Big game hunting

[Riparian]

First off let me say that I do not hunt, and i do not have a problem with hunting at all. But I have a question for all the big game hunters out there.

 

When I fish, I release all large trophy fish back into the wild because I belive that these fish need to spawn and reproduce because these are the genes that need to survive to the next generation of fish. But in the case of hunting, Lets use deer hunting as an example, it seems that the main target is the largest male animal with the most developed rack. It seems to me that over time, constantly removing the prime genes will cause a degredation in the quality of the animals over say, several decades. Does this not happen? shouldnt the animals that show the best survival in the wild be allowed to reproduce to spawn the next generation of prime animals?

 

Im just inquiring to people who actually do hunt, as I have no experience in the matter at all.

[canadianguy33]

I don't hunt, but I'll put my two cents in anyways, as I think this is a very interesting question.

 

The idea of what is a "trophy" fish or "trophy" moose will always be relative to what's out there in the wild. This same line of logic can be applied to genetics. The "prime" genes for a moose, deer, or any other big game is relative. I mean, if all the hunters are going after the big moose, wouldn't it be beneficial to be a small moose?

 

I guess my point is that we can't really predetermine what the "prime" genes are, because the "prime" genes one day just might not be the same today, as they would be 100 years from now. That's the beauty of evolution.

[verno]

Lets use deer hunting as an example, it seems that the main target is the largest male animal with the most developed rack.

That mentality is alive and well on the TV shows for sure. Trophy hunters are trophy hunters if they are in a deer stand or a boat. Either way they will kill a trophy to hang it on the wall.

There are a lot of guys interested in quality deer management out in the bush during the fall. Guys will take "management bucks" or does to keep the population healthy. I'm no expert on how the system works. And I'm sure there are others that will be able to explain it better. But the ethical guys in your boat will be the ethical guy in his tree stand for the most part. Last year my only shot at a deer came on a doe. She was just at the edge of my comfort zone so I let her walk by rather than risk not killing her clean.

The other thing to remember is those big old bucks dont get big and old by hanging out in front of treestands. They are sharp, and to get a good shot at one you have to beat all of their senses and instinct.

[misfish]

If it,s brown,it,s down.

Im hunting for the meat.If it happens to big a huge trophy buck that walks in on me,it,s a bonus.

The bush I hunt dosent support a large number,but does holda couple of 14 pointers that go over 250. I see them,but like Verno said,they dont get that way for nothing.

 

 

Good question. rip

[turtle]

The older, larger bucks with the biggest baskets are the usually the hardest to take or even see. They have survived 4-5 or more hunting seasons as well as the natural predators. Some are taken every year but the majority harvested are less experienced and less cautious younger bucks and does. The other factor to consider is that a dominant buck can mate with more than one doe.

[ch312]

by the time a trophy animal has become a trophy, he has spread his genes quite a bit when it comes to deer, most trophy bucks are taken during the rut after they've likely bred a few does before you get to see him...

[Big Cliff]

Good thread, and some good responses!

 

I am a meat hunter/fisherman so I don't target trophies, the bigger fish go back so they can spawn again. If I am hunting and have a choice of shots I am very selective, I won't take a doe that has young fawns with her because it reduces the likelyhood that they will survive. My choice if I have it one is a young buck, but I will take a young doe if she appears not to have young fawns with her.

 

I think it is important to remember that only the very dedicated and most skilled (or very lucky) people ever do get a "trophy" deer or moose.

[BITEME]

If it,s brown,it,s down.

Im hunting for the meat.If it happens to big a huge trophy buck that walks in on me,it,s a bonus.

The bush I hunt dosent support a large number,but does holda couple of 14 pointers that go over 250. I see them,but like Verno said,they dont get that way for nothing.

Good question. rip

 

 

Im with the brown its down

[Jay T]

I don't think it will hurt the genes, because that buck that maybe the dominant buck at the time but has probably bred a dozen or so does in the 3-4 years, so his genetics will live on anyways. Most of the time the larger bucks when chasing the younger bucks away from his lady or ladies, another smaller buck will seek up and give her one for anyways.

Deer are not stupid by any means and any hunter knows this, them big old swamp bucks just know something is wrong even when you think you got everything in your advantage, I swear they have a sixth sence .

