Sinker Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 yup. And if the insurance company consider it careless driving, like our subject above, you will get charged and be on the hook for the entire recovery bill. I would love to know where you guys come up with this stuff??? Careless driving?? Seriously? I highly doubt it..... I have full coverage if I go thru the ice. I made sure it was quite clear when i talked to my insurance company about it, and even got them to send me a letter stating so. What are the charges your talking about?? Please explain if you wouldn't mind. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 If you drive straight into a river or on one inch of ice, do you honestly think they'll cover you? No, and the police will charge you with careless driving. And the MOE will charge your insurance company for everyday you are polluting, then the insurance company will subrogate or take you to court to recover the MOE costs and the recovery costs. If you pay an unqualifyed or unprofessional ice recovery team, you may be on the hook by the MOL. They will only insure you under a specific set of variables... If your drinking and get charged your insurance is gone, if you drive into essentially open water, you get careless driving charges and then lose your coverage. They might pay upfront, but they'll do whatever they can to prove you were outside your coverage limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I would love to know where you guys come up with this stuff??? Careless driving?? Seriously? I highly doubt it..... I have full coverage if I go thru the ice. I made sure it was quite clear when i talked to my insurance company about it, and even got them to send me a letter stating so. What are the charges your talking about?? Please explain if you wouldn't mind. S. Like our subject above, the police will probably charge him for careless or endangerment if there were warnings released by the police stating the lake was unsafe to drive. If that's the case, his insurance will either recover the truck then sue him or they will flat out refuse to cover it. If they don't cover it, he's responsible for removing the truck and the MOE will rack up the fines if he doesn't follow their orders of timely and environmentally safe removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 if there were warnings released by the police stating the lake was unsafe to drive. The police ALWAYS say the lake is unsafe to drive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 However, people get charged with ALL kinds of things after a accident and they are still covered by their insurance company...speeding, reckless driving, DWI, DUI.....etc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 The police ALWAYS say the lake is unsafe to drive... They do? I haven't heard them say that on Nipissing since earlier this season. I'm talking about official public warnings. Sometimes they release those on the news etc. BB: well, from what I understand, if you are found to be driving reckless, DUI etc, they might initially cover you, but will turn around and sue you and recover their monies if you are found guilty. Or the third party could be suing yourself and not the insurance company. I'll check with my sources again today, I'd like to get a straight answer about the ice driving and all the implications as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 They do? I haven't heard them say that on Nipissing since earlier this season. I'm talking about official public warnings. Sometimes they release those on the news etc. BB: well, from what I understand, if you are found to be driving reckless, DUI etc, they might initially cover you, but will turn around and sue you and recover their monies if you are found guilty. Or the third party could be suing yourself and not the insurance company. I'll check with my sources again today, I'd like to get a straight answer about the ice driving and all the implications as well. It could very well be a multiple answers to these questions depending on your particular insurance company and your particular insurance policy....you can get insurance to cover ANYTHING if you're willing to pay for that coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 It could very well be a multiple answers to these questions depending on your particular insurance company and your particular insurance policy....you can get insurance to cover ANYTHING if you're willing to pay for that coverage. Agreed. I'll get some good info on the ice recovery coverages and pass it on some time today. I wish I had definitive answers on this stuff, but I exhaust far too much brain capacity thinking about fishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) ok, here it is. Stupidity is built into the policy. So yes, if you have comprehensive coverage, the insurance company is fully responsible for the truck, the recovery, the MOE fines etc. Even if you drive onto one inch of ice or it's considered "careless" driving under the Highway Traffic Act and you are fined, the insurance will still cover it. The exception is when there is a criminal charge. This basically voids the policy. So for example, if you were criminally charged for endangerement, drinking over the legal limit or causing death, then you are personally liable for all associated fees, fines, recovery work etc. So if our subject gets criminally charged he will paying up the wahoo...otherwise he gets to live in shame, in a brand new pickup truck.. and have his premiums skyrocket. Edited February 22, 2012 by Rod Caster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 The police ALWAYS say the lake is unsafe to drive... Not really.. Didn't hear of any warnings last year.. This year it's been plastered all over the TV. Although you'd think people wouldn't need a warning, just look outside and see the winter we've had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 ok, here it is. Stupidity is built into the policy. So yes, if you have comprehensive coverage, the insurance company is fully