lew Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 This was a terrible tragedy and it's hard to even comprehend how anyone could do it, but I also think it's good to hear everyones different thoughts on it. I'm like Kemper though, as I'm sure most Canadians are too, and the thought of everyone walking around with loaded handguns is just something that's so foreign to us in this country. I read alot of the different American boards, as I'm sure many here do too, and I just can't get over their love affair with handguns. These guys are carrying them on their belt's, in the truck and some guys even carry them in the boat when they go fishing. Personally, I just don't get it. Some of the responses on the other boards are pretty scary too. Guys are suggesting shotguns be kept in every classroom, all teachers should be armed with handguns and one guy even said it should be mandatory for EVERY sane person in the US over 21 to carry a loaded handgun at all times. Can you just imagine a gunfight between teachers and whaco's in a school hallway full of children ?? Toronto is the biggest city in Canada with a population of 2.5 million people, yet only 50-60 murders are committed every year and their mostly gang bangers killing each other with illegal guns smuggled in from the States. I don't mean this as a slam against Americans, it's just that our 2 countries are similar in many ways, but VERY different in others. I MUCH prefer our system, but that's just me.
Nipfisher Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 I can't ever recall seeing a hand gun in Canada, but on my annual trip to the NASCAR event in Kansas (40 days out of my entire life), I've seen about a dozen of them. A next door camper keeps a loaded gun under the seat of his truck. Another neighbor buddy at the track was showing me his collection, and when I picked one up to have a closer look, he said "Careful now, It's loaded". I just don't get that. He had probably a half dozen guns in his colletion alone. Nancy Lanza owned these guns. Why does an upper middle class woman need to own these things? None of my friends Moms owned pistols and assault weapons. Anyways, I can go on and on about this. Raising my 5 years old grandson might have something to do with my feelings about this. Bottom line for me is that "the right to bear arms" should be revisited. Clearly not everyone should have that "right". I'd rather have the right to feel safe, rather than the right to carry a gun. But that's just me. I don't live in the USA, so it's not my call. Best quote I have seen on Facebook. Ah, the US...A country where guns are a right and health care is not, lives were lost to someone sick and well-armed. What a shame.
woodenboater Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 The cultural gap, gun culture that is, between the United States and pretty well every other Western, english speaking country, is wide and I don't see it ever being bridged. It's in their Constitution and that's basically as sacred as one can get so I understand their stance. fwiw, a friend was transferred to Miami a number of years ago and one thing he had to consider was whether or not to pack a handgun or not. I presume this was suggested by co-workers and I don't believe he chose that option.
pics Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 My 9 year old gave ME the big hug when I got home from work. She saw a bit of it on TV.......
gogu392 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) "Bottom line for me is that "the right to bear arms" should be revisited." You wish. The lobby paid by the arms dealers will not let that happen. The Washington puppets will just show fake sorrow attitude and this will be forget in no time. Small elite make business (read big bucks/profit) and the rest of 300 million suckers have to live in fear. So much corruption and ipocrisy in this country I can't believe it. Same crap in food industry, pharmaceutical, health. The amerloc (american loco) citizen deserve this, because they chose it. After this incident most probably they will say the kids should carry guns in schools to be able to defend themselves. A society leads by profiteers. I hope this trend and philosophy of live stay out of Canada. PS: I do have military training and I lived on my skin what means to be in a close range (less than 10 meters) when and idiot decide to fire an AK47 to kill himself. Luckily the direction of the bullet ended up in a concrete wall and not in our platoon line formation. I was 18 years old at that time and definitely want to live. That day I really felt that I am living on borrowed time, the Connecticut incident and any shooting in Toronto just bring me back the memories that I want to forget. So live safe, appreciate your freedom but respect others and most important have common sense. Edited December 16, 2012 by gogan
blarg Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 If gun control made it harder for ever a single murder to be committed, wouldn't it be worth it? If we banned boats to ensure that no one was ever killed again by a reckless or drunk boater would that be worth it? How about banning booze again? Perhaps we should imprison people for speeding instead of giving out tickets, the if it saves just one life argument is no argument at all. How many of us grew up in homes with rifles and ammunition on the wall and didn't shoot anyone, of those of us who grew up in the country at least, lots i bet. I wish there was an answer, without a constitutional amendment which i can't ever imagine happening, the gun laws will not be changed enough to prevent this from happening again. Even in Canada where our laws are much stricter, it happens, even with the beloved by some gun registry, it happened, this is a societal problem, and there are no easy answers. Do you want a society without risk that someone might decide to hurt you, which even without guns is impossible, or do you want to live and not just be alive? I wonder if the people in China are asking these same questions after the mass stabbings they are having, and apparently its nothing new there, even here stabbings now kill more people than shootings, and injure far more. You will not get rid of guns, here or there, it will happen again, it doesn't matter if its a shotgun, hunting rifle, or handgun, or knife, or a pipe bomb, that's reality. A sad one it is, but there is no use in pretending otherwise. The answer to your question is no.
