Guiding?

[misfish]

I know that I had thought long and hard about starting up a guiding business for river fishing, but finally came to the conclusion that it just wasnt worth it, too many spots to loose. Its one thing if your going to guide from a boat. Not that many people in general have a boat. alot of people cant afford buying a boat or are willing to spend the $ to buy all the gear involved. So spending $$ on a guide that will take you out and show you how its done is well worth it. they'll pay for the experience alone cause ITS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN JUST GO AND DO ON ANY GIVEN DAY. Where as if you go and guide people on rivers.... all they need is the gas $$$ and a car and a bit of walking effort and they will get there!

I think the thing is that with a boat you have so many options where to go, what to fish for, and have a good chunk of the season to fish.

With the Rivers or shore fishing there's only so many public access spots! And i know that there are only room for afew people per hole in most rivers. crowds are never fun on rivers. I know it wouldnt be fun trying to show a newbie how to fish a river or a hole and have other guys casting over lines, and i know id be pissed the first time i took a new client out, drove an hour and half, or couple hours walked a half hour to hit a certain hole and show up at the crack of dawn and have the people you took out last week and 3 of there buddies along for the ride hitting fish in your best hole while your new client is looking at you like what the hell?? And you know what? I cant say I'd blame the guys for going there either! hey.. its public access, ANYONE can fish it!

 

I thik it may be different if it were a large river like the niagra or rivers in BC. but even out there you see the river guides all using drift boats to get to there places.

 

its one thing if the people are flying in or driving from far off places to have a fishing trip of a lifetime, but id be careful when its people in your own backyard.

 

 

Well said James.

 

My point exactly.

 

Theres a big dif between friends,and clients and those that just want your spots..

Edited December 6, 2009 by misfish

[solopaddler]

Alright I've decided to do it.

 

Check out my website @ pimpmyriver.com

 

[lew]

Alright I've decided to do it.

 

Best of luck Mike !!

[DRIFTER_016]

I came very close to achieving that 3 years ago, had several networks interested and my partner and I had already filmed one episode.

Such are the vagaries of life though, the project was scuttled just as it was taking off.

 

There's been some excellent points made regarding why not to be a river guide.

These are some of the very reasons that have caused me to hedge on doing it.

I do belive that a balance could be struck and it could be done properly though.

First and foremost would be "where?".

I have a few ideas...

 

 

You could guide on the Niagara Mikey!!!

I know you would like that.

[Guest gbfisher]

Knowing a few who do....it sure aint worth the the little amounts they make. Ask Koppers......

I know Aldo sure hasnt made a million....

 

that morning when you really don't want to go fishing for the 200th time this season with some guy who thinks he knows it all and has seen everything and you can't do better?!?!

 

..........I'd rather stay home....... .......

[Moosebunk]

I liked CC's sentiments and also Thorpe's.

 

This topic is great food for thought.

 

Mike... personally I'd think it not worth it for ya for river fishing... for pretty much the reasons CC states. Thanks for taking me out... you know you'd be welcome to fish anytime, anywhere with me. Same goes for DanC, Wayne and any others who have shared in the past.

 

When people would come visit me up north, or friends who didn't regularily fish joined me, taking them fishing was the ultimate for me. There would only be certain types of fish I'd consider guiding for (some I'm not good enough at catching, some I am) and some places I'd only consider guiding. I think for guiding to stay interesting and fun for the guide... it has to somehow always be just as much of an experience for both guide and guest, and the odds would be best if stacked in favor of success, but in a setting/experience that can almost always accept some failure to catch as well because of all else that is lived in the day and place. ie, Drifter at Great Bear, Ramble at Kesagami or Ben in Seul. These types of places hold great chances for intended species, don't hold fear of later being raped, and are a wilderness experience outside of fishing unto themselves.

 

If I don't have a regular job come next spring.................

[singingdog]

John,

In your original post, I think you are comparing two different things- - maybe not apples and oranges, but at least oranges and grapefruit . Sharing your expertise by helping out other real-estate agents is a very different thing than guiding: less pressure, more educated clientele, different circumstance.

 

As a fairly successful kayak fisherman, I have had numerous offers to guide. I am on the water almost 100 days/year and catch my share of large bass. I don't guide at this point for the simple reason that I don't want to have that kind of relationship with fishing....I don't want to "need" something from it. I fish for a variety of reasons, foremost amongst them is to get away from pressure and the need to produce. I love catching fish, and work very hard at it, but I don't want to give up the luxury of deciding when to work hard and when to kick back and enjoy the scenery. If I know that a frontal system is going to shut down the fish, I want to be able to stay off the water and get something else done, not have to meet somebody at lake X and thrash the water with spinnerbaits when I know the fishing won't be any good.

