout and Brown Trout have also had erratic histories over the last century plus; last winter MNRF opened public consultations on an operational stocking plan for Lake Ontario and provided further histories and background here: http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-External/displaynoticecontent.do?noticeId=MTIzODk2&statusId=MTg2Mzcw&language=en

This, along with MNRF’s annual Lake Ontario reports ( http://www.glfc.org/lakecom/loc/mgmt_unit/ ), also describes how Atlantic Salmon stocking is actually distributed and more information on the program. But it also discusses the problems with Lake Ontario’s Brown Trout fishery (the migratory/open water fish, not the upstream residents) and proposed two alternative stocking options to improve the fishery. In short, despite being the second most stocked species by weight (after Lake Trout), Brown Trout had catch rates barely above Atlantic Salmon. The proposed alternatives were to stock more heavily at fewer locations, or stock heavily in annually alternating locations.

False facts and a toxic atmosphere won’t help the west basin of Lake Ontario or the Credit River. Any mature discussion of opening the river up will have to address a number of issues, including how accepting anglers are going to be to reductions in Chinook stocking to balance an increase in natural reproduction. Any reduction may (or be likely to) have to exceed the Credit River’s current stocking allocation. Ontario and New York committed to a predator-prey balance in the 2013 Fish Community Objectives (http://www.ontario.ca/document/fish-community-objectives-lake-ontario ) – Obj. 2.4 is "Maintain predator/prey balance - maintain abundance of top predators (stocked and wild) in balance with available prey fish" and Obj. 2.1 is "Maintain the Chinook Salmon fishery – maintain Chinook Salmon as the top offshore pelagic predator supporting trophy recreational lake and tributary fisheries through stocking, accounting for natural reproduction." (emphasis mine)

That is under a status quo situation with alewife abundance, and we may not be in a status quo situation – the 2013 alewife year-class at least has failed ( http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lou2014hilights.pdf ) and Chinook are currently feeding off the 2012 record year-class. The 2014 alewife year-class will be reported on next winter, and we won’t know about the 2015 year-class until next summer. But for now all we know is they are feeding off a capital that may not be generating any interest.

MNRF has heard the concerns of west basin anglers and is already undertaking one major change to the Chinook Salmon egg collection and stocking program to move some of the longer-staging naturalized fish to the west end of the lake:
"The naturalized wild populations of Chinook Salmon that have developed in the north shore tributaries of Lake Ontario seem to exhibit a broad range of run diversity with some fish staging early in mid-summer and others staging later on in the fall. Since the early 1980’s, the source for all hatchery-raised Chinook Salmon for stocking into Ontario waters has been from returning fish collected in the Credit River at Streetsville Dam in early October. In an effort to expand run diversity, the MNRF will initiate a project in 2015 to collect Chinook Salmon gametes from two sources: 1) the naturalized wild population in the Ganaraska River and 2) the traditional stocked population in the Credit River. Other naturalized populations may also be considered as a source in the future. Fish reared from eggs from both sources will be stocked equally in Bronte and the Credit Rivers starting in 2016. MNRF is planning to assess the results of this initiative to see if there is a significant difference between the two sources." (from the MNRF Lake Manager's note to the FMZ 20 Council)

To discuss the Atlantic Salmon program or these other issues further, I can be reached at [email protected] or 705-748-6324 ext. 237. OFAH responses to public consultations are available online at: https://www.ofah.org/fishing-hunting/fishing-fisheries/action/ and our specific response to the Lake Ontario stocking plan is here: http://www.ofah.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/OFAH-submission-on-Proposed-Stocking-Plan-for-Canadian-Waters_of-Lake-Ontario-EBR-012-3046.pdf

Yours in Conservation,
Chris Robinson
OFAH Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program Coordinator
OFAH FMZ 20 West Advisory Council Alternate
OFAH Credit River FMP Implementation Committee Member

[Salmonidstalker]

Chris, how you continue to spew pure propaganda is rediculous. We all know that ofah gets money to run this program. The ofah are a bunch of scam artists.

 

What the ofah has done to the credit along with TU and the Aurora district is a shame. Good luck with your 2 fish that returned this year. What a joke.

[misfish]

I think I posted it a while ago about the atlantics that were put in at Elderado Park on the credit. They were put in at the old train bridge. This was in 1980/81. I know this ,as I was there just walking the river fishing and there were guys putting them in. I asked what they were doing. it was new to me seeing this.

 

I have only caught a handfull of them out from the mouth of the Humber in the early 90,s and they were not very big.

 

Thats all I have to add to this.

 

Cant wait for the read Milo.

