Is the future electric?

[BassMan11]

35 minutes ago, AKRISONER said:

You said it yourself…you indeed do

 

Right... so who cares about the 6.6 million or so Canadians to where all battery everything wouldn't work. 

As for the ice auger.... I can get in board with that.... but it's a $700-$900 ice auger... about $200-$300 more expensive that a gas auger. I use a drill myself. 

2 hours ago, scuro2 said:

All those prices you listed are all way on the high side. The thing is you buy your snow blower with two batteries and now you buy all your other tools without batteries. Now the other electric tools are cheaper then their gas counterparts and they are much cheaper to run and maintain.  Base model EGO snowblower is $899. Electric tools are perfect for a good majority of the population. There are plenty of EV SUVs at $50000 all in and they qualify for a $5000 EV grant. Hybrid plug ins with 80kms of range also. You have gas but if you do all your driving in your community you can mostly run off of the battery. People are doing this type of math and choosing this because it makes economical sense for them. I get it, not for you.

I'm not sure what you mean by electric generator? Do you mean a solar backup battery? If you need a generator you need a generator regardless of electrical tools. I did not get a solar backup battery. You would need an expensive battery to power your air conditioner. One option I was looking at was installing a switch to your furnace that could hook up to a car battery. You could power your furnace for a while if there was a blackout in the winter. I wonder if anyone on this board has done this? That is the big worry, the cold instead of heat.

I do get what your saying if you live out in the country, I'd be doing exactly what you are doing but realistically you are definitely in a minority. The rural population is about 14% of the overall population. Likely much higher on this forum!

 

The tools are not on the high end... they are what a decent item costs in the battery world. I cited tools from Milwaukee, Ego, Sthil (battery), and an Ecoflow - Delta 6500w electric generator (which are awesome). Not many people who live north of Barrie would have a single stage snow blower so I stand by my Ego $2500 2 stage snow blower. And for the maintenance.. you still have  belts, bearings, drivetrain, shear pins, axels, and rust that all need to be tended to. So is it really that much less yearly maintenance? I guess you don't have to do an oil change? Plus yearly v-power and seafoam which can also be used in other engines throughout the year. 

I'm really not against the transition for most things as an option... but extremes like what they are doing in California for example seem ridiculous.

I'm fine with being the minority... it's quieter out here.... just shouldn't mean I don't matter. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by BassMan11

[scuro2]

38 minutes ago, BassMan11 said:

Right... so who cares about the 6.6 million or so Canadians to where all battery everything wouldn't work.....

I'm really not against the transition for most things as an option... but extremes like what they are doing in California for example seem ridiculous.

I'm fine with being the minority... it's quieter out here.... just shouldn't mean I don't matter.

Your price estimate on the snowblower is still high even for the two stage. At Lowes for $2000.

But the real issue of course is cost. Global warming is costing us already with crop failures and extreme weather events and insurance. These costs impact everyone no matter where you live. Now imagine the prairies being a permanent dust bowl. Real flooding in much of Florida and other low lying areas. That is coming sooner then later and that is when we are really going to pay. Conservative means to conserve and not waste money. It means to maintain and do things better. Economically I am definitely conservative. I've voted conservative several times. The Conservatives should be leading the charge. They can definitely do it better the Trudeau but if I see repeal the carbon tax there is no way I am voting conservative.

How do you do it? How do you cut green house gas emissions? It's going to to require a move away from fossil fuels. I see no reason why you can't take into account your address when raising the price of fuel. I live in a city of 30000. I saw a women driving a Hummer. She had high heels on and was 5 ft tall. I'm sure her driveway is short and paved. That sort of lunacy has to be curtailed. If not a hummer I see plenty of huge expensive trucks in driveways for people who don't have a job requiring a truck. Most of these vehicles are spotless, no wear and tear.

It's got to be a group effort like hydrocarbons and the Ozone layer was. The carbon tax is the solution offered by the brightest minds in the world. It likely will not be enough. Too little too late.



 

Edited February 7, 2023 by scuro2

[AKRISONER]

You’re fighting a losing battle if you are still needing to convince folks that 1. Climate change is real

And 2. That it’s human caused

despite mounds of irrefutable science,  even the oil companies have finally admitted that it’s the real deal. Alas we are in the age of “well I know better”

one thing is certain, change is hard for people.