 

I love to teach and make a fair bit of my living as an artist doing just what you described: sharing my hard-earned knowledge with others that pursue one of my passions. I'm willing to do it with art because that is where I make my living and it is "work": I expect it to be a grind sometimes. I also train other folks that want to be teachers. Yes, it can be a joy, but it can also be a PIA when you are dealing with someone that believes that they shouldn't have to go through B,C,D and E to get from A to F and feel that by paying me to share knowledge with them, they are entitled to expect miracles.

 

At this point, I do not want fishing to ever become that.

[Jeff Wiles]

I have taking 20 or so guys over to N.Y. fishing and had a blast 2 guys at a time $100 US and I take them to all the popular spots. You are told on our first Email phone call what ever it is. I DO NOT PUT FISH ON YOUR HOOK. I will put you where the fish are and its up to you to catch them.

 

I think its fun I dont take them to some of my honey holes. Thats where I take my 8 year old.

 

 

 

Jeff

[solopaddler]

I have taking 20 or so guys over to N.Y. fishing and had a blast 2 guys at a time $100 US and I take them to all the popular spots. You are told on our first Email phone call what ever it is. I DO NOT PUT FISH ON YOUR HOOK. I will put you where the fish are and its up to you to catch them.

 

I think its fun I dont take them to some of my honey holes. Thats where I take my 8 year old.

 

 

 

Jeff

 

 

Are you a resident of NY?

[JohnF]

John,

In your original post, I think you are comparing two different things- - maybe not apples and oranges, but at least oranges and grapefruit . Sharing your expertise by helping out other real-estate agents is a very different thing than guiding: less pressure, more educated clientele, different circumstance.

 

As a fairly successful kayak fisherman, I have had numerous offers to guide. I am on the water almost 100 days/year and catch my share of large bass. I don't guide at this point for the simple reason that I don't want to have that kind of relationship with fishing....I don't want to "need" something from it. I fish for a variety of reasons, foremost amongst them is to get away from pressure and the need to produce. I love catching fish, and work very hard at it, but I don't want to give up the luxury of deciding when to work hard and when to kick back and enjoy the scenery. If I know that a frontal system is going to shut down the fish, I want to be able to stay off the water and get something else done, not have to meet somebody at lake X and thrash the water with spinnerbaits when I know the fishing won't be any good.

 

I love to teach and make a fair bit of my living as an artist doing just what you described: sharing my hard-earned knowledge with others that pursue one of my passions. I'm willing to do it with art because that is where I make my living and it is "work": I expect it to be a grind sometimes. I also train other folks that want to be teachers. Yes, it can be a joy, but it can also be a PIA when you are dealing with someone that believes that they shouldn't have to go through B,C,D and E to get from A to F and feel that by paying me to share knowledge with them, they are entitled to expect miracles.

 

At this point, I do not want fishing to ever become that.

 

This thread probably took on a tad more life than I'd expected but it's brought out some interesting points. All I'd really meant to ask was why more obviously accomplished fisherpersons, like you for instance, didn't try to find ways to let fishing help support itself. It can be an expensive habit, and just like drug users turn to dealing, for a while at least, it seems to me a no-brainer for those among us spending way too much on a habit to try to get something back. On the other side of the coin I know there are fisherperson wannabes like me who would happily pay something for the privilege of some river time and tutelage from the like of Mike (or you or Moosebunk or Garry or Lew or any of the many) who have attained icon or near-icon status through their sharing of knowledge and vicarious adventuring.

 

I fully understand the risks in turning a hobby into a job. On the other hand what could be better than a part time job that remains a hobby and more importantly helps offset the cost of the hobby?

 

I thought of another analogy that might better apply here. In Stratford we have a lot of folks who have gotten into the B&B business because of the Shakespearean theatre here. These are folks with big old houses and often nice retirement plans. In some cases they are folks who've come to town specifically to set up a B&B. For many it becomes a lifestyle thing. They meet a lot of new friends who come back year after year. These guests are happy to pay something for their accommodations because they start to feel like part of the family here, they get into a comfort zone and it works well for everyone. They'd be paying for a hotel if they didn't stay at the B&B.