DoubleDigits Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 If we banned boats to ensure that no one was ever killed again by a reckless or drunk boater would that be worth it? How about banning booze again? Perhaps we should imprison people for speeding instead of giving out tickets, the if it saves just one life argument is no argument at all. How many of us grew up in homes with rifles and ammunition on the wall and didn't shoot anyone, of those of us who grew up in the country at least, lots i bet. I wish there was an answer, without a constitutional amendment which i can't ever imagine happening, the gun laws will not be changed enough to prevent this from happening again. Even in Canada where our laws are much stricter, it happens, even with the beloved by some gun registry, it happened, this is a societal problem, and there are no easy answers. Do you want a society without risk that someone might decide to hurt you, which even without guns is impossible, or do you want to live and not just be alive? I wonder if the people in China are asking these same questions after the mass stabbings they are having, and apparently its nothing new there, even here stabbings now kill more people than shootings, and injure far more. You will not get rid of guns, here or there, it will happen again, it doesn't matter if its a shotgun, hunting rifle, or handgun, or knife, or a pipe bomb, that's reality. A sad one it is, but there is no use in pretending otherwise. The answer to your question is no. The guy in China stabbed 22 children. There were no fatalities. Zero. There are many good, responsible people who own hand guns and assault weapons for many different weapons. They keep and operate them safely, and would never think about using them to kill people... would it be a shame that these people would be deprived of their lifelong hobby, and even their own private property, if such weapons were to become illegal? Yes, it would be...Just not nearly as much as a shame as whole classrooms of children being slaughtered. Living in society is about making choices and sacrifices for the greater good of everyone...
aplumma Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 I have a challenge for all to just play in your head. Pick out any item you find in your house and ask yourself can you Kill, Maim or Destroy something/one with this item? While not a fun game it will illustrate that it is not the item that is at fault it is the mind that thought of that as an acceptable use for that item. I know that our mindset in the USA on guns differ from Canada we both will always feel our view is correct because it is the one we have been shown socially as acceptable. I have had guns in my life since I was born from shooting food for the table to target practicing and even defending our nation from others that want to deny me my Constitutional rights. I have my own thoughts about the Canadian health care system, drug policies and the ways of the government but those are not for me to decide it is how the Canadians have elected and voted to have there lives regulated. Down here with the same voting system if one American votes no and a thousand Canadians agree with that vote in the end it is still just one vote that counts. Discussing gun control on this thread is not going to cause the US to ban guns however it will detract from the original thread and will cause nothing but disagreements from pro gun and anti gun believers. Art
solopaddler Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 I have a challenge for all to just play in your head. Pick out any item you find in your house and ask yourself can you Kill, Maim or Destroy something/one with this item? While not a fun game it will illustrate that it is not the item that is at fault it is the mind that thought of that as an acceptable use for that item. That's not a very good anology. I highly doubt the kid in Conneticut could have walked into that school and murdered 26 people with a Bic pen.