Edited February 7, 2023 by AKRISONER

[BassMan11]

1 hour ago, scuro2 said:

Your price estimate on the snowblower is still high even for the two stage. At Lowes for $2000.

But the real issue of course is cost. Global warming is costing us already with crop failures and extreme weather events and insurance. These costs impact everyone no matter where you live. Now imagine the prairies being a permanent dust bowl. Real flooding in much of Florida and other low lying areas. That is coming sooner then later and that is when we are really going to pay. Conservative means to conserve and not waste money. It means to maintain and do things better. Economically I am definitely conservative. I've voted conservative several times. The Conservatives should be leading the charge. They can definitely do it better the Trudeau but if I see repeal the carbon tax there is no way I am voting conservative.

How do you do it? How do you cut green house gas emissions? It's going to to require a move away from fossil fuels. I see no reason why you can't take into account your address when raising the price of fuel. I live in a city of 30000. I saw a women driving a Hummer. She had high heels on and was 5 ft tall. I'm sure her driveway is short and paved. That sort of lunacy has to be curtailed. If not a hummer I see plenty of huge expensive trucks in driveways for people who don't have a job requiring a truck. Most of these vehicles are spotless, no wear and tear.

It's got to be a group effort like hydrocarbons and the Ozone layer was. The carbon tax is the solution offered by the brightest minds in the world. It likely will not be enough. Too little too late.



 

Its a complicated issue to which I don't think anyone has a real grasp on how to solve. What I do know is if Canada was to emit 0-C02 emissions .. there would still be 98.5% of the problem to sort out. Have the real heavy hitters make significant progress and maybe then we can fine tune some stuff on our end. Until then... I feel like I am doing enough already. 

Needs to be curtailed? Yikes. Do you really need a Truck? do you really need that boat? Do you really need to burn wood? Do you really need to mow your lawn 5 times a week? Do you really need to keep your house 25 in the winter?...  Where does that end? 

Until Private Jet travel is looked at... please leave me alone. 

But anyway... we are way off topic here... sorry to the OP.

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by BassMan11

[CrowMan]

"but extremes like what they are doing in California for example seem ridiculous"

I was in LA in the late '80's on a business trip. During the week I was there, there was a temperature inversion trapping all the smog in the LA basin. This was before the stricter emissions regulations had kicked in. I was hacking up brown crud for the next week after...and I was a smoker then, so my lungs were already "broken in". The air there was literally killing 1000's of people a year...they had to do something.

Yes..even small steps help. Countries like China are still building coal-fired generating plants daily, but does that mean we just throw our hands up in the air ? To me, that's the same mentality as...I'll just throw that Tim's cup out the window, because the roadside is already full of trash.

It's apparent that we can't just continue on the path we're on and ignore the science. At some point, we have to do something. Do we just keep kicking the can down the road, or start to do at least something. I've got four grandkids...do I just toss the problem in their lap ?

 

 

 

[captpierre]

39 minutes ago, CrowMan said:

"but extremes like what they are doing in California for example seem ridiculous"

I was in LA in the late '80's on a business trip. During the week I was there, there was a temperature inversion trapping all the smog in the LA basin. This was before the stricter emissions regulations had kicked in. I was hacking up brown crud for the next week after...and I was a smoker then, so my lungs were already "broken in". The air there was literally killing 1000's of people a year...they had to do something.

Yes..even small steps help. Countries like China are still building coal-fired generating plants daily, but does that mean we just throw our hands up in the air ? To me, that's the same mentality as...I'll just throw that Tim's cup out the window, because the roadside is already full of trash.

It's apparent that we can't just continue on the path we're on and ignore the science. At some point, we have to do something. Do we just keep kicking the can down the road, or start to do at least something. I've got four grandkids...do I just toss the problem in their lap ?

 

 

 

Ah, those grandkids. I’ve got 9 so far. 
Our legacy will be a polluted planet and a massive government debt. Nevermind that fishing is now lousy compared to when I was a kid. Unless of course you have $5000 worth of electronics on your boat.  😎

[scuro2]

1 hour ago, BassMan11 said:

Its a complicated issue to which I don't think anyone has a real grasp on how to solve. What I do know is if Canada was to emit 0-C02 emissions .. there would still be 98.5% of the problem to sort out. Have the real heavy hitters make significant progress and maybe then we can fine tune some stuff on our end. Until then... I feel like I am doing enough already. 