Myself I give the first couple weeks of the season to check out how many does and how many bucks we have on our private land, then I will make a dissision whether to shoot a buck or a doe. Usually I target the bigger bucks so the smaller ones get to grow and get bigger for years to come, but it doesn't always work out that way.

I too hunt for meat and fill the freezer with what ever I can harvest during the seasons, moose, bear, deer, rabbits, ducks ect.... Love the wild game meat

Hunting is a sport that not too many people get involed in anymore, and most people think it is crule. It is no different that someone going to the store and buying a steak, the only difference is I worked hard for it and I killed it with my own hands, not a butcher to do it for me. I also process all my animals that I harvest.

[tinbanger]

The camp I hunt out of has been in existence since early 1900's

 

we have written records from eary 40's and one (still active member) has hunted that camp since late 40 's .

 

The deer numbers ( sighting and harvested) seem to fluctuate over the years.

40s and fiftys a deer would be shot first day for meat for the week .They were so confident that the only meat brought in was bacon.

80's when I started to hunt we didn't even see a deer some years

Last 12 years or so we have had at least 1-2 deer ( sometimes more)

 

As far as size goes , we still see some big 200 plus lb deer .2 shot in the last 7-8 years

These are Ottawa valley deer , not fattened farm deer.

 

Pressure has increased esp with the advent of atvs.

Our memebers are aging and we have not hunted with a dog in the last 10 years .

 

I think like most hunters we hunt for a) the experience the meat

 

TB

[Tacklebuster]

For 10 yrs we flew into the same hunt camp in the Temagami area for our moose. Since we used an outfitter we always had our tag, and for the first few years we always chose a bull tag. After several years in a row of getting our moose, and with all of us having bagged our trophy's, we made a decission to only go for the smaller ones even if it meant letting the large bull go and going home empty handed. We reasoned that it would enhance our overal hunt experience by being selective (which it did), force us to become better hunters (which it did), potentially have a positive effect on the overall population, we were also tired of lugging 200-250lb quarters 3-5 miles through the bush (another good incentive), and the meat on the younger moose is better. At first it was difficult, because your first intinct when you see that large trophy in your site, is to take it down. Of course, the first year that we agreed to this, my partner sees the largest bull moose compared to the ones we bagged in the past (and they were not small). I was completely impressed that he let it go. Several days later we got our moose, it was a small calf, which was the first time any of us had ever seen one. Up until our last hunt at that location, we got our moose every year, and every year we let the larger ones go. I think however we were in a very unique situation where selective harvesting was feasible and enjoyable. Now however, since we haven't flown in and we also haven't drawn a tag for the past five years, given the opportunity (meaning if we had a tag) I wouldn't hesitate to take down the first moose I see regardless of size. However, if I see two at the same time, I would always take down the smaller one, simply because the meat is better. I think very few hunters have the unique opportunity that we had to selectively harvest moose. It is also something that everyone in the hunt group has to be in agreement with. Through the moose tag draw system (bull, cow, or calf), the ministry tries to control or effect the moose population within each WMU (wildlife management unit), and the same is for deer. The majority of tags go to groups, and with many groups consisting of 4 up to 15 hunters and even more, with only 1 tag, selective harvesting of moose is not realistic. Since many hunters are lucky if they see a moose, it again isn't realistic, nor do I feel it is necessary. As for deer, the population is booming, and in fact is hurting the moose population is some areas, so again I do not feel it is necessary.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tackle Buster

[misfish]

As for deer, the population is booming, and in fact is hurting the moose population is some areas, so again I do not feel it is necessary.

 

I find it the other way around TB . Where there was an abundent of deer,the numbers are down.The moose numbers in the area have risin. Moose push the deer out.

[Tacklebuster]

I find it the other way around TB . Where there was an abundent of deer,the numbers are down.The moose numbers in the area have risin. Moose push the deer out.

 

 

Too my knowledge, deer push the moose out. The primary reason for the number of tags decreasing in our WMU (40) is due to the decline in the moose population, which is due to the increasing presence of deer. The reason the deer push the moose out, is due to some kind of larva (I think its commonly known as "brain worm") that can be present in deer feces (which does not harm deer) which is deadly to moose. When its in the water, and is subsequently enters a moose when it feeding or drinking, it literally goes to its brain and eats it, which of course is certain death to the moose.

[Jay T]

After several years in a row of getting our moose, and with all of us having bagged our trophy's, we made a decission to only go for the smaller ones even if it meant letting the large bull go and going home empty handed.

 

 

You must be a gun hunter, not that there is anything wrong with that. I only bowhunt for moose but if I would have gone in the gun season I am sure I will fill my tag each year also. We haven't gotten a moose for two years now, come real close but luck was not in our favour.

Going in 28 days for our anual fly-in moose hunting trip.... I can't wait.

 

As for the moose pushing the deer out, oh so true. Who would want to tango with almost a 1000lb moose with only horns. I would't like to see that fight .

[Tacklebuster]

for interest sake, here is a link in regards to the "brain worm"

 

http://www.unbc.ca/nlui/wildlife_diseases/...ylus_tenuis.htm

 

also taken from the below url in regard to the effect of deer on moose populations in Algonquin Park:

 

In 1964, wildlife researcher Roy Anderson, of the University of Guelph, discovered a link between a parasite called Brainworm (Parelaphostrongylus tenuis) which lived in White-tailed Deer with seemingly no ill-effects, and Algonquin's Moose. The worm is passed from the deer out through their feces. Snails feeding on the feces ingest the worm and Moose that accidentally eat an infected snail while browsing then become infected. This 8-centimetre-long round worm eventually kills Moose that have ingested it. (For more on the life cycle of the Brainworm see The Elucidation of the Biology of the Meningeal Worm.) It was this relationship that helped to explain one of the reasons why the Moose population fluctuates so dramatically in Algonquin Park, and in other areas where Moose and White-tailed Deer coexist. In Algonquin Park in the early 1900s, when the population of deer was high, the Moose population likely suffered from the effects of Brainworm. However, when populations of deer dropped in Algonquin as a result of thicker forests, there were fewer deer to pass Brainworms onto Moose living in the same area. Therefore, as deer populations fluctuate, so do the numbers of Brainworms in the environment and thus the number of Moose

 

http://www.sbaa.ca/projects.asp?cn=315

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tackle Buster

[Jay T]

Thanks for the links, interesting facts.

[misfish]

Thanks alot for the link TB

[Fishnfiend]

I don't think it will hurt the genes, because that buck that maybe the dominant buck at the time but has probably bred a dozen or so does in the 3-4 years, so his genetics will live on anyways. Most of the time the larger bucks when chasing the younger bucks away from his lady or ladies, another smaller buck will seek up and give her one for anyways.

 

 

Bang on.

[TJQ]

I hunt like misfish.. if its brown its down.. if its black, its on it back. I hunt for meat, not for "trophys" Although I would be lying if I didn't say I hope a big one steps out.. Everything I harvest is a trophy cause they all have there own special stories... big or small.

 

That being said I was on a caribou hunt a few years ago, and my guide was a biologist, who indeed did say the especially with the woodland caribou, cause their racks are smaller anyway, that there has been a tendency over the years for the racks to be gradually decreasing in size, which only make sense to me.... Caribou arnt like deer... hunting wise, they are more like ducks, so bigger rack doesn't mean smarter animal....

[Tacklebuster]

rack size is directly related to habitat, forage, animal age, and the severity and length of the winter.

[misfish]

I hunt like misfish.. if its brown its down..

 

I just knew it,we are brothers from other mothers. LOL

 

 

Good read here.

[Canuck2fan]

I don't hunt anymore but to me if you have the tag and need the meat you bag what you see. For hunters doing it more for the challenge not taking big males of any species in the animal world only makes sense from the stand point that the meat might not be as good as a younger male. Why do I say this for one reason in all of nature there is no truer saying than this. Eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap. Not something I like to hear as a male myself but if you study it, it is very true. Any male strong enough to mate in either the deer or moose population will almost certainly have the genes necessary to carry that species on. The real work is almost always done by the female in nature that is to not only produce the young but to feed and nuture it through to maturity.... That is why to me it would be best to leave most mature breeding females alone. That is my take on it anyhow.

[Crazyhook]

I used to hunt only for rack size as well!