The Amusing Irony

[JohnF]

We fishermen complain about various species invading our favourite water systems and decimating the native populations.

 

Do we ever stop to think that man is the ultimate invasive species? Everywhere man has moved on this planet he has altered habitats and eradicated indigenous critters with cavalier disregard for the long term effects.

 

A small part of me can't help but chuckle at our righteous indignation when we see zebra mussels, pike, carp, crappie, gobies and all the others moving into our hallowed grounds. Some of them remain evil while others are ultimately accepted, sometimes with relish.

 

I'm not saying we're wrong to be unhappy about the changes, but we really need to keep it in perspective, and perhaps think about our own invasive tendencies. I for one sure hope the critters don't go into some kind of superevolution and gang up on us as invasive. We'd be in deep doodoo. We may only be the alpha critter temporarily. Think Planet of the Apes.

 

JF

[Garry2Rs]

I thought you were going to be talking about "City Guys" coming up north!

Tossing there Timmies cups and their McD's wrappers, out the window into my ditch...

The beer cans and bottle aren't so bad, I get a dime a piece for them when I clean up.

[bigugli]

"Matinal introspection" eh? Sounds like Catholic hoy polloy for a morning brainfart.

 

No sense trying to blame these various creatures. Every so called "invasive" was transplanted willingly, or unwittingly by human hand. Time will tell the real outcome.

 

However, consider this. Mother nature, in her complexity, is flexible. Evolution is all about adaptation, but it does take time. There is a certain amount of upheaval and ecological instability until nature rebalances. Native species have adapted to the new species and include them in the diet. Small mouth eat gobies, as will perch. Panfish are eating smaller zebra and quagga mussels. Yes we may lose a species or two, like the blue pickerel, but that can result from climate shift and the warming of our more southern lakes.

[blaque]

sometimes with relish.

 

i've also heard gobies can be quite tasty this way, but it has to be the dill not the sweet

[Sugarpacket]

Its true if you think of it man is the most invasive species of all and we are the cause of most problems but nature as a way of adjusting. For example gobbies I never thought anything ate thoes things but when Rich, Splenda and I were out a few weeks ago Splenda had one on his line and a largemouth was on it like a fat kid on a smartie not saying that they are any help to the waters they invade but nature has adapted to them. Zebra mussels and pike on the othere hand mother earth hasn't tackled that one quit yet but eventually it all seems to equal out. oh and on garry2rs its not just city folk that litter almost everyone does it and it does suck but its great that your making some cash off of it

[NAW]

It's an ever changing environment out there.

 

Things are never going to stop changing.

 

There's not a whole lot we can do to stop it. (I'm not saying there's nothing we can do to help this situation)

 

Might as well enjoy whatever aspects of it as we can.

 

Example: I love shooting carp in Simcoe. I don't like the fact that they destroy habitat for other native species. Me shooting a few carp each year isn't going to lower the number enough to make a difference. BUT, I still love shooting them!

[JohnF]

I thought you were going to be talking about "City Guys" coming up north!

Tossing there Timmies cups and their McD's wrappers, out the window into my ditch...

The beer cans and bottle aren't so bad, I get a dime a piece for them when I clean up.

 

That's part of it.

 

But what actually got me thinking about it was the post about turtle nesting season and the difficulties we've created for the turtles in their procreation. Having spent a lot of hours over the last few years fishing the same creeks I played on as a kid in the 50's I can tell you for certain there are fewer turtles of all varieties nowadays in their old haunts. We don't see mudpuppies or Kingfishers any more either. I guess the cormorants are nature's payback.

 

JF

[blaque]

In all seriousness....i see your point. We even introduce,.....purposely,......... non indigenous creatures into what we like to think are "our" own little custom made fisheries.........but the word custom here is exactly that. Its tailored to some, not all. One mans trash is another mans treasure. Some see bass as a garbage fish, and some see carp as a game fish , some see pike as a prize fish.......and some see musky as more valuable. And the exact opposite is true for others. Its all subjective i guess. Im suppporting your post by the way, not sure if its coming off that way lol.