Needs to be curtailed? Yikes. Do you really need a Truck? do you really need that boat? Do you really need to burn wood? Do you really need to mow your lawn 5 times a week? Do you really need to keep your house 25 in the winter?...  Where does that end? 

Until Private Jet travel is looked at... please leave me alone.

It's not complicated at all.  The link of rising temperatures to green house gases is irrefutable. Humour me, assume this is totally true and projections are accurate.

We are the number one emitter of CO2 per capita and the 7th largest emitter globally. That is not insignificant. Granted there are reasons for this but guess what China is going to say if we make zero progress and they want to keep their coal power plants. You do it together or it doesn't get done. You can "pay" now or pay many multiples more in the future.

The question isn't, "do you really need". It's more shaping behaviour through market forces. I don't know why any fossil fuel is subsidized by any government. Gradually make it more expensive to buy gas. Do it so that ALL the taxes collected go directly to all citizens. Less people will buy an ICE Hummer. More people will buy fuel efficient vehicles, perhaps a plug in hybrid or an EV. At some point GM will drop the ICE Hummer line. We saw this in the 70s where people no longer wanted the big gas guzzlers. So it will be again.
 

Edited February 8, 2023 by scuro2

[aplumma]

We seem to have gone from arguing facts to pressing our opinions. Everyone can have their own opinion. The one you hold works for you so it is the correct answer for you. Others have different life styles and need that are directly opposite of what works for you. So either we respect others views without condoning them or we lock the thread.

Art

[scuro2]

18 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

I’m not throwing away my gas stuff but when it’s time to reinvest in outdoor power stuff, battery makes sense if the costs are comparable, especially since all tools can share the same batteries. 
 

the ice auger I used this weekend is better than gas in ever single way.

We moved from a city house to a lot that is two thirds forest. I bought a lot of electric tools and can comment on them.

Snow blower - We have a 60ft double driveway. It was only challenged when we had  15inches of snow. The opening of the mouth is smaller than that but it got the job done. It just took longer and I couldn’t complete it all in one go. You could buy a bigger two stage model.

Pole saw - I'd never buy a gas one.

Weed wacker - I'd never buy a gas one

hedge trimmer - I'd never buy a gas one

Chain saw - it is limited by the length of the blade. I think they top out around 18 inches. The batteries would wear down quickly with say oak that is 3ft thick and you are constantly cutting. I live on ravine and it does 95% of my jobs well. If I have really big stuff I call my brother and we use his gas saw.

Lawn mower - for most lawns it’s great. It’s not economical to cut your grass when it is really long. It will do the job but burn through the battery quickly. So best is regular cutting. I can usually get both my front and back done on one battery. That is about 70 minutes of cutting.

Leaf blower - if you got a really big lawn and there are lots of leaves gas would be better.  There are variable settings for the leave blower. Mostly I don't have it on high. On high I could run it for an hour. Gas would blow harder.

My basic rule of thumb for electric tools is that if you will use the tool consistently for really big jobs gas is better.

[CrowMan]

PREMATURE ELECTRIFICATION 

New ad debuting on Super Bowl tonight:

 

[scuro2]

I saw a prediction recently that by 2030 half the new cars will be EVs. I can tell you that likely isn't going to happen by 2030. The only company able get you an EV in a few months is Tesla with the model Y which is expensive. Plug-in hybrids like the Rave4 are a 3-5 year wait. Most other EVs are about a 2 year wait. You might be able to get certain models in a year to year and a half. Demand is seriously outstripping supply. Current EV adoption is under 6%. The governments goal is 60% by 2030

[CrowMan]

I don't disagree that demand for EV's is outstripping supply...so I'm not sure why the mfgr's are spending a whack of dough promoting them. Last night on the US feed of the Super Bowl, five different car companies had ads flogging their EV's...at $7 million USD for a 30 second spot. EV's have certainly become mainstream...it wasn't too long ago that the Super Bowl ads were all about who had the toughest, baddest truck.

