Big Bad Wolf

[doubleheader]

Our coyote population in PA, which has now been proven to contain wolf genes, has exploded over the last 20 years. I read an interesting article in Pennsylvania Sportman just this week entitled the "Disnification of Wolves and Coyotes". According to this author the conservation people in Yellowstone are the ones that got this propaganda started, convincing the tourists the wolves are like the Disney animals we see on tv. Again according to this author there is danger in misinforming people that these creatures are nearly harmless creatures in that they begin to lose their fear of man. He went on to site and classify the reported coyote attacks and showed that while the number over the last 20 years remains low it doubled over the previous period, and that the nature of these attacks were such that one could draw a reasonable conclusion that the animals were hunting the humans (a significant number were children playing in their yards), they were not the result of surprising the animals . It was an interesting take, not sure myself if the cause of the increase isn't simply a result of the increased population. I would think the bigger danger is the fallout from this misinformation, the anti- hunting mentality that results from folks that think these predators either have some higher form intelligence or that they are just furry balls of cuddley love. Neither is true.

 

Personally I believe legal hunting of both coyotes and wolves is acceptable. It is designed to maintain a healthy population of the animals while maintaining needed population control. Additionally hunting brings in much needed revenue to many remote areas around the world. I have never killed a coyote, they're wiley buggers, but I've seen quite a few while either scouting or hunting. That said there are now a great number of coyote hunts organized across the state. I'm thankful for these sportsmen and women for keeping the population of these predators in some semblance of control.

[bigfish1965]

In the midst of all this I will say we all are entitled to opinions. No one is right or wrong. There is much to be said about trophy hunting and much to be said about trying to maintain the balance of a top level predator population.

 

I will say that trying to control coyotes via hunting is a waste of time and bullets. Much studying shows it is a futile effort. Their population levels are only determined by food source. Only in a full scale organized extirpation would have an impact. However we need to coyotes to control mouse, rabbit and other prey levels.

 

I would not shoot a wolf, but that's just me. I used to think I would not shoot a coyote either, but after having one attack my dogs last summer, I would not hesitate should one come looking again...except I can't shoot in city limits so a good old fashioned beat-down will have to suffice.

 

Hunting and fishing are forever intertwined and we do have to show support for the hunters otherwise fishing is threatened as well. The unfortunate thing about hunting is that catch and release has not really been shown to be effective ...

 

This summer will be Ontario's first glimpse by urban dwellers of the coyote problem. The numbers indicate that problems are inevitable. There will be dogs taken, cats missing and kids bitten. The density is at a critical point. But study after study has shown that hunting won't fix it. We have to change our behaviour. We have to stop being a food source and they will retreat from the cities.

 

Thank the MNR for their massive rabies immunization programs over the last several years. Had it not been for that we would have already had BIG problems.

[troutboy]

This is a timber wolf shot out side of Thunder bay.It was shot in a campsite because it was eating dogs in the area.He is a big wolf!!

[glen]

Its funny how peoples opinions change when they are affected by the wild animals.

 

Maybe the people that are affected should make the call on these issues.

 

Now go to my post about whitefish and help me out.

Edited February 26, 2010 by glen

[kerr]

id just take a bite out of it and set it free. catch and release is the only way fellas

[cram]

Cram,

 

You are wrong on so many points about wolves. They DO hunt in packs, but they DO NOT organise ambushes. In fact, there is little planned cooperation when they bring down an animal. So before you make sweeping statements, at least get educated.

 

Here's a wiki page to get you started:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Wolf

 

Your emotional/intelligent argument is also out of place. You don't know what an animal thinks or feels, and there are rarely correct ways to rank intelligence. Wolves have a seemingly complicated pack life, but you don't know what that is based on. Ants seemingly have an even more comlicated community life than wolves, a life that even humans would have difficulty organising. Is an ant smarter than you?

 

You may want to do some research yourself, my friend. If you knew anything about wolves, you'd know that they often work in coordinated hunts where some members of the pack drive prey to ambush points where other members are waiting to join in. Soemtimes it is more complex with 2 or 3 different groups waiting at ambush points taking turns running prey down. There's lots of verbal communication btwn them to signal actions on the hunt as well.

 

As for intelligence....i would like to think that if chimpanzees or gorillas were native to Canada we would not hunt them. Or if dolphins swam in ontario's lakes we would not hunt or fish them. Obviously wolves are not on their level....but the point is the same. And wolves are a billion times more sentient than a fish. And certainly more intelligent than an ungulate.

 

 

If people ate wolves...fine. I just would choose not to hunt them as trophies. I don't begrudge you for doing it. But don't consider me a member of P3TA for not doing it.

