Tayzak15 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Sorry i was trying to simplify at my perception of your level of understanding....allow me to fill in the lines for you...but it will require your reading the article rather then my short sited paragraph http://rabble.ca/news/2013/01/message-canadians-dont-let-ignorant-and-uniformed-speak-loudest#.UPgd9jc8EL4.twitter Im not a racist, I support freedom, but it is impossible to live in a free country when there is one race getting more benefits than any other one.
bigugli Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 And so it begins. I see the arguments of 40 years back, beginning to rear their heads again. What happens when the peaceful protests do not produce the desired results? You escalate?. Lengthy blockades of the railway and the Trans Canada anyone. I do hope the behaviour does not go down that path again
Twocoda Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Tayzak15.....you say there is "No reason for you guys to be mad at Harper" When Harper was the opposition and the Government pushed a 15 page Omnibus Bill through he went as far as calling the process Anti-Canadian and a violation to democracy for the people...they deserve to know whats in these bills and it entitlement to be open for debate....fast forward to Bill C36 (450 pages) and Bill C45 (452 pages) that Harper has pushed through....and remind me how we do not have any reason to be mad at Harper! If there was good things in either of these Bills there would be champagne and caviar partyies celebrating what a great job the PCs are doing for us Canadians....Fact is ....these bills are designed to support other controlling Omnibus Indian Act for control over the Indigenous Peoples for what Gov see is in the best interest of a very small percentage of the population(Corporate Oil and Minerals that fund their elections) Harper has flipped from his flop of what he thought was "anti Canadian" He counts on Canadians to be passive and NOT to pay attention until its over and done with....Respect the Natives for standing up for you and your rights from a Government that does what ever it feels it can make the most money from in the interests of the ONLY people that matter....and if you think you matter???? You only matter as long as you keep generating Tax money and Not paying attention to what they are doing....at least it makes for conversation around the water cooler
Tayzak15 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 I know what Harpers trying to do, and I disagree with it. It's still not very clear what the Aboriginals are trying to do here. Thats what people are questioning. Is this a Bill C45 thing for them or is this a money thing? I have yet to see the real purpose behind this and it seems like 90% of our population doesn't know whats even going on yet.I guess we'll have to wait till Spence makes up her mind on meeting Harper to get true details about the entire thing...
Twocoda Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) I know what Harpers trying to do, and I disagree with it. It's still not very clear what the Aboriginals are trying to do here. Thats what people are questioning. Is this a Bill C45 thing for them or is this a money thing? I have yet to see the real purpose behind this and it seems like 90% of our population doesn't know whats even going on yet.I guess we'll have to wait till Spence makes up her mind on meeting Harper to get true details about the entire thing... This is my opinion....they want the State of Canada to respect and recognize The Treatys as the whole world recognizes them from the Crown to the United Nations . First Nations has won 137 claims of injustice and crimes against them as a Nation as seen by the United Nations Courts which Canada belongs to but doesnt abide by because of the attempts to lumber forward to oppress them. Did you know OUR government has spent 30 million of our Tax Dollars to stave off the charges against them cited by the UN...but only come up with a public apology to the first Nations as a resolution....oh im sorry we killed and raped the children of residential schools now shut up and get back on your reserve so we can continue to rape just your land... For economic growth do we need to harvest resources?... absolutely but in a controlled manner that will benefit ALL of us as two nations sharing the land...Diamonds Gold Oil And Forestry Fish and Water in their respected Territories...Give the First Nations their share of the harvest and then let them pull themselves out of the situation we put them in....If you think we cant afford it ...Simply STOP paying the Queen her share but i dont think the First Nations would never go for that as they respect the Queen and honour the treaties that were formed by the Crown to live in harmony with the settlers....After everything that has been done to them...im surprised they are as tolerant as they are.....Everytime the First Nations vent Olka, Ole Man Dam, Ipperwash,Caledonia. Burnt Church etc....I feel the future is going to look back and see it was a small price to pay and rather peaceful considering what could happen in a revolution.. .First Nations had a Law of the Land prior to our arrival....they weren't running around naked in the bush hoping for us to come and save them. With the treaties their Laws of the Land were precedent over our Laws and were to have consent to change....we didnt seek to inform of changes we were making...we just made the changes and made up our own Laws and since we were doing our best to exterminate them....our Laws became the RULE of the land in OUR minds but not theirs (hence the lost Law Suits Canada has encountered over the past decade with Indian Affairs)... The best thing you can do is read read read ...talk to some First Nation peoples and learn the truth instead of buying into the the Government controlled Media spin.... When/ if you do want to understand and take it upon yourself to actually talk to some indigenous people ....do NOT confuse their vocabulary or communication skills as being any less intelligent that you...English is a second launguage and as im finding out with learning the Ojibwa launguage some translations from theirs to ours is a bit difficult Edited January 17, 2013 by Twocoda