 

Gobies and zebra mussels are a different topic i think. The actual "invasive" species list so to speak. And even these species.....there are some that see them as a positive. Zebra mussles are improving water quality which to some is good...to some its bad. On the same token, they are full of the toxins they filter and some species feed off this. Not good?. Unless its the goby that feeds off of them someday, then it turns into a good thing? Gobies die off? Or is that a bad thing because our shores will be filled with dead rotting disease carrying gobies that will need an emergency clean up? The gobies are also even being looked at positively by many smallmouth anglers on Erie, professional tournament anglers and others. Because the smallmouth gorge on them and it is creating a trophy smally fishery. Its all way too crazy to manage and even think about. Im glad im not a fisheries biologist in this day and age LOL

[huey graphite]

I do see the irony...infact, it's more ironic then a one-legged waitress working at the IHOP.

[pikehunter]

Yes John, I have considered your very thoughts more than once. We have invaded the entire world even areas that cannot naturally support human life. We are the ultimate invader and have destroyed nature everywhere and the natural order every place we go....but then I guess that is just natural....for humans.

[johnnyb]

I don't think we are inavders...as we were put on this earth with the intention of tending to the plants and animals...but we certainly do a poor job of CARING for the earth. Just my $0.02.

[JohnF]

I don't think we are invaders...

 

By the same token neither are the Pike. They're just doing what comes natcherly. Now bunnies in Australia are a different story. It's unlikely they'd have established there but for man's interference. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, like kudzu.

 

JF

[LeXXington]

So, true we put in so many policies to try and regulate a blanace of nature yet we never try to regulate the growth of man. (ok except china)

 

If religion of every form took a back seat for a bit and we tried to slow population growth it might save us as a species in the next 10000 years.. The entire world needs to go on brith control for about 100 years

 

until that happens I am going fishing to reflect on what nature is still free

[JohnF]

So, true we put in so many policies to try and regulate a blanace of nature yet we never try to regulate the growth of man. (ok except china)

 

If religion of every form took a back seat for a bit and we tried to slow population growth it might save us as a species in the next 10000 years.. The entire world needs to go on brith control for about 100 years

 

until that happens I am going fishing to reflect on what nature is still free

 

 

Arguably it's all a form of meddling, and there's always a downside to meddling, even when it's done with the best of intentions.

 

Fishing is good, but hardly free. I just dropped in to the Fishing Store. That always costs me.

 

JF

[tonyb]

Would an abortion be considered an act of green then?

[JohnF]

Would an abortion be considered an act of green then?

 

If they could be done retroactively.

 

JF

[Dara]

I thought you were going to be talking about "City Guys" coming up north!

Tossing there Timmies cups and their McD's wrappers, out the window into my ditch...

The beer cans and bottle aren't so bad, I get a dime a piece for them when I clean up.

 

 

Kawarthas...up north...ha ha..thats rich

[Jonny]

Like most things there's a balance to be struck. We humans have our needs and preferences too. We shouldn't feel guilty about that. The whole issue is a little more visible with animals than with fish, in particular because issues don't impact only those who are after the animals, but the public at large.

 

For example, black bears and people don't mix. When bears exist in areas that people expand into, or if they get into areas where people live, they can cause all sorts of problems, some of them dangerous. We're not going to move over, so the bears have to.

 

Similarly, large populations of deer can impact the general human population because of the increased risk of collisions.

 

Now you can say we created or established the conditions for conflict in the first place, but that's just the way it is.

 

Where populations of animals are endangered we rightly have to protect or otherwise manage them with care. We might even have to subordinate our needs and wishes to the existence of the species.

 

Where populations are healthy and sustainable, and provide an enhancement, we should use them wisely.

 

Where animals are numerous and come into conflict with our needs, we have to control them. Whether it's pike killing off a highly desirable muskie fishery, or cormorants degrading the environment, or bears causing problems for people, we should not feel guilty, or be made to feel guilty, for acting in our own interests, whether for safety or simply for our own preferences .

Edited June 19, 2009 by Jocko

[JohnF]

Like most things there's a balance to be struck. We humans have our needs and preferences too. We shouldn't feel guilty about that. The whole issue is a little more visible with animals than with fish, in particular because issues don't impact only those who are after the animals, but the public at large.

 

For example, black bears and people don't mix. When bears exist in areas that people expand into, or if they get into areas where people live, they can cause all sorts of problems, some of them dangerous. We're not going to move over, so the bears have to.

 

Similarly, large populations of deer can impact the general human population because of the increased risk of collisions.

 

Now you can say we created or established the conditions for conflict in the first place, but that's just the way it is.

 

Where populations of animals are endangered we rightly have to protect or otherwise manage them with care. We might even have to subordinate our needs and wishes to the existence of the species.

 

Where populations are healthy and sustainable, and provide an enhancement, we should use them wisely.

 

Where animals are numerous and come into conflict with our needs, we have to control them. Whether it's pike killing off a highly desirable muskie fishery, or cormorants degrading the environment, or bears causing problems for people, we should not feel guilty, or be made to feel guilty, for acting in our own interests, whether for safety or simply for our own preferences .

 

Who is the final arbiter in deciding when we subordinate to the Grand Plan? Not to be too argumentative, and frankly I suspect we agree on this whole thing, but at what point does man accept subordination to the best interests of the critters. For example, is the protection and advancement of a really good sport fishery (muskies) as important as the natural order of evolution? And again, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm all for great sport fisheries.

 

JF

[Big Cliff]

Go have a cold beer and chill out Solving the worlds problems gets easier the more beer you have LOL.

[JohnF]

Go have a cold beer and chill out Solving the worlds problems gets easier the more beer you have LOL.

 

And it's Friday evening. What a coincidence. I'll take you up on that suggestion, several times.

 

JF

[motv8tr]

Best line in a movie "humans are a virus" from the Matrix...wish I could remember all of it....it's so true in my opinion...

 

as for the beers....I still have to work tomorrow so no go for me....but may partake in a few over the next week as I'm on VACATION!!!

 

Maureen

[JohnF]

Best line in a movie "humans are a virus" from the Matrix...wish I could remember all of it....it's so true in my opinion...

 

as for the beers....I still have to work tomorrow so no go for me....but may partake in a few over the next week as I'm on VACATION!!!

 

Maureen

 

You can let it all hang out at Lakair.

 

JF

[timmeh]

The is an interesting discussion and needs to be taken more seriously than most people do, but it's easier to look the other way and assume there's nothing we can do. I don't think people realize the drastic effects we've caused. I wonder if people will feel the same about invaders when (not if, but when) the asian carp show up in the great lakes. I think then we'll wish we'd have done a lot more to protect our waters.

 

For those who think this is the way nature has always been, you're more than a little off. In the natural world animals take what they need, we take what we want, and too often with no thought of tomorrow.

 

Now i think i'll go have a beer.

[Jonny]

Who is the final arbiter in deciding when we subordinate to the Grand Plan? Not to be too argumentative, and frankly I suspect we agree on this whole thing, but at what point does man accept subordination to the best interests of the critters. For example, is the protection and advancement of a really good sport fishery (muskies) as important as the natural order of evolution? And again, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm all for great sport fisheries.

 

Well in the case of the muskie fishery, we've already messed with the natural progression, as I understand it, by creating a fish-navigable waterway where before there was none (not to mention the changes to the system caused by human habitation and effluent, and artificial water levels, and human harvest of fish). After a certain point, things aren't particularly "natural" any more --- not in the sense of what would have been there if the area had been left untouched. So it becomes a "managed" area.