 

Final point - as others have pointed out already, comparing wolves to coyotes is like comparing muskies to rock bass. I wouldn't hunt coyotes either - they're still intelligent, and hunting them provides zero value in controlling population - but there might be one pack of wolves for every 150 square miles. Coyotes are more like rock bass....they can over populate an area.

[torco]

Not my cup of tea, I don't particularly like the way the pictures are taken but

as easy as it is to judge you can't really get too bent out of shape over hunting of a wolf where deemed appropriate and not have a problem with any other hunting. It would be hypocritical. Its like the P3TA people upset about furs and seals but walk around in clothing made of oil, how is that better for the earth?

 

I do feel some sadness for the wolf that was harvested but no more than I would for any of the earths other creatures.

[troutologist]

A well managed sport hunt is one of the most effective ways to control predators. The nature in which wolves were killed in the last 150 years or so in Canada resulted in very low wolf numbers. Ecosystems adapted a new homeostasis, once these natural controllers of ungulates and smaller prey species were removed. Recently, conservation efforts, regulations and general lack of harvest have brought back wolf numbers to much higher levels.

 

With little or no control on these species there will be a natural cycle of boom followed by bust, through which nature will find a new equilibruim for wolf numbers and prey numbers. The abundance of deer and moose are of great concern to resource managers, particularly due to the resource user demands (hunters) for abundant game. To agument this natural cycle, the use of hunting as a management tool is extremely effective and if done properly quite humane.

 

Think about this if you would, if there is an overabundance of wolves in a particular area there is inherently increased competition for resources, which are generally present in a limited amount. Younger wolves are forced into new territory with the outcome of conflicting with other dominant wolves or humans, both scenarios are usually detrimental to animal health. Further, once an area surpasses its (wolf) carrying capacity, there is a die off through starvation or disease. Granted both natural methods for keeping populations in check. High densities will yeild a lower overall population health and may have long term inpacts of a diluted (or less fit) gene pool.

 

Due to the nature of human interference in natural systems, we cannot ignore the responsibility to manage nature. Often a well placed bullet will provide a more humane end than the potential suffering I mention above.

 

I would love to debate this topic with others, I'm curious to hear thoughts on it. However, often these issues require a bit more investigation and deliberation that a quick google search or a wikipedia ctrl-c/ctrl-v....

[Steel28]

If its taken in a legal season there is nothing wrong with it at all, and its no different then harvesting any other animal, or fish for that matter.

Be it for a hide, sustinace or trophy its legal and I'd tread carefully on how you value one animal over another lest ye give P3TA amunition.

Outdoorsman alike should support our kin even if is not our cup of tea.

 

If I shot a wolf for a hide...is it any different then you taking a Muskie, or a bass in season to be stuffed?

Its the same thing except some people revere Wolves as Dogs, and think of them as Pets....which they ain't.

 

The MNR sets the guidelines around here, and they do it based on hard science to promote "healthy" populations keeping sport in mind as a secondary thought.

It all plays into a master plan that acounts for other animals that the Wolves prey on such as Beavers, Rabbits, Deer, Moose etc...

It's all about balance, and we should leave that to the experts.

 

Its the tree hugger mantality that canceled the Spring Bear hunt and that is not exsactly sitting well with people these day is it?

 

To each there own as long as its with in the law, and the law is doing their due dillegence in supporting a sustainable healthy population.

 

Sorry if I come across as harsh but don't go spouting off about wanting to hunt the hunters cause you feel bad for the big wild puppy dogs

 

x 3

 

well said Cookslav, let's not promote P3TA

 

How about slaughtered beef, chickens and other hormone ejected meals? I got into hunting for ethical reasons.

[Cookslav]

I don't begrudge you for doing it. But don't consider me a member of P3TA for not doing it.

 

I don't begrudge you at all cram,

But your sending a mixed message....

If you don't begrudge hunters for doing it, why would you think it should be illegal?

I don't blame anyone for hunting wolves...it is legal. But, i do think it should be illegal.

 

Not par taking in a wolf hunt because its not your cup of tea is one thing...thinking and sideing with P3TA is another

 

 

Media paints a vastly different picture of the wolf than what the actual reality is.

 

Due to the nature of human interference in natural systems, we cannot ignore the responsibility to manage nature. Often a well placed bullet will provide a more humane end than the potential suffering I mention above.

 

Bingo...some smart men right there

Edited February 26, 2010 by Cookslav

[cityfisher]

I was on haliburton lake which is very close to Algonquin

found 2 fresh wolf kills and even heard them outside the cottage

 

Try hunting them , probably one of the hardest game to target

[Kilka]

You may want to do some research yourself, my friend. If you knew anything about wolves, you'd know that they often work in coordinated hunts where some members of the pack drive prey to ambush points where other members are waiting to join in. Soemtimes it is more complex with 2 or 3 different groups waiting at ambush points taking turns running prey down. There's lots of verbal communication btwn them to signal actions on the hunt as well.