responsible for the truck, the recovery, the MOE fines etc. Even if you drive onto one inch of ice or it's considered "careless" driving under the Highway Traffic Act and you are fined, the insurance will still cover it. The exception is when there is a criminal charge. This basically voids the policy. So for example, if you were criminally charged for endangerement, drinking over the legal limit or causing death, then you are personally liable for all associated fees, fines, recovery work etc. So if our subject gets criminally charged he will paying up the wahoo...otherwise he gets to live in shame, in a brand new pickup truck.. and have his premiums skyrocket. Ok, now this sounds more like it. He won't get charged with anything, the truck will get recovered, and he will get a new one. Worste thing for him is his premiums will go up. Unless the gas tank breaks open, there will be no fines from MOE. Its not considered polluting until a certain amount of contaminant enters the environment, and most passenger vehicles don't fall into that bracket. I've looked into this many, many times, and in my case, I'm fully covered to drive on the ice. No exemptions. If my car goes thru, I have full coverage from recovery to injuries. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Ok, now this sounds more like it. He won't get charged with anything, the truck will get recovered, and he will get a new one. Worste thing for him is his premiums will go up. Unless the gas tank breaks open, there will be no fines from MOE. Its not considered polluting until a certain amount of contaminant enters the environment, and most passenger vehicles don't fall into that bracket. I've looked into this many, many times, and in my case, I'm fully covered to drive on the ice. No exemptions. If my car goes thru, I have full coverage from recovery to injuries. S. The MOE part is not true. The rules are much more complex than that. Your vehicle cannot be left in the water and must be recovered in an acceptable period of time, each MOE officer will make that call at his/her discretion. If the insurance company is bumming around looking for cheap recovery rates, then the MOE can fill an order against them. Most drowned vehicles dont' leak out there fuel, but a truck in the water is still considered a pollution source. The "certain amount of contaminate" rule has many exceptions. It goes like this: If it is under 100 Litres and does NOT enter a waterway or is NOT within 30meters of a waterway, or the contaminant has NOT impacted a "sensitive" ecosystem and if it IS cleaned up, then it does not have to be reported to the MOE. Either way it MUST be cleaned up. The 100 litre exception is only for reporting purposes to save paperwork and money. Most people, even in the industry think that under 100L you do not have to report.... it's a common misconception. Edited February 22, 2012 by Rod Caster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinker Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 The MOE part is not true. The rules are much more complex than that. Your vehicle cannot be left in the water and must be recovered in an acceptable period of time, each MOE officer will make that call at his/her discretion. If the insurance company is bumming around looking for cheap recovery rates, then the MOE can fill an order against them. Most drowned vehicles dont' leak out there fuel, but a truck in the water is still considered a pollution source. thanks for the info.....where are you getting it from? Who defines an acceptable period of time for removal? How long is it? A day, week, month, year?? I still think he will get no charges at all. MOE won't waste thier time with a vehicle thru the ice, unless its contaminating something. An outboard motor will put more contamination in that lake than that truck will just sitting there like that. They have bigger fish to fry. I understand that a truck in the lake is a source of contamination in itself, but its not doing anymore harm than any boats do in the course of a season. Of course, it will have to be removed at some point. I would love to look into charges laid to vehicle owners who have gone thru bad ice. I would think there aren't many out there?? Ironically, I drove out on simcoe that same day. Different part of the lake, and we had plenty of ice for driving, but I had the kids and wife with me in the car with me. 20" of ice is more than enough to float my subaru. Where this guy was driving was open water not long ago. Where i was has been frozen since december. They should just have a stupidity law.....that would surely bring in some revenue!! haha S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Worste thing for him is his premiums will go up. And all his friends and acquaintances will know he's a moron, in case they didn't already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) thanks for the info.....where are you getting it from? Who defines an acceptable period of time for removal? How long is it? A day, week, month, year?? I still think he will get no charges at all. MOE won't waste thier time with a vehicle thru the ice, unless its contaminating something. An outboard motor will put more contamination in that lake than that truck will just sitting there like that. They have bigger fish to fry. I understand that a truck in the lake is a source of contamination in itself, but its not doing anymore harm than any boats do in the course of a season. Of course, it will have to be removed at some point. I would love to look into charges laid to vehicle owners who have gone thru bad ice. I would think there aren't many out there?? Ironically, I drove out on simcoe that same day. Different part of the lake, and we had plenty of ice for driving, but I had the kids and wife with me in the car with me. 20" of ice is more than enough to float my subaru. Where this guy was driving was open water not long ago. Where i was has been frozen since december. They should just have a stupidity law.....that would surely bring in some revenue!! haha S. The