 

Admittedly some of these B&B operators get tired of the pressure and the loss of privacy in their home but it's a relatively small percentage.

 

I liken a casual guiding venture to the B&B business. Not necessarily for everyone but a great thing for those who thrive on it.

 

Considering how much money some of the serious fisherfolks here invest in their fishing each year I sure don't blame some for taking advantage of an opportunity to offset those expenses, and considering the vicarious thrills we OFNers enjoy through their generosity I believe they have something just as worthy as a warm bed and pleasant company to offer to their guests. The tradeoff for the client is good company, confidence to try new things, exposure to knowledge and previously unacquired skill sets, and generally an escape from merely enjoying the grand adventures vicariously and jumping right into the stream and actually participating. Dayum! That sounds good.

 

Here's a scenario for you. My buddy Rob (another crazy artist) has been a kayak fishersoul for the better part of his life. His best moments are getting hisself lost in the Everglades in his kayak, communing with the snakes and alligators. He's been relentlessly hounding me to get a 'yak of my own so I can do some communing too. So assuming I were to get one of the infernal machines, why wouldn't I want to be shown around some of the best fishing in the province by someone who knows their way around kayaks and fishing both. I'd think it was great if I could confidently approach someone like you with a request for a day of kayak fishing for bass in the Kawarthas. How do I do it without feeling like I'm imposing? By knowing that I can offer to compensate you for your time and knowledge, so I make the request fully prepared to pay a few hundred bux. It makes it a win/win deal. I get some great guiding and tutelage and you come away with a bit of money to buy more flyline, or 'yak paddles, or bits of deerhair and owl scrotum or whatever esoteric pieces of the animal carcass you guys use in yer arcane little fly tying obsession. In the process you get to make new friends, just like the B&B operators. And just like the B&B operators you get to pick and choose your clients and where you will take them.

 

Of course, for those who absolutely do not want anything to do with selling themselves for a silver-crossed palm, there's the unquestioned right to never go commercial. For those who do there always remains the right to quit at any time it's no longer fun.

 

And now I'd better stop this push for commercializing fishing. I hadn't ever meant for it to be a campaign to turn everyone who has over achieved in fishing into a fish hooker, so to speak.

 

JF

Edited December 7, 2009 by JohnF

[limeyangler]

I"LL DO IT!!!!

[Jeff Wiles]

No I live in Canada.

 

Jeff

[torco]

A lot of good points have been raised, especially with the rivers. I guess one thing I could add from customer perspective as I have used guides in the past as its a great way to try some fishing you will not normally do or don't have the means to do regularly.

 

I took advantage of a guide for Lake O salmon and trout, down in Belize to fish the reef, up on Lake Nipissing for walleye and bass, musky fishing in the kawartha's and I took some fly fishing guided lessons on the grand river. These were all treats for me, I would think most customer's come at from this angle. You want to learn and have abit of an adventure while you do it. I love fishing and it doesn't really matter what for.

 

I guess it gets tricky especially with rivers and creeks so easily exposed in southern ontario. It would be really easy to go back to a limited number of spots on a creek east of toronto after being shown it and that would be discouraging.

 

Anyways it has its place on certain bodies of water and hopefully people will continue to do and make a living on it because I know I will probably use it. Would love to go for rainbows on Niagara or whereever the heck solopaddler goes once in my life.

[rhare]

This is an interesting topic and some great points have been made.

 

One thing people are missing here is that it takes more then being even a good fishermen.

Your people skills are 80% of what will keep your clients coming back. If people don't like being around you then it doesn't matter if your the best angler to walk the earth, people wont come back. You have to be able to teach people, sometimes people who don't think they need to be taught You have to make the trip fun! Even if it's a tough day and the fishing is slow, you have to make up for it in other ways.

 

 

There is a reason that some guys make it and some guys don't. Paul Castellano is the best example out there.

He's the #1 guide in Ontario for a number of reasons. He's a deadly angler, a great host and fun to fish with, extremely diverse and most of all he WORKS HIS ASS OFF. He eat,sleeps and breaths fishing.

 

There are TONS of guys out there who are happy to take your money, some are worth every penny and some are just in it for a quick buck.

[trapshooter]

One thing people are missing here is that it takes more then being even a good fishermen.