Anyway, it would seem that a lot of new manufacturing capacity it set to come up to speed in the next year or two, to fill the anticipated demand for EV's.

On another note...Dave Grohl was featured in a whiskey ad during the game...extolling the virtues of Canada. Nice to see, as the Yanks are usually blind to their northern friends.

 

[DanD]

5 hours ago, CrowMan said:

I don't disagree that demand for EV's is outstripping supply...so I'm not sure why the mfgr's are spending a whack of dough promoting them.

The simple answer propaganda !!!! 

Feed enough half-truths to the public and they will eventually start to believe anything.

Dan...

What is propaganda? Propaganda is the dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumor's, or lies—to influence public opinion.

[CrowMan]

I'm confused. So...a TV commercial from an automobile manufacturer is "propaganda" ? Isn't that called "advertising" ? Like all businesses big and small have done for 100's of  years ? The same "advertising" that is governed by laws that prevent "half-truths" and "lies" through false or misleading advertising, ie. fraud in the criminal code or state legislation. What are the "half-truths" or "lies" that Chrysler, Hyundai, GM, etc are promoting in these commercials ?

My original statement was just an observation that the mfgr's currently can't keep up with demand for EV's. My wife waited a year for her EV...I'm sure BMW would have preferred to have her money much sooner. So my point was why do they need to bother to advertise EV's at great expense if there's already a waiting list.  Well perhaps I should've elaborated...yes, in business there are other reasons to advertise than just getting the immediate sale...building the brand, protecting market share, customer awareness, etc.

I just think using the term " propanda" implies something  nefarious on the part of these mfgr's. They, like any business simply want to promote their products. There is obviously a big demand for EV's...for a lot of people (not everybody) they make sense. The mfgr's see that's where the market is headed. I'm sure the last thing the auto mfgr's want to do is to spend a bunch of cash re-tooling their plants and re-training their workers in switching over from ICE vehicles...which they were perfectly happy to produce for the last 100 years or so.

Please take no offense...like I said, I'm just confused on why you would use the word "propaganda" to describe an ad for a pick-up truck.

[smitty55]

5 hours ago, CrowMan said:

I'm confused. So...a TV commercial from an automobile manufacturer is "propaganda" ? Isn't that called "advertising" ? Like all businesses big and small have done for 100's of  years ? The same "advertising" that is governed by laws that prevent "half-truths" and "lies" through false or misleading advertising, ie. fraud in the criminal code or state legislation. What are the "half-truths" or "lies" that Chrysler, Hyundai, GM, etc are promoting in these commercials ?

My original statement was just an observation that the mfgr's currently can't keep up with demand for EV's. My wife waited a year for her EV...I'm sure BMW would have preferred to have her money much sooner. So my point was why do they need to bother to advertise EV's at great expense if there's already a waiting list.  Well perhaps I should've elaborated...yes, in business there are other reasons to advertise than just getting the immediate sale...building the brand, protecting market share, customer awareness, etc.

I just think using the term " propanda" implies something  nefarious on the part of these mfgr's. They, like any business simply want to promote their products. There is obviously a big demand for EV's...for a lot of people (not everybody) they make sense. The mfgr's see that's where the market is headed. I'm sure the last thing the auto mfgr's want to do is to spend a bunch of cash re-tooling their plants and re-training their workers in switching over from ICE vehicles...which they were perfectly happy to produce for the last 100 years or so.

Please take no offense...like I said, I'm just confused on why you would use the word "propaganda" to describe an ad for a pick-up truck.

If you notice with all those ads pushing EVs they never talk about any of the negative issues like replacing 25-$30K batteries after 7 years or the fire issues with electrical shorts that even firemen won't touch because its so dangerous, let alone dealing with a northern environment like Canada and having enough power to drive the car along with all other power demands like heating, lights at night and availability of charging infrastructure. It's all about alarmist climate change and making money. I believe China has the biggest supply of Lithium in the world too so that's another huge issue.
Here's an actual study and it didn't have to get very cold before performance dropped big time.https://tnc.news/2023/02/10/rcmp-evs/

Edited February 14, 2023 by smitty55

[scuro2]

11 hours ago, smitty55 said:

If you notice with all those ads pushing EVs they never talk about any of the negative issues like replacing 25-$30K batteries after 7 years or the fire issues with electrical shorts that even firemen won't touch because its so dangerous, let alone dealing with a northern environment like Canada and having enough power to drive the car along with all other power demands like heating, lights at night and availability of charging infrastructure. It's all about alarmist climate change and making money. I believe China has the biggest supply of Lithium in the world too so that's another huge issue.
Here's an actual study and it didn't have to get very cold before performance dropped big time.https://tnc.news/2023/02/10/rcmp-evs/

As Elon Musk states, we never hear about all the gas engine car fires. Statistically there are far more per vehicle.