reporting info comes directly from the Canadian EPA. I work in the environmental field. An acceptable period of time is defined by the MOE officer who is overseeing the file. Basically, if he/she believes that the insurance company is delaying the removal and that the delay is unreasonable, then they will file an "order" to the insurance company. The "order" will outline the timelines and if they are not met, then fines will be laid. This doesn't happen often, but the MOE is almost always involved in these recoveries and will put pressure on the insurance company to remove the truck asap. They watch these recoveries, because there is always a possibility that a tank will split, or operational fluids will leak, or the recovery team will be negligent, in which case, basic containment and removal is required. Any charges laid to the vehicle owner are for criminal negligence .... guy was hammered or clearly put someone's life in danger. As for the stupidity law... I don't think we have enough room in our jails. haha Edited February 22, 2012 by Rod Caster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheaptackle Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sinker - Rodcaster may not know how to cast a rod ( hee hee ) properly BUT if he says something about anything to do with spills etc. he's da man! It's what he does for a living all over the province and he deals with the MOE almost daily. As for the insurance aspects, again he has to interface with the insurance companies regarding spill cleanups & containments so he has both good knowledge and contacts. I'm only telling you this because HE's much to shy to brag about all his good college learning and prack-tick-cal experience about this stuff Leastwise that's what he done told me Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandybay Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 They do? I haven't heard them say that on Nipissing since earlier this season. I'm talking about official public warnings. Sometimes they release those on the news etc. BB: well, from what I understand, if you are found to be driving reckless, DUI etc, they might initially cover you, but will turn around and sue you and recover their monies if you are found guilty. Or the third party could be suing yourself and not the insurance company. I'll check with my sources again today, I'd like to get a straight answer about the ice driving and all the implications as well. I believe they will issue warnings about bad ice but never say " The ice is safe" just not say anything when it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bob Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 BEST advice I can say now is.....the Mods should pin this thread as it WILL come up again next year and the year after and the year after and the year after..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightline Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I was on both sides of Sutton, Pefferlaw and Keswick and there is 15 to 18 inches in both...we drove our Minivan out as did numerous other people, so I'm confused why everyone is calling this guy Stupid? If I had to guess somebody out there probably didn't mark there holes and this poor bugger drove through them...There was plenty of ice. Heartless crowd already and winter has barely begun, damn hard water season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Cliff Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 This comes up every year and it's always the same thing. The guy was stupid, a fool, what was he thinking! I think it should be pinned! This past weekend I took my ATV out in a snow squal (Sean was going to do it, if anything was going to go wrong I wanted it to be with me) I went because I know the lake and it's a good thing I did. I ended up getting turned around and could have easily gotten into trouble, there was open water in two directions from where I wanted to go. I didn't plan on getting into trouble, I really thought I knew exactly where I was going and was perfectly safe. It could have ended up much differently. There isn't one person on this board that hasn't made a mistake at some point so cut the guy some slack why don't you! All perrials insurance is just that, I have it on my boat, if I go outside of a marked chanel and destroy my boat, I'm covered (come on, tell me just one of you that hasn't gone outside of a marked chanel to fish). Careless, stupid, you can call it what you want! But most of us do it! Go fishing in a storm, do you expect to get hit by lightning? But it can happen! Were you stupid, careless, unlucky, or were you just guilty of bad judgement? Take a corner too fast in your car, hit a patch of black ice, put your sled/truck through the ice. They are all mistakes, the couch potatoes will always find fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COUNTRYBOY Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Well, actually in a way I'm glad they do pay.......but again I would think there should be a 1 time limit to this nonsense.....don't you think.... I SEE EVERYTHING WITH INSURANCE COMPANY'S WHERE THEY LOOK FOR WAYS NOT TO PAY AND THEN YOU SEE SOMETHING SO STUPID LIKE THIS AN THEY PAY. KNEW A GUY A COUPLE YRS AGO WHO WENT THROUGH LAKE NIPISING WITH A DIESEL GM WITH PLOW AND FUEL TANK ON BOARD...IT WAS STILL ATTACHED TO HIS HUT...HE WAS SCRAMBLING TO GET AS MUCH OUT BEFORE IT WENT UNDER AND MANAGED TO GET THE SHACK UNHOOKED. HIS INSURANCE CHANGED A BIT AFTER THAT...HE WAS PAYING FOR PERSONAL INSURANCE AND HE WAS PLOWING AND STUFF FOR HIS BUISNESS...NOW HE PAYS COMERCIAL INSURANCE...AND THEY WOULDN'T PAY FOR PLOW OR ELECTRONICS THAT WENT DOWN WITH IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COUNTRYBOY Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 HERE IS A LINK TO A TOWING COMPANY THAT DOES ICE RECOVERY'S IF NO ONE HAS SEEN HOW THEY DO IT. http://www.bartlettstowing.com/index.php?action=listingview&listingID=17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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