 

As for intelligence....i would like to think that if chimpanzees or gorillas were native to Canada we would not hunt them. Or if dolphins swam in ontario's lakes we would not hunt or fish them. Obviously wolves are not on their level....but the point is the same. And wolves are a billion times more sentient than a fish. And certainly more intelligent than an ungulate.

 

 

If people ate wolves...fine. I just would choose not to hunt them as trophies. I don't begrudge you for doing it. But don't consider me a member of P3TA for not doing it.

 

Final point - as others have pointed out already, comparing wolves to coyotes is like comparing muskies to rock bass. I wouldn't hunt coyotes either - they're still intelligent, and hunting them provides zero value in controlling population - but there might be one pack of wolves for every 150 square miles. Coyotes are more like rock bass....they can over populate an area.

 

Again, you are wrong about wolf interactions, especially about interactions between packs. Relationships between different wolf packs are generally hostile.

 

I do agree however that you should eat whatever you hunt for.

 

And yeah people comparing wolves to coyotes are l-o-l.

 

And again, stop making the intelligence point. Wolves' social capabilities do not make it any more or less intelligent than other animals. May I ask what kind of scale you are using to guage intelligence here?

[cram]

Again, you are wrong about wolf interactions, especially about interactions between packs. Relationships between different wolf packs are generally hostile.

 

I do agree however that you should eat whatever you hunt for.

 

And yeah people comparing wolves to coyotes are l-o-l.

 

And again, stop making the intelligence point. Wolves' social capabilities do not make it any more or less intelligent than other animals. May I ask what kind of scale you are using to guage intelligence here?

 

I think you're misunderstanding. I don't mean that PACKS collaborate. Wolves WITHIN the pack collaborate in an intelligent and forward-thinking manner. Instead of just mobbing an animal in one giant mass, many wolf packs will set up a coordinated hunt with a few members chasing game into ambush points, where other wolves are waiting. Or, sometimes with 2 or 3 different spots, depending on the type of game (size/endurance/ease of takign it down).

 

There are lots of different scales to judge intelligence. However we judge them, a wolf (relatively complex, sophisticated vertebrate) is far more intelligent than a fish (maybe the simplest vertebrate brains).

 

As for social stuff....your best example was ants, which do indeed have sophisticated social systems, but they are hardly "emotional". I hate to use the dog comparison because dogs are pets....but a wolf's emotional intelligence is far closer to rufus than an ant.

[bigfish1965]

A well managed sport hunt is one of the most effective ways to control predators. The nature in which wolves were killed in the last 150 years or so in Canada resulted in very low wolf numbers. Ecosystems adapted a new homeostasis, once these natural controllers of ungulates and smaller prey species were removed. Recently, conservation efforts, regulations and general lack of harvest have brought back wolf numbers to much higher levels.

 

With little or no control on these species there will be a natural cycle of boom followed by bust, through which nature will find a new equilibruim for wolf numbers and prey numbers. The abundance of deer and moose are of great concern to resource managers, particularly due to the resource user demands (hunters) for abundant game. To agument this natural cycle, the use of hunting as a management tool is extremely effective and if done properly quite humane.

 

Think about this if you would, if there is an overabundance of wolves in a particular area there is inherently increased competition for resources, which are generally present in a limited amount. Younger wolves are forced into new territory with the outcome of conflicting with other dominant wolves or humans, both scenarios are usually detrimental to animal health. Further, once an area surpasses its (wolf) carrying capacity, there is a die off through starvation or disease. Granted both natural methods for keeping populations in check. High densities will yeild a lower overall population health and may have long term inpacts of a diluted (or less fit) gene pool.

 

Due to the nature of human interference in natural systems, we cannot ignore the responsibility to manage nature. Often a well placed bullet will provide a more humane end than the potential suffering I mention above.

 

I would love to debate this topic with others, I'm curious to hear thoughts on it. However, often these issues require a bit more investigation and deliberation that a quick google search or a wikipedia ctrl-c/ctrl-v....

 

I do not think the same applies for coyotes..especially now with the prey levels still very high in this area because of the successive wet summers. Managing numbers via hunts or culls during high prey pop'n cycles is like peeing into the wind. It is like the urban beaver and the futile efforts we saw here to control the numbers. Trapping resulted in killing dominant females which sent all the females into estrus. This pushed the litters way up since the food source was still far ahead of demand.