tb4me Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 I have a challenge for all to just play in your head. Pick out any item you find in your house and ask yourself can you Kill, Maim or Destroy something/one with this item? While not a fun game it will illustrate that it is not the item that is at fault it is the mind that thought of that as an acceptable use for that item. I know that our mindset in the USA on guns differ from Canada we both will always feel our view is correct because it is the one we have been shown socially as acceptable. I have had guns in my life since I was born from shooting food for the table to target practicing and even defending our nation from others that want to deny me my Constitutional rights. I have my own thoughts about the Canadian health care system, drug policies and the ways of the government but those are not for me to decide it is how the Canadians have elected and voted to have there lives regulated. Down here with the same voting system if one American votes no and a thousand Canadians agree with that vote in the end it is still just one vote that counts. Discussing gun control on this thread is not going to cause the US to ban guns however it will detract from the original thread and will cause nothing but disagreements from pro gun and anti gun believers. Art I totally understand where your coming from Art..I also respect your opinion. I do however think that, yes he could have went in that school with a knife or a bic pen for that matter, but it was the weapons ability that enabled him do as much damage as possible in a short period of time. If he had a shotgun or a single shot rifle the casualty numbers would have been way down In the news today, they are reporting the shooter was at the school the day before and had a fight with 4 teachers.. He returned to kill those 4.. He got 3 of them the 4th was off sick..Not that it matters but this explains the "why"
Rich Clemens Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Discussing gun control on this thread is not going to cause the US to ban guns however it will detract from the original thread and will cause nothing but disagreements from pro gun and anti gun believers. Art Thanks Art. It's time to get back to the intent of this topic from the OP. I'd hate to see one get locked down due to a change in direction. Edited December 16, 2012 by Rich Clemens
Rich Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 Laws had nothing to do with this or any other psycho on a killing spree. Its an unfathomable tragedy , that , unfortunately couldn't have really been avoided either way. Whether the murderous psycho's weapon is efficient enough is not the issue. Bombs are illegal. People make them illegally, and do horrible things. I feel all the attention brought to this tragedy will unfortunately feed copycats.
jedimaster Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Just to be clear an ar15 is a non military weapon. It is not used by any military force. It is a civilian adapted semi automatic rifle made to look like the military m16. The automatic assault rifle version doesn't share common firing components and an ar15 by design cant be converted to one. It does shoot nato rounds though but many other rifles also shoot that round. Those round are relatively tame and are in fact designed to wound and not kill. A 30-06 semi auto like a a common remington hunting rifle or a semi auto shotgun. I really hate to see people put the blame on a rifle type that is less dangerous than a common hunting firearm. I do think that there was a clear failure in the systems already put in place to prevent these things. Doors too easy to break into, a mentally unstable person that was supposed to be prohibited from purchasing firearms was allowed to purchase them etc... there are a lot of things to look but as many have said the reality is that this derranged person and any other motivated, funded and determined person will and can get there hands on firearms to commit such terrible acts. Even in australia where they banned all semi automatic rifles and shotguns as well as all handguns still allow handguns of 22 calibre if you belong to and shoot at a range. They bought them back from the public and destroyed them. There is also now a huge infestation of illegal trafficking of firearms in Australia. There is no easy solution to this issue. One of the things I keep hearing is having all of the princicpals keep a locked up gun so they have some ability to try and defend themselves and the students. Now this may seem extreme, but it has been proven that people don't commit mass shootings in places where they know people have weapons to defend themselves. Perhaps they need to have rotating undercover cops patrol schools so that everyone knows its possible an armed cop is in the school. That might make people think twice. Edited December 16, 2012 by jedimaster
lew Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 it has been proven that people don't commit mass shootings in places where they know people have weapons to defend themselves. The army Major that shot a bunch of people on an American military base a year ago didn't seem to concerned about it.
davey buoy Posted December 16, 2012 Report Posted December 16, 2012 Just to be clear and ar15 is a non military weapon. It is not used by any military force. It does shoot nato rounds though but many other rifles also shoot that round. An AR15 is a semi automatic rifle typically sold in a carbine format. To be honest I think I could do more damage if I went off the handle with 30-06 semi auto like a remington. Bigger, round does more damage. I really hate to see people put the blame on rifle type that is less dangerous than what those same people say are ok. I do think that there was a clear failure in the systems already put in place to prevent these things. Doors too easy to break into, a mentally unstable person that was supposed to be prohibited from purchasing firearms was allowed to purchase them etc... there are a lot of things to look but as many have said the reality is that this derranged person and any other motivated, funded and determined person will and can get there hands on firearms to commit such terrible acts. Even in australia where they banned all semi automatic rifles and shotguns as well as all handguns still allow handguns of 22 calibre if you belong to and shoot at a range. There is also now a huge infestation of illegal trafficking of firearms in Australia. There is no easy solution to this issue. One of the things I keep hearing is having all of the princicpals keep a locked up gun so they have some ability to try and defend themselves and the students. Now this may seem extreme, but it has been proven that people don't commit mass shootings in places where they know people have weapons to defend themselves. Perhaps they need to have rotating undercover cops patrol schools so that everyone knows its possible an armed cop is in the school. That might make people think twice. I was telling my wife yesterday,maybe train Principal,Vp and custodian to handle a gun. As you say,many won't go in knowing they could be confronted on the inside.