I get it, if you need a big truck to haul things for significant distances in the north then EVs are not for you. Most people have none of those needs. The average distance travelled in a day is 50 to 60km. Any EV can handle that no matter what the temperature. Even most plug in hybrids can do that all on that mini battery. 

Like it or not EVs will be the future chosen vehicle regardless of any subsidies. We are in the infancy of EV development. Lithium is expensive and already there are technologies that are better that don't use Lithium. As the batteries become lighter and and more efficient the weight will be similar to ICE cars. The power of the market will decide this one.

If propaganda decided everything we would be driving Ladas and we there would be the Canadian units pushing towards Kiev with Putin!

Edited February 14, 2023 by scuro2

[CrowMan]

"If you notice with all those ads pushing EVs they never talk about any of the negative issues"

l don't disagree that EV's have some issues or that they make sense for everybody in every situation....but advertising your product is not "propaganda". Just like  McDonald's doesn't talk about its French fries making you fat...or Toyota telling you need to change the oil four times a year in its commercials.

It's a free marketplace...you absorb the information from advertising and your own independent research and you make a buying decision on what's best for you. 

I don't believe we're being fed "propaganda" in some nefarious plot by 99% of the world's scientists in some kind of  "alarmist climate change" scam. If it's all about "making money", do you really think the auto mfgr's want to spend billions re-tooling for EV production ?

Edited February 14, 2023 by CrowMan

[DanD]

19 hours ago, CrowMan said:

Please take no offense...like I said, I'm just confused on why you would use the word "propaganda" to describe an ad for a pick-up truck.

All ads are a form of propaganda to sway the manufacturer’s ideals on the public. 
You say the mfgrs are following what the people want. I say they are working hard to convince people that EV’s are what they want. Hence all the expensive advertising. 
No offence taken with what you posted. 
When I used the word propaganda I’m not talking propaganda like what Hitler, Goebbles and the Nazis used in the 1930’s to change a countries mind set. 
I just hate when big businesses try and lead people down a path that they may not have ever gone. 

I don’t dislike the EV but it’s hard to find stats on what the estimated EV’s total environmental footprint is or will be. I’m talking right from the manufacturer of materials (batteries especially) required to build, to maintain and the disposal of the vehicle at the end of its useful life. I wonder if the EV is as green as “advertised”?
I believe that battery powered cars are here for the interim; that's until the hydrogen fuel cell and or hydrogen internal combustion engines are perfected. Even Tesla is working on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Elon Musk has stopped calling them fool cell vehicles now that he’s looking at throwing his batteries in the garbage.

BMW and Toyota are in bed together trying to perfect a hydrogen combustion engine. BMW actually have one version of it’s engine in vehicles running around Europe.

So lets keep the thread going and I will try not to use words that may offend. 

Dan…
 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by DanD
spelling

[AKRISONER]

1 hour ago, DanD said:

I don’t dislike the EV but it’s hard to find stats on what the estimated EV’s total environmental footprint is or will be. I’m talking right from the manufacturer of materials (batteries especially) required to build, to maintain and the disposal of the vehicle at the end of its useful life. I wonder if the EV is as green as “advertised”?

 

 

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

[CrowMan]

1 hour ago, DanD said:

All ads are a form of propaganda to sway the manufacturer’s ideals on the public. 
You say the mfgrs are following what the people want. I say they are working hard to convince people that EV’s are what they want. Hence all the expensive advertising. 
No offence taken with what you posted. 
When I used the word propaganda I’m not talking propaganda like what Hitler, Goebbles and the Nazis used in the 1930’s to change a countries mind set. 
I just hate when big businesses try and lead people down a path that they may not have ever gone. 