Your people skills are 80% of what will keep your clients coming back. If people don't like being around you then it doesn't matter if your the best angler to walk the earth, people wont come back. You have to be able to teach people, sometimes people who don't think they need to be taught You have to make the trip fun! Even if it's a tough day and the fishing is slow, you have to make up for it in other ways.

 

That's a great point! If you're not a people person, you're done. You have to be able to read people and adapt to different personalities. Some groups I guide, we're laughing our faces off, while others are dead serious. You have to be ready to guide young children, which takes more time and patience and also cater to the elderly. Heck, I guided an old fella one time who couldn't even get his own rain pants on when it started to pour.... so there I was dressing my guest and making sure he didn't feel bad about it either.

 

A huge element is communication. It's easy to have a great day when you're slamming fish but if things aren't going as well you have to talk through your decisions with your guests and make sure they know you're thinking about every angle and working your ass off to put them on fish. Most people understand that all days aren't created equal and fishing is fishing... but for those who don't and believe that because they hired a guide they are entitled to the best day fishing they've ever had... well, that's different and you have to be able to handle that and make sure they are satisfied too.

[McQ]

I fish and do a bit of guiding on the Gouin Reservoir and have been doing so for the last 29 years.

 

When dealing with a customer of a lodge or my own guests I start things off with a bit of Q & A just to see where the experience level is and make suggestions based on what we share.

 

Starting with a chart of the area we plan to fish and a weather pattern for the previous three days. I explain the affect weather can have on the fish and then relate appropriate areas to fish from the chart. The Gouin like most bodies of water has community holes and I really like to avoid them if possible.

 

The ride out to a target site can take 15 - 30 minutes, I use this time to discuss baits, depths and surrounding structure including shorelines.

 

Upon arrival I usually have a pretty good idea of what skills are in play and what teaching can be employed that will create an experience for the guest.

 

We will fish for three hours or so, take a break for shore lunch (weather permitting) and continue to fish after eating until 4:30 or so. A typical day doesn't exist, everbody's skill level is different and my only goal is to be sure that what transpires in the boat will be of benefit to the guest vitually anywhere he or she may fish in the future.

 

The entire day is non stop free exchange of information and is really appreciated by the guests.

 

If dinner is early and its possible to get out in the evening for a bit of a fish - we go.

 

In general chart reading, sonar interpretation, GPS trails, bait selection & why, equipment, boat control, trolling & jigging methods and many other topics will be covered.

 

Its really amazing when you fish with folks over a period of time and here I mean years who are there because we have fun, fish are caught and most of all a bond has been formed.

 

To me - that's what its all about.

[trapshooter]

I fish and do a bit of guiding on the Gouin Reservoir and have been doing so for the last 29 years.

 

When dealing with a customer of a lodge or my own guests I start things off with a bit of Q & A just to see where the experience level is and make suggestions based on what we share.

 

Starting with a chart of the area we plan to fish and a weather pattern for the previous three days. I explain the affect weather can have on the fish and then relate appropriate areas to fish from the chart. The Gouin like most bodies of water has community holes and I really like to avoid them if possible.

 

The ride out to a target site can take 15 - 30 minutes, I use this time to discuss baits, depths and surrounding structure including shorelines.

 

Upon arrival I usually have a pretty good idea of what skills are in play and what teaching can be employed that will create an experience for the guest.

 

We will fish for three hours or so, take a break for shore lunch (weather permitting) and continue to fish after eating until 4:30 or so. A typical day doesn't exist, everbody's skill level is different and my only goal is to be sure that what transpires in the boat will be of benefit to the guest vitually anywhere he or she may fish in the future.

 

The entire day is non stop free exchange of information and is really appreciated by the guests.

 

If dinner is early and its possible to get out in the evening for a bit of a fish - we go.

 

In general chart reading, sonar interpretation, GPS trails, bait selection & why, equipment, boat control, trolling & jigging methods and many other topics will be covered.

 

Its really amazing when you fish with folks over a period of time and here I mean years who are there because we have fun, fish are caught and most of all a bond has been formed.

 

To me - that's what its all about.

 

Wow, great post!! That's what guiding is all about

[Rustic-Fisher]

I know that I had thought long and hard about starting up a guiding business for river fishing, but finally came to the conclusion that it just wasnt worth it, too many spots to loose. Its one thing if your going to guide from a boat. Not that many people in general have a boat. alot of people cant afford buying a boat or are willing to spend the $ to buy all the gear involved. So spending $$ on a guide that will take you out and show you how its done is well worth it. they'll pay for the experience alone cause ITS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN JUST GO AND DO ON ANY GIVEN DAY. Where as if you go and guide people on rivers.... all they need is the gas $$$ and a car and a bit of walking effort and they will get there!

I think the thing is that with a boat you have so many options where to go, what to fish for, and have a good chunk of the season to fish.

With the Rivers or shore fishing there's only so many public access spots! And i know that there are only room for afew people per hole in most rivers. crowds are never fun on rivers. I know it wouldnt be fun trying to show a newbie how to fish a river or a hole and have other guys casting over lines, and i know id be pissed the first time i took a new client out, drove an hour and half, or couple hours walked a half hour to hit a certain hole and show up at the crack of dawn and have the people you took out last week and 3 of there buddies along for the ride hitting fish in your best hole while your new client is looking at you like what the hell?? And you know what? I cant say I'd blame the guys for going there either! hey.. its public access, ANYONE can fish it!

 

I thik it may be different if it were a large river like the niagra or rivers in BC. but even out there you see the river guides all using drift boats to get to there places.

 

its one thing if the people are flying in or driving from far off places to have a fishing trip of a lifetime, but id be careful when its people in your own backyard.

 

BANG!!!!! Hit the nail right on the head!!!

Like many, I fish a Northern Trib 3-4 times a week(post reports only a few times LOL) River fishing is hit and miss. We all know its a timing thing, sure there will always be that pool that holds fish during low water conditions or that pool that you will pound them in on a Saturday morning all by yourself because of its remote location but introduce a few anglers (paying or not) and say good bye to your sure thing!!

Having worked in the fishing industry for 3 years part time I can't stress how important it is for lack of a better word "to guard" your river spots with your life LOL..

I book a guide service on unknown water don't think for a second I don't have my GPS running and marking all the productive pools, and than going home cross referencing them with google earth and finding the most direct access for when I head back with my fishing buddies whom will never tell anyone LOL. and why would you not! you spent money to get these spots.

Just look at what happens when you post pics of a good Rainbow outing, I am sure everyone gets at least three "just curious where were you PM'S) and I have no problem steering guys in the right direction by offering advice and tips, just not to my honey holes.

I guess in the long run Guiding is a huge responsibility that one take's on when "guiding" other fishermen.

Really consider the impact it will leave on the water shed you choose to guide on, if its what you want GO FOR IT, just put something back in the long run.

RF

Edited December 8, 2009 by Rustic-Fisher

[troutologist]

Maybe I missed this in the fray. But does paying for a guided trip entitle you to clock spots on your GPS. Maybe this is where the only guiding out of town folks comes in. Perhaps if asked some guys will allow this but who knows.

 

Like everyone, using tips and help when fishings new areas is a great starting point but still nothing beats dialing in your own spots.

[DRIFTER_016]

Maybe I missed this in the fray. But does paying for a guided trip entitle you to clock spots on your GPS. Maybe this is where the only guiding out of town folks comes in. Perhaps if asked some guys will allow this but who knows.

 

Like everyone, using tips and help when fishings new areas is a great starting point but still nothing beats dialing in your own spots.

 

 

Marking guides spots with your GPS is generally frowned upon unless it is a remote location (i.e. fly in, canoe in etc)

[lew]

ferget it....

Edited December 8, 2009 by lew

[McQ]

While some folks frown upon marking spots with a GPS waypoint, my personal take when it comes to walleye fishing is that the fish are constantly on the move so today's hotspot could be as vacant as a shopping center parking lot after midnight. Sure there will be some fish but the percentages are against you.

 

The same thing applies to community holes, "they're not biting today" says it all.

 

I prefer to teach a bit of science so you are enabled to locate fish relative to what is happening in their environment regardless the time & place.

[Terry]

I think the word guide implies showing you spots and why wouldn't you take waypoints to help you remember the spots you paid for

 

 

way up north you hire a guide the the first day or two to show you the spots,then fish them the rest of the week, you paid for them and the guide expects you to continue fishing them...

you pay for a guide and they have to expect you to be back

 

think of all those native guides that helped map out Canada..can you see them sitting in the tee pee saying I showed them the route to the north west but they had better not come back

[Jer]

think of all those native guides that helped map out Canada..can you see them sitting in the tee pee saying I showed them the route to the north west but they had better not come back

 

 

I bet the natives wished that they hadn't come back...

[Terry]

yup if only they knew Jacques Cartier was hiding a handheld GPS