There are remarkable and concerning differences in the urban versus rural canid behaviours that are starting to surface.

The coyotes are pushing the red foxes out in Niagara on the Lake and I am hearing more and more reports of foxes taking up residence in peoples yards.

The yotes have been forming loose pack affiliations. The sheer numbers are staggering and I can PM you some farmer cull numbers.

 

Interestingly I think the answer is opening more areas to deer hunting. This may push the coyote litters down.

[Headhunter]

I bet the Roadrunners aren't very happy with all the coyotes either!

HH

[cram]

I bet the Roadrunners aren't very happy with all the coyotes either!

HH

 

Beep beep!!!!

[troutologist]

I do not think the same applies for coyotes..especially now with the prey levels still very high in this area because of the successive wet summers. Managing numbers via hunts or culls during high prey pop'n cycles is like peeing into the wind. It is like the urban beaver and the futile efforts we saw here to control the numbers. Trapping resulted in killing dominant females which sent all the females into estrus. This pushed the litters way up since the food source was still far ahead of demand.

There are remarkable and concerning differences in the urban versus rural canid behaviours that are starting to surface.

The coyotes are pushing the red foxes out in Niagara on the Lake and I am hearing more and more reports of foxes taking up residence in peoples yards.

The yotes have been forming loose pack affiliations. The sheer numbers are staggering and I can PM you some farmer cull numbers.

 

Interestingly I think the answer is opening more areas to deer hunting. This may push the coyote litters down.

 

 

You raise a very interesting point Rick. In my understanding you're correct, attempts to control coyotes have been an immense challenge and money sink with little in the way of success. I was speaking with some wildlife disease folks this week and they were mentioning in areas of the US where this is the case, they are seeing very rapid mutation of new rabies varients. These new varients are actually getting quite specific in target species.

 

Hunting/trapping is not the only answer to the predator problem, especially in an urban/suburban setting. I appreciate the challenges of the resource managers when a number of groups are pressuring with their own interests and the manager needs to meet on middle ground while still trying to maintain a healthy ecosystem.

 

Is the Govt or muncipality still actively attempting control measures in your area?

[irishfield]

I bet the Roadrunners aren't very happy with all the coyotes either!

HH

 

But the coyote caught the road runner..did I not send you that video???

[bigfish1965]

You raise a very interesting point Rick. In my understanding you're correct, attempts to control coyotes have been an immense challenge and money sink with little in the way of success. I was speaking with some wildlife disease folks this week and they were mentioning in areas of the US where this is the case, they are seeing very rapid mutation of new rabies varients. These new varients are actually getting quite specific in target species.

 

Hunting/trapping is not the only answer to the predator problem, especially in an urban/suburban setting. I appreciate the challenges of the resource managers when a number of groups are pressuring with their own interests and the manager needs to meet on middle ground while still trying to maintain a healthy ecosystem.

 

Is the Govt or muncipality still actively attempting control measures in your area?

We are currently pushing the municipalities in this direction, but the resources are scarce. It really hit fast and hard and caught them off guard. With all the new green spaces (usually connected by brown fields) and urban sprawl and the unexpected nearly exponential population changes, it is all very new. We still do not have Forestry Management Plans so it is tough sledding to get them to see the need for Wildlife Management Plans.

The MNR, to date, has no real new ideas though their approach at educating urban dwellers is good, its just not being embraced by the towns. The municipal gov'ts are afraid to wade into it hoping the MNR will take control...which isn't going to happen.

We've not had a confirmed case of rabies here in nearly 20 years.

I know in Texas their big problem is the number of bites to children mistaking them for dogs.

Chicago has an extensive urban coyote program as does Vancouver. I have been reading their stuff and it all points to one common theme...they are here and are going to stay, so get used to it.

Our biggest problem so far is people. They are inadvertently feeding them (loose pets, outdoor dog/cat food, unsecured garbage) so we are now seen as a food source.

[troutologist]

I'm uncertain of its effect on coyotes but there is a caribou herd co managed by Alaska and Canada, which they are trying to reduce predation by sterilizing male wolves. Act of mating occurs but fertilization/implantation doesn't. I'm sure someone has thought of this previously with coyotes though??

[cram]

I'm uncertain of its effect on coyotes but there is a caribou herd co managed by Alaska and Canada, which they are trying to reduce predation by sterilizing male wolves. Act of mating occurs but fertilization/implantation doesn't. I'm sure someone has thought of this previously with coyotes though??

 

There's lots of research on coyotes' compensatory reproduction countering the effects of culling. You'd have to think someone has thought of or tried sterilizing them.

[pike slayer]

i say giver hunt wolves nothing wrