Buy out

[Cookslav]

Cookslav, i enjoy having this discussion with you

Me too,

This is one of the best N/F threads yet...Completley differing veiws, and pretty civil.

Gotta like that

 

For the most part I think I've said my bit...sounding like a broken record now LOL!

Cheers,

[outllaw]

theres many sound ideas on this thread. but the reprucussions would devastate the country. imagine 75 cent a gallon gas, because nobody can afford a car. asian manufactures would only fill the gap. do you actually think they really care... many of these posts only see the last 25 years of the automotive world. if folks have lived thru the 79-81 era they would see. the automotive and manufacturing sectors leaped ahead with loan restructuring.. the largest issue from my view is rampant offshore un-balanced trade.. . . as for auto workers reaping incredible wages, they spend there dollars here in canada. not sending their profits offshore.. and yes there tax dollars go for what we all receive in goverment programs, donations to red cross, united way. yes the list goes on..

[albany_guide]

I agree that the short term consequences would be ugly. I don't want to diminish that. I am not insensitive to the amount of people who will be out of work when the big three fail. Here is the reality though. If the big three were to fail either a new car company would emerge or one of the foreign companies would buy a number of the factories and continue production. Not everyone will lose their jobs indefinitely. There is still demand, just not enough to sustain the big three as we know them.

 

The most responsible thing to do is to let them fail and then give some money to help a new car company start up that is not so poorly run. We should not be rewarding this type of mismanagement and short sightedness.

 

Think of it this way. If the government had continued to bail out the east coast fishery, they would still today be a poorly managed and unsustainable 'industry' that was in need of perpetual cash infusions every few years. Did it hurt when the fishery collapsed? Of course! Are they better off for it today? Definitely! They are now a 'have' province since they have refocused their production base towards other industries, namely energy. We will do the same here in Ontario. We'll emerge from this much stronger in a few years if the government does the right thing. If not, the big three will continue to slither back to the government 'teet' looking for more cash to burn.

[holdfast]

Sir Fish

Got to disagree with you. Why should you get a handout so you can make 35 to 70 dollars an Hour. Incompetent CEOs making millions. Time for a pay cut. Where is this money actually going to go. Betcha you get a raise before the Taxpayer gets his back. Lets see, crap cars, overpaid workers, annual millionaire CEOs, mis-management, telling Americans not to sell to Canadians because they're too greedy to devalue the car when our Dollar was Par. By the way a Sgt in Kandahar makes half than what you do, but he pays into unemployment but is not allowed to receive it if he is gets out. No need to use Misfish to gang up on me either

[outllaw]

funny how its a handout. the monies would be re-payed. . its sad to see this fall upon the worker. has anyone perceived to look upon pensioners losing there source of income, benefits. its not that they can get another job. they worked to build canada. oh well its a throw away society. i guess everyone will get a turn. but dont whine when your turn comes.. maybe when you see folks in a food bank line , you can ask for a cut..

[albany_guide]

funny how its a handout. the monies would be re-payed. . its sad to see this fall upon the worker. has anyone perceived to look upon pensioners losing there source of income, benefits. its not that they can get another job. they worked to build canada. oh well its a throw away society. i guess everyone will get a turn. but dont whine when your turn comes.. maybe when you see folks in a food bank line , you can ask for a cut..

 

 

You are absolutely delusional if you think that money will ever be repayed

[bigugli]

I think we can all agree that Canada and the U.S. of A. will be travelling a rough road the next few years. We are not going to be the ones solving the problems despite any good that comes from this discussion. The politicians won't give a tinker's damn for what we think. There is also no good that comes from all the feuding. Bottom line, we, as a society, got greedy and must now pay the piper.

So for a minute take a hard lesson from the history books. Eighty years ago the crash of '29' brought on two decades of hard times and strife. The rich survived and flourished despite what was happening to the rest of society. But what about the regular shmucks like us.

People like us got through it, survived, and still lived life to the fullest. They just became a lot more realistic about things. They worried about the things that mattered most. Despite the depression, and the war that followed, they worked harder, tightened their belts, worked together and took care of their own. My Grampa was known, sometimes with Gram's diapproval, for always helping his neighbours. If he had a good day on Simcoe and caught a bushel of whities my Grampa would share it with the neighbours. Same with smelt or perch. Gram got mad because she had cleaned all them fish first He would think nothing of leaving a quarter from some animal on a friends doorstep because they could not afford to buy meat. Four men would scrape together every penny to run out for the duck hunt and share 1 box of shells between them. My uncle took payment for jobs in produce to barter down in Simcoe.

Anybody who fought knows that survival required teamwork and co-operation. You didn't do it on your own.

We may just have to relearn those lessons.

Edited November 18, 2008 by bigugli

[Cookslav]

the reprucussions would devastate the country.

 

I think it will only devastate those are are not prepared, and those who cannot or will not be able to adapt to the changes.

One thing for sure...Its coming one way or the other.

The buy out only prolongs the unavoidable.

So why waste federal reserves up on a temp solution that could potentially help prop up social services in an impending and prolonged crisis?

 

If I honestly felt the buy out would fix the situation I'd say go for it...

Its been turned down for a good reason...its not a sustainable solution.

 

One of the most impactfull, non bias, and truthful statement WAY back on the first page of this thread speaks volumes to how to survive the impending crunch. It came from Ted & the Gadget....

 

1) we need to stop living beyond our means

2) & develop value that cannot be off-shored - e.g post secondary education in engineering, law, medicine, etc...

 

Smart stuff right there.

[Bernie]

What happens to the smaller industry and business that has to survive recessions? They downsize and reduce production to save. Reduction in wages/income will go along with it. Mom and pop operations get the shaft again. No government handouts here.

[outllaw]

albany guide. when chrylser borrowed money from the goverments it was re-payed. actually in 2 years in full. do some serious checking.. never the less theres some serious polarized views here. . the canadian goverment will not commit till the u.s goverment has finalized their talks..

[danc]

I don't think you can make blanket statements about all unions. The Trade Unions (construction trades)are a completely different thing than the unions in the manufacturing sector.

 

I am now employed by the Union and am proud of this. I can tell you that no one is lazy, protected for the wrong reasons, or overpaid!

We all work long hours and give it everything we have! I think you will find this in most Trade Unions. I would think that DanC for example works damn hard for his money and deserves every penny of it. He is trained and highly skilled. Working conditions would make some people cringe! People in our industry who can't cut it, are unemployed!

 

Let's just be careful of using too wide of a brush when painting some of these pictures!

 

I'm not sure that the trade unions belong in this debate Rattletrap2. You and I know that. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Here's my story. When I graduated from high school, I wanted to work with my hands and my mind, and of course I wanted to make a good buck. So I chose a unionized trade. It's turned out to be a great choice, for me anyways. I've made a decent buck along the way. I have great benefits. A couple of pension plans which should easily let me go fishing every day after I turn 58. And I'm supposed to feel guilty about this? I planned for my future and things are going well.

 

I have pride in my work. I often find that I don't have enough time in the day to accomplish what I want to. My union doesn't babysit me. In fact, in 31 years I've never had to rely on my union to solve an issue or provide a job for me. If I didn't produce, I'd be "on the books", which means I'd be looking for work. Currently I'm running a 1.8 million dollar renovation job at a local Ontario government building. I bid the job. I ordered the equipment. I picked all of the 14 sub contractors. It's my baby. Often I wake up at 3 or 4 am thinking about the job. I never fall back to sleep again when that happens. But I'll get it done on time and on budget. Would I be doing this for anything less than union wages and benefits? Not a chance. I made my bed and I'll lie in it. I suggest that everyone else quit whining and do the same.

[irishfield]

Well hurry up Dan. I don't know if I can wait 8 years to wake up on any given day... find that the sun is out and know that I don't need to call you in advance so that I can pop in on Nipigon and find you there chasing Brookies! LOL

Edited November 18, 2008 by irishfield

[danc]

Well hurry up Dan. I don't know if I can wait 8 years to wake up on any given day... find that the sun is out and know that I don't need to call you in advance so that I can pop in on Nipigon and find you there chasing Brookies! LOL

 

Ahemmm... Make that a tad more than 7 years Wayne. By the way, I finally downloaded that landing of yours on Nipigon. You can find it HERE

[irishfield]

HAHAHA

[workwear]

i wonder if that wing was assembled at a UNIONIZED plant......

[irishfield]

It was assembled in someones kitchen... it's a remote control Aircraft.

[danc]

i wonder if that wing was assembled at a UNIONIZED plant......

 

Riveted or welded??

[Bernie]

Riveted or welded??

 

I don't know Dan but he was pretty good with the tiller.

[misfish]

Well Im sure the gate keeper is on his way now.

 

I stand by what I stated on my first post. The unions are the time of the past and the times are changing.

For you that wish to serve the union masters,best of luck to you. Im thinking the ones that have been with them for years will be ok,but the ones that have just hooked up with them,well,you better give yer head a shake and get with it.

Myself,I,ll keep working my job honestly and work hard and bust my for an honest dollar. I earn an honest dollar without some suit earning it for me. Yes the union set the bar,but see ya.

 

 

Cookslav,your posts I enjoyed the most of all. I cant say to many words about what you said,but I do understand what you said.LOL

 

 

Thanks again to all that posted. Lets just hope what ever happens to the worker,it,s better for all.

 

Later

 

Brian

 

Go Leafs Go.

 

Oh wait thier unionized too. LOL

 

 

Oh this one made me laugh.

 

funny how its a handout. the monies would be re-payed.

 

When thier not in bussiness anymore,HOW DO THEY PAY IT BACK????????????????????????????????????

Edited November 19, 2008 by misfish

[danc]

Myself,I,ll keep working my job honestly and work hard and bust my for an honest dollar.

 

That's my motto too Brian. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Fisherman]

Well Im sure the gate keeper is on his way now.

 

I stand by what I stated on my first post. The unions are the time of the past and the times are changing.

For you that wish to serve the union masters,best of luck to you. Im thinking the ones that have been with them for years will be ok,but the ones that have just hooked up with them,well,you better give yer head a shake and get with it.

Myself,I,ll keep working my job honestly and work hard and bust my for an honest dollar. I earn an honest dollar without some suit earning it for me. Yes the union set the bar,but see ya.

Cookslav,your posts I enjoyed the most of all. I cant say to many words about what you said,but I do understand what you said.LOL

Thanks again to all that posted. Lets just hope what ever happens to the worker,it,s better for all.

 

Later

 

Brian

 

Go Leafs Go.

 

Oh wait thier unionized too. LOL

Oh this one made me laugh.

When thier not in bussiness anymore,HOW DO THEY PAY IT BACK????????????????????????????????????

Funnier yet, their last bail out doesn't have to start to be paid back until 2055, are they hoping the bankers and Gov't will forget by then. Either the Gov't supports everything from Mom & Pops Pizza going out of business to the Big 3 or nothing at all, no favourites. Can't swim...sink.

[misfish]

Myself,I,ll keep working my job honestly and work hard and bust my for an honest dollar.

 

 

That's my motto too Brian. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

Edited November 19, 2008 by misfish

[ch312]

this is exactly why you should choose the job opportunity that does NOT have a union. they do nothing for you except cause problems, take your money, and make themselves look like whiney little girls.

 

a company i use to work for had about 25 guys doing concrete. the guys were working long hours, and making a lot of money. a year or 2 after we stopped working for them, the employees voted for a union even though the owner did not want to. for a few months the guys were all happy that they were making more money hourly, but everything had to be legit. no more cash overtime for weekends, holidays, etc. to sum it up, most the guys there are now unhappy and none of them want to work anymore because the union screwed everything up. everyone turned lazy and didnt want to work hard anymore because the union said they didnt have to overly exert themselves anymore.

 

then again, are unions even good for anything? seems like all i ever hear is people whining about them. my grandpa has always said the same thing "anyone who wants to join a union is a lazy ass and is afraid of hard work." id have to agree with him when you hear some of the things union workers whine about.

 

you accept a job with a union, you get no sympathy from me.

 

 

as for this money the automakers want, i say screw them. its their own fault they dug themselves into such a deep rut. poor quality, bad designs, and horrible fuel economy are whats bringing them down. they need to get with the times to even compare to "imports". drop the prices of these vehicles. the big dudes dont need to be making that much money and neither to the workers. most are overpaid for what they do.

Edited November 19, 2008 by ch312

[albany_guide]

albany guide. when chrylser borrowed money from the goverments it was re-payed. actually in 2 years in full. do some serious checking.. never the less theres some serious polarized views here. . the canadian goverment will not commit till the u.s goverment has finalized their talks..

 

Check your own facts outlaw. To say it was 'repaid' is putting it loosely. It was repaid by issuing more bonds. If I borrow $20 from you and then 'pay' you back by borrowing the $20 from someone else, is that showing you that I am managing my funds well? At what point does that end? It is a flawed business model, which is exactly why they're back asking for more.

If they are so fiscally responsible, explain how the big three are collectively burning billions of dollars a month.

[OhioFisherman]

but everything had to be legit? LOL I don`t know how your system works up there. We have a social security retirement-disability plan here in the states.

 

Cash money maybe nice if you use it wisely, most people I have seen here make it and use it. No money paid into the social security plan for it, they don`t bother putting it into a 401k. Ours is based on legit income, money you don`t report doesn`t increase what you get for a retirement check, or disability income if something should happen to you to cut short your working career.

 

LOL I have friends and even family members that went the cash money way, now whining that they only will get 600-700 a month from social security and can`t retire.

 

Might seem like a good deal now but it can screw you up later. Every job I took was legit, just made more sense to me.