Headhunter Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Our country's economy is heavily weighted in the resource sector. Our ability to globally compete, strictly from a labour perspective is virtually gone. A have province like Ontario is now a have not province. So, our PM (duly elected) decides to push through legislation that will limit special interest groups ability to tie up money making ventures for years.He is using our our country's best assetts... resources. What should our PM do, let our country fall into a third world status as the current third world catches up to us. We have to sell our resources to have any kind of economic future. No economy, no money for anyone. RE Captain Hooks point above... I agree and to those who may not, take a drive by Ipperwash and have a good look... custodians of the land... ha! HH
Lunker Larry Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 The protest on Hwy.17, between Sturgeon Falls and North Bay, was very polite and they only hell up my ambulance until the driver flashed his lights and siren. Here is an interesting review by Adrienne Arsenault of CBC: https://www.youtube.com/embed/1ynaC8f5ues Manitoubass2, RRFN (Emo, Ontario, near the U.S. border) this looks like a nice civilized and warm part of the country. Although I have never been there I suspect it would be a great place to visit. But I am curious if you have ever visited Attawapiskat? Attatwpiskat is cold, very cold in the winter. But I would recommend visiting it in July, after the snow melts and uncovers the real mess. My experience, living and working with native people, in far northern communities, for many years has been very rewarding. However I have found Natives to be no more environmentally conscious than the average Canadian and (in local areas) perhaps less so? The great illusion that our Native people are proud keepers of the land and wildlife .. is often only that. When all is said and done, I have found us/we to be very much the same, no better and no worse. So lets try and work together to solve our problems. Thisi is a great country. I agree with your comment on the environment. The way natives talk about spirits and mother earth reminds me of my teenage hippie days in the late '60s. All spacey and they talk like a 1950s western. Give them ownership of the land and once they start cashing in on it, all that will go up in their holy smoke. I have a lot of respect and empathy for our first nations, and I firmly believe that previous govt's had their head up their ars in dealing with them, but I strongly believe that in recent history they have been let down by their own leaders more than just the govt.
Tayzak15 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 This is my opinion....they want the State of Canada to respect and recognize The Treatys as the whole world recognizes them from the Crown to the United Nations . First Nations has won 137 claims of injustice and crimes against them as a Nation as seen by the United Nations Courts which Canada belongs to but doesnt abide by because of the attempts to lumber forward to oppress them. Did you know OUR government has spent 30 million of our Tax Dollars to stave off the charges against them cited by the UN...but only come up with a public apology to the first Nations as a resolution....oh im sorry we killed and raped the children of residential schools now shut up and get back on your reserve so we can continue to rape just your land... For economic growth do we need to harvest resources?... absolutely but in a controlled manner that will benefit ALL of us as two nations sharing the land...Diamonds Gold Oil And Forestry Fish and Water in their respected Territories...Give the First Nations their share of the harvest and then let them pull themselves out of the situation we put them in....If you think we cant afford it ...Simply STOP paying the Queen her share but i dont think the First Nations would never go for that as they respect the Queen and honour the treaties that were formed by the Crown to live in harmony with the settlers....After everything that has been done to them...im surprised they are as tolerant as they are.....Everytime the First Nations vent Olka, Ole Man Dam, Ipperwash,Caledonia. Burnt Church etc....I feel history is going to look back and see it was a small price to pay and rather peaceful considering what could happen in a revolution.. .First Nations had a Law of the Land prior to our arrival....they weren't running around naked in the bush hoping for us to come and save them. With the treaties their Laws of the Land were precedent over our Laws and were to have consent to change....we didnt seek to inform of changes we were making...we just made the changes and made up our own Laws and since we were doing our best to exterminate them....our Laws became the RULE of the land in OUR minds but not theirs (hence the lost Law Suits Canada has encountered over the past decade with Indian Affairs)... The best thing you can do is read read read ...talk to some First Nation peoples and learn the truth instead of buying into the the Government controlled Media spin.... When/ if you do want to understand and take it upon yourself to actually talk to some indigenous people ....do NOT confuse their vocabulary or communication skills as being any less intelligent that you...English is a second launguage and as im finding out with learning the Ojibwa launguage some translations from theirs to ours is a bit difficult I talk to Native people trust me. I have a lot of native friends as I am from Timmins. I just feel Spence is protesting for the wrong reasons.
Rod Caster Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 As long as it is mostly about Canadian and environmental values, I'll support the protest, but if it turns completely into a divisive/race/money tool I'll shy away from it as I have no idea who is more wrong or right, its beyond my understanding. I see two different topics in Idle No More, on one side its their peoples fight (which I will watch from the sidelines: its their land yet we live in modern times: I don't know what the winning solution really is ) and the other is the preservation of canadian values and land quality (which affects us and our kids).
Rod Caster Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Third world country, HH? Really, that's your (and the PM's) concern? We are turning more and more american under this government, I'd say that is our biggest concern considering their monetary situation.
Twocoda Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Here are few reasons why you as Canadians might want to consider supporting Idle No More 1. Because Idle No More represents a compelling call to build a more equitable and sustainable society where the most vulnerable populations have access to basic rights such as appropriate housing, food and clean water, education and autonomy 2. Because Idle No More represents a strong voice against the destruction and continued privatization of our natural resources3. Because Idle No More represents a sovereign call to defend traditional governance and real participatory democracy4. Because Idle No More represents a legitimate voice against governmental racist and assimilationist policies that perpetuate neo-colonial relations
SirCranksalot Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 ya pretty much says it all.... No, not really! They have been mistreated by their own chiefs AND by the successive Cdn gov'ts, the Harper gov't being a particularly bad example.
Lunker Larry Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 There is one very strong argument for supporting first nations at this time. That is the defeat of C45. Hidden in C-45 is the makings to remove all the environmental protection agreements so strongly promoted in the 70s for the protection of our lakes, land and waterways and basically trash treaties. C-45 protects about 5% of lakes/rivers for some reason and regarding fish, it only refers to those that are economically beneficial. So basically a mining, drilling, oil or gas industry can do whatever they want to the remaining 95% of your waterways. It used to be the industries had to provide an environmental plan for any proposed projects. That will no longer be the case as it has been turned around and it is up to us to argue against those projects. C45 is the worst bill to come out of our govt yet and was developed specifically to simplify and remove what the oil, mining and gas industries state as impediments to development. It's all about money. At present first nations and us share the resources that many of us take for granted. The first nations and us are having the rug pulled out from under us. Idle no More has turned into a hodge podge of issues for first nations. They originally stood up against the implications of C45. I strongly back their defiance of this bill. I don't back Chief Spence (?). I think that's idiotic. It's like a child holding their breath until they get what they want. The govt can't give into something like that. I know she means well but she's not a hero-she's an idiot.
capt_hooked Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 I am tending to think that maybe Twocoda here is one of the better educated on this subject and I'm not sure that I trust Harper as far as I could throw him???? I have NO idea what the new legislation means.. and suspect that probably applies for many us? "Keep it complicated enough and run it through!"
Headhunter Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 You forgot these... 5. Because Idle No More is challenging mainstream images and stereotypes of passive/victimized indigenous subjects and providing visibility for alternative voices6. Because Idle No More is raising unprecedented awareness regarding the Right of Indigenous Peoples and the rights of Canadian inhabitants7. Because Idle No More provides an opportunity to re-think social, political and economic relations in ways that include environmental, spiritual, and communitarian values8. Because as immigrants we have the responsibility to engage in dialogue with the original peoples of these lands! I have very low expectations of the accomplishment of government, regardless of who is running it. I simply care about how much I have to pay and am I getting my money's worth. You get that way after a while... HH
Rich Nelson Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Here are few reasons why you as Canadians might want to consider supporting Idle No More 1. Because Idle No More represents a compelling call to build a more equitable and sustainable society where the most vulnerable populations have access to basic rights such as appropriate housing, food and clean water, education and autonomy 2. Because Idle No More represents a strong voice against the destruction and continued privatization of our natural resources 3. Because Idle No More represents a sovereign call to defend traditional governance and real participatory democracy 4. Because Idle No More represents a legitimate voice against governmental racist and assimilationist policies that perpetuate neo-colonial relations Canadian government does not deny anyone in this country the right to appropriate housing, food and clean water, education and autonomy. Giving billions of dollars isnt enough now? The natives (that are protesting)dont like the laws and rules of Canadian government, yet they keep holding out their hands and expecting everything handed to them. They are given the money to be able to have the same things as the rest of Canadians concerning quality of life. Idle No More.... Terrible choice of words. Still Idle, and still holding out their hands.
manitoubass2 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) I'd like to add more to this, but I'll give it some time. Twocoda has done a marvelous job of presenting facts and Is to be applauded for understanding the issues without bias. But first, a few more points to ponder in regards to Aboriginals and the land. Some of the examples being given are not being viewed as an overall picture, but rather pointing out one extreme to the next. Not all Natives live their lives by the 7 teachings, just like not all whites are catholic. So in areas where the people are not following the 7 teachings, plus other factors, you may see reservations with absolute horrid living conditions, no jobs and the like. But you will also see reserves that are thriving, and following the 7 teachings as best they can. Take this into consideration. Also, many reserves are in horrible situations because of assimilation and the mental, long term effects these conditions. Just step back and think about the mental/physical and psychological toll many of these horrible situations have had on indigenious peoples. It's not like Natives have drinking or drug issues just because. It's because many of them are damaged and can't cope with the situations that were put upon them. Edited January 17, 2013 by manitoubass2
bushart Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Actually......TWOCODA for PM Thanks----for putting it into perspective And thanks to "Idle No More" for trying---when our current parliamentary system proved completely ineffective in having the oppostion get even a single change after trying what they had at their disposal to improve that omnibus fiasco Yes----Stephen "The Longshanks" learned well from his mentors------if environmental protection laws impede bottom lines for shareholders and his future employers-----change the law Now the traffic inconvenience------if they demonstrated at the roadside-----would they get the attention??-----do you notice the Hare Krishna's in the corner??---likely not. I'm glad they are there----standing up against this regime . Here's an article off the idle website-------Western farmers-----did'nt see that coming National Farmers Union in Solidarity with Idle No More Written by Sheelah McLean Saskatoon: “The NFU is proud to declare its solidarity with Idle No More, which is bringing people together from across Canada to stop the Harper government from riding roughshod over our collective rights,” says Glenn Tait, NFU National Board member. “We want a better Canada.” The NFU is calling for the federal government to fulfill its Constitutional duty to consult and accommodate Aboriginal and Treaty rights and urges the Crown to respect and fulfill the obligations of its Treaties with First Nations. We are all Treaty people. The NFU gratefully acknowledges the leadership that First Nations people - the first farmers, fisher people, and hunters of this land - have provided in catalyzing a public call to action for environmental and social justice. The NFU, in solidarity with Idle No More and its allies, looks forward to building a society in which our forests, waters, land, and people live and produce in harmony. In response, Sheelah McLean, one of the founding organizers of the Idle No More movement, says “We are