I don’t dislike the EV but it’s hard to find stats on what the estimated EV’s total environmental footprint is or will be. I’m talking right from the manufacturer of materials (batteries especially) required to build, to maintain and the disposal of the vehicle at the end of its useful life. I wonder if the EV is as green as “advertised”?
I believe that battery powered cars are here for the interim; that's until the hydrogen fuel cell and or hydrogen internal combustion engines are perfected. Even Tesla is working on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Elon Musk has stopped calling them fool cell vehicles now that he’s looking at throwing his batteries in the garbage.

BMW and Toyota are in bed together trying to perfect a hydrogen combustion engine. BMW actually have one version of it’s engine in vehicles running around Europe.

So lets keep the thread going and I will try not to use words that may offend. 

Dan…
 

 

No problem Dan. I certainly dont disagree with you that there's more technology coming down the road. There's always going to more and better technology...its what our civilization has been built on for the last 2000 years. The marketplace will sort out the winners and losers.

It's just that you used the terms "half-truths " and "lies" ..and there is absolutely no evidence of that in their advertising. If there was, I'd be the first one in line to file a complaint with the CRTC or the Crown Attorney. My apologies if I'm passionate about the reputation of a business. In my 40 years of being in sales and marketing, I've often been subjected to exactly that...people throwing mud without evidence or facts...and it irks me to no end.

[DanD]

With due respect: I think I'll leave this thread.

Well other then it would be amazing if there were a hydrogen fuel cell or a hydrogen fueled engine/motor powered boat. No batteries, no gasoline and if there were ever a hydrogen tank rupture; all hydrogen wants to do is go up as high as it can as fast it can. A tank rupture is very unlikely they're the same tanks as propane or very close to. When I went for my propane installer's license for automotive applications. I watched a vid of a propane fuel vehicle hit by a train at full speed. There was nothing left of the car other then a full dented propane tank without the slightest leak. 

Dan...     

 

[CrowMan]

"BMW and Toyota are in bed together trying to perfect a hydrogen combustion engine"

Just for the sake of clarity...the hydrogen vehicles these two mfgr's are developing are still electric vehicles. They just use a hydrogen fuel cell rather than batteries to create/store the electricity. The vehicle is powered by an electric motor...it's not a "combustion engine".

[Fisherman]

Just found this about new diesel technology.  This could make them more appealing and probably cleaner than some gas vehicles.   https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2023/02/speed-of-air-engine-technologies-breakthrough-piston-technology/

[scuro2]

Elon Musk on Hydrogen motors
 

 

[CrowMan]

My background is in HVAC...my company took a long hard look as hydrogen as a potential heating fuel. In a lot of ways it makes sense...afterall, there is already extensive infrastructure in place to transport it to homes and businesses. There are existing cross-country pipelines, pipes under the streets and meters on homes/buildings that currently deliver Natural Gas, and on the surface would seem a seamless transition to hydrogen.

However, as Musk alluded to it has issues. The molecule is so small (it's the smallest atom in the universe) that conventional sealing methods can't contain it. Traditional O-rings and pipe thread compounds are ineffective and result in leaks. It's also extremely volatile...see the Hindenburg. None of these are deal breakers...there are existing work arounds. The biggest issue is producing the stuff. At this point, it takes more energy (through electrolysis) to produce hydrogen than the energy that it can provide. Of course, technology is always changing, and down the road who knows, it could be a major player in the energy mix.

For now, lithium batteries seem to be the most effe⁶ctive solution as an EV power source. And again to clarify...most Lithium comes from Australia, not China...and we're about to mine it ourselves in Ontario. On top of that, Chrysler and LG are building a $5 Billion lithium battery plant right here in Windsor. We will potentially soon being manufacturing 100% built in Ontario EV's...which I think (as Martha Stewart would say) is a good thing.

https://www.northernontariobusiness.com/mining-the-northwest/northwestern-ontario-sees-the-green-lithium-rush-6526470

https://www.stellantis.com/en/news/press-releases/2022/march/stellantis-and-lg-energy-solution-to-invest-over-5-billion-cad-in-joint-venture-for-first-large-scale-lithium-Ion-battery-production-plant-in-canada

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by CrowMan