ch312 Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 Laws had nothing to do with this or any other psycho on a killing spree. Its an unfathomable tragedy , that , unfortunately couldn't have really been avoided either way. Whether the murderous psycho's weapon is efficient enough is not the issue. Bombs are illegal. People make them illegally, and do horrible things. I feel all the attention brought to this tragedy will unfortunately feed copycats. for reasons i cannot comprehend, some people believe that more laws on a piece of paper will magically stop tragic events like this from happening and the world will hold hands singing kumbaya. these same people cannot comprehend the fact that people will make their own decisions regardless of what any law tells them and mass murders would continue to happen if every firearm on earth was destroyed. if guns weren't available he would have probably built a bomb, used fire, or chemicals. i'll bet the same people think that a law prohibiting driving with any alcohol in your blood would magically stop people from getting killed by drunk drivers. too many people focus on the firearms rather than the individual, his mental issues, and what to look for in the future as the only way to prevent such events is learning what to watch for and helping someone when they need it. 9 times out of 10 crap like this could be prevented if family, friends, teachers, and doctors would notice the signs of a nutbar ready to snap. it's proven that stricter firearm laws do not lower crime rates, but they sure do make the lives of legal firearms owners much more difficult. :wallbash:
jedimaster Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 The army Major that shot a bunch of people on an American military base a year ago didn't seem to concerned about it. Army shooting army is a very different situation, and I think the guy that did that was islamic. Fort hood wasn't it in 09? Its a generality yes but I actually think it would actually make people think twice and if not then at least someone would have a fighting chance to defend themselves and the kids. Teachers were throwing themselves in front of bullets. Kids were shot through there hands trying to hide from the bullets. I mean lets be realistic, the americans aren't going to go the route of banning all guns, or even hand guns, or even semi auto's. Something realistic that might help would to have a cop in every school on a random rotation, or armed staff etc... What is the solution? I have no idea, but something should be done. I can almost bet my last dollar that the US is not going to ban guns.
ch312 Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I do think that there was a clear failure in the systems already put in place to prevent these things. Doors too easy to break into, a mentally unstable person that was supposed to be prohibited from purchasing firearms was allowed to purchase them etc... what are you talking about? the shooters mother was fully licensed and was 100% legal to own the firearms used. he STOLE her firearms before shooting her. again, when we're dealing with someone that was deranged enough to kill his mother, no law is going to stop someone with a head like that from killing people... Edited December 17, 2012 by ch312
ch312 Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 The army Major that shot a bunch of people on an American military base a year ago didn't seem to concerned about it. i do believe that in states where CCW is permitted you aren't allowed to carry in a school. but, i could be wrong and this could vary state to state as each state decides when and where you're allowed to carry, except for the federal buildings. it's a proven fact that crime rates drop the majority of time after CCW is introduced. some reading for you anti's http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf
kemper Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 i do believe that in states where CCW is permitted you aren't allowed to carry in a school. but, i could be wrong and this could vary state to state as each state decides when and where you're allowed to carry, except for the federal buildings. it's a proven fact that crime rates drop the majority of time after CCW is introduced. some reading for you anti's http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf Yeah, that paper really gives an unbiased opinion...
Gerritt Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 I think the media has alot to do with this.... these crazies trying to outdo one another... knowing that they will be remembered... talked about... the anti-hero... it is fame, infamy, martyrdom... and the sad thing is... others will follow. trying to out do the last. Media has a big part this.. G
hammercarp Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 Maybe this will help. The anarchist soccer mom.
kemper Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 I think the media has alot to do with this.... these crazies trying to outdo one another... knowing that they will be remembered... talked about... the anti-hero... it is fame, infamy, martyrdom... and the sad thing is... others will follow. trying to out do the last. Media has a big part this.. G Yep, It's unfortunate that the media focuses on the crazies more than the victims.
Rich Clemens Posted December 17, 2012 Report Posted December 17, 2012 I think the media has alot to do with this.... these crazies trying to outdo one another... knowing that they will be remembered... talked about... the anti-hero... it is fame, infamy, martyrdom... and the sad thing is... others will follow. trying to out do the last. Media has a big part this.. G I have to agree with you Gerritt.
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