so grateful for the support of groups such as the NFU. This alliance is essential for educating people about how critical it is to have healthy land, food and water.” “Idle No More is not solely about First Nations’ concerns,” says Tait. “We share common commitments to protecting our precious natural resources - water, earth, air, and people - today and for future generations. Like First Nations, farmers put land at the center of our lives, but none of us will be able to work, grow, and produce if our government abandons its role as protector of our land and water. Nor will Canadians have sovereignty if investment corporations own our farmland.” “Bill C-45 and the omnibus approach to legislation is fundamentally undemocratic and an insult to all Canadians. It is no example of how to accomplish these goals,” says Tait. “There has been no broad-based consultation about what is being changed, or whether changes are needed or wanted. Diverse voices and opinions are systematically excluded, committee reviews minimized, and debate quashed. The Harper government talks only to those who agree with its vision for Canada.” Tait believes that Bill C-45, Bill C-38 and other bills are threatening farmers’ rights to own the seeds they plant, grow and re-use. Legislative changes are making it harder for farmers to receive the full value of their grain. As evidence, he points to the Harper government’s destruction of the Canadian Wheat Board single desk and changes to the authority, structure and budget of the Canadian Grain Commission that have crippled its power to ensure fair grading and measuring. Tait cites Harper’s secretive negotiations of trade deals like CETA and TPP as further evidence of the government’s exclusion of not only First Nations, but all Canadians from democratic processes. “The Harper government is handing Canadian sovereignty over to corporations that are not rooted in or committed to anything but capital. It if has its way, these entities will have free reign to pry our lakes and rivers, minerals, forests, soils and seeds out from under us whether we are farmers or First Nations. We will stand together to stop this from happening.”
manitoubass2 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Canadian government does not deny anyone in this country the right to appropriate housing, food and clean water, education and autonomy. Giving billions of dollars isnt enough now? The natives (that are protesting)dont like the laws and rules of Canadian government, yet they keep holding out their hands and expecting everything handed to them. They are given the money to be able to have the same things as the rest of Canadians concerning quality of life. Idle No More.... Terrible choice of words. Still Idle, and still holding out their hands. These decisions in regards to the land and finances has much more to do with the Queen and the Governor General. Canada is not just forking out a whole bunch of money to appease Natives, there essentially renting the land. And guess who it was drafted by? Your mad at the wrong people...
Headhunter Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Then they shoud shut down some highways and rail lines and disrupt peoples lives in Great Britain... I prefer to think of it as "rent to own"... and I've paid a lot of rent over the years. HH
manitoubass2 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Then they shoud shut down some highways and rail lines and disrupt peoples lives in Great Britain... I prefer to think of it as "rent to own"... and I've paid a lot of rent over the years. HH Think however you wish, but your thoughts are not law nor are they what was signed in the treaties. The rallies are all over the world, lol, not just in Canada
Rich Nelson Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 Also, many reserves are in horrible situations because of assimilation and the mental, long term effects these conditions. Just step back and think about the mental/physical and psychological toll many of these horrible situations have had on indigenious peoples. It's not like Natives have drinking or drug issues just because. It's because many of them are damaged and can't cope with the situations that were put upon them. While the leaders drive around in Cadilac Escalades... Clearly caring about the people they lead... So the answer is education so that all can be self sufficient. Then the flow of free money can stop... No?
Twocoda Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) While the leaders drive around in Cadilac Escalades... Clearly caring about the people they lead... So the answer is education so that all can be self sufficient. Then the flow of free money can stop... No? define free money????being oppressed and chastised for generations free???? raped killed in Government run schools free???? .....but to answer you question ...there is a Nation in BC that his extremely successful by having very stringent plan of success and they are fulfilling it to the max....they own a 230 million dollar prison and have contracts of exportation/importation and harvest of all the resources that come from the land.....and yes ...they pay taxes into our Government..and hire other nations natives to educate train and provide more tax payers to OUR system Edited January 17, 2013 by Twocoda
Steve Posted January 17, 2013 Report Posted January 17, 2013 manitoubass2, have you spent any time educating yourself about caledonia?
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