[Salmonidstalker]

Id like to hear what aniceguy has to add

[landry]

Chris,

While you are an exceptional writer and also appear to be highly intelligent I still feel as though something is amiss regarding Atlantic Salmon stocking. It feels like the MNR is desperately clinging on to an ideology or goal that is in fact a huge gamble of tax dollars.

Hearing about this pipe dream for years has worn on me. Give it up - invest the same effort and money into steelhead, browns and salmon. I'm not saying we should just start dumping millions of salmonids into Lake O like some of our U.S. neighbours do.

Continue to keep a close eye on alewive numbers and focus on maintaining a proper prey relationship.

Let's start to place our bets on a horse that has actually won a race or two in the last thirty years.

[manitoubass2]

Bomb the damns and the fish.

 

Stupid migrant trout???

[misfish]

Landry

 

Your comment reminded me of something I have been wanting to ask and always wondered .

 

There seems to be great runs of browns on the USA side and anglers from this side seem to flock to it.

 

Why is there not the same here? I can remember fishing the humber way back, and the brown numbers were great. I dont know what the numbers are like now, but you dont hear of guys saying the numbers are great on our side.

 

Yes I know ,many will not report it, but for some reason, the numbers are stupid crazy accross the boarder from what I read and heard.

 

I use to fish the four sisters during the winter months for browns during the 80,s and early 90,s. We caught , what I was told, a german strain of browns that were introduced by the american side. They were in great numbers then. Would of loved to fished it in the earlier years .

Edited September 29, 2015 by Brian B

[ckewley]

Bomb the damns and the fish.

 

Stupid migrant trout

Your first line reminds me of a Forgotten Rebels song...

[Salmonidstalker]

Landry

 

Your comment reminded me of something I have been wanting to ask and always wondered .

 

There seems to be great runs of browns on the USA side and anglers from this side seem to flock to it.

 

Why is there not the same here? I can remember fishing the humber way back, and the brown numbers were great. I dont know what the numbers are like now, but you dont hear of guys saying the numbers are great on our side.

 

Yes I know ,many will not report it, but for some reason, the numbers are stupid crazy accross the boarder from what I read and heard.

 

I use to fish the four sisters during the winter months for browns during the 80,s and early 90,s. We caught , what I was told, a german strain of browns that were introduced by the american side. They were in great numbers then. Would of loved to fished it in the earlier years .

It's a stocked fishery predominantly. The DNR stock millions of smolts across NY. The anglers then have something to fish for in the rivers that have no chance at natural reproduction.

 

They also run their fishery like a business. They give what the anglers want to see, fish!

 

Browns would do amazing in any river as long as they have access to prime spawning water.

[Dutch01]

Your first line reminds me of a Forgotten Rebels song...

 

They were great back in the day.....I heard they still play a couple gigs every year......

[manitoubass2]

Your first line reminds me of a Forgotten Rebels song...

Im amazed it was caught???

[Garnet]

I was part of the original group that went to Queens Park for meeting MNR Newman. We asked for salmon stocking. Must have been waiting for us because he jump right on the Atlantic program and gave us brown trout stocking east of Rouge.

 

They put a group of MNR bio's and a rep from each club and toured eastern states and Provinces. One guy that went was a freak for picking up a copy of every study done.

 

I'm the only one that read all the reports. And it was very clear these are the stupidest fish known to man. Any flashy silver do dad will clear out any hole. And they are stocking into a major boat fisher that troll flashy spoons.

 

And another every clear point was they imprint to the river and to the hole that they were born in. And the MNR are still dumping them out of tankers by the thousands.

 

They should be stocking individual holes with 10-15 smolts.

 

That should be a make work project MNR would jump right on.

[Steve]

This, along with MNRF’s annual Lake Ontario reports ( http://www.glfc.org/lakecom/loc/mgmt_unit/ ), also describes how Atlantic Salmon stocking is actually distributed and more information on the program. But it also discusses the problems with Lake Ontario’s Brown Trout fishery (the migratory/open water fish, not the upstream residents) and proposed two alternative stocking options to improve the fishery. In short, despite being the second most stocked species by weight (after Lake Trout), Brown Trout had catch rates barely above Atlantic Salmon. The proposed alternatives were to stock more heavily at fewer locations, or stock heavily in annually alternating locations.

 

That is the single biggest amount of horse crap I've ever heard spewed from your mouth Chris. The single biggest!!

 

I'll allow you to "clarify" your words before I clearly show how stupid and wrong that statement is. And of course, if one of your statements are as stupid as that, we can all imagine how much more verbal diarrhea you must spew.

 

So, please clarify, or if not, I'll have some fun :)

[dave524]

It is now the 150th anniversary of Sam Wilmot first rearing Atlantic Salmon at a the mouth of Wilmot Creek in an attempt to reintroduce them to Lake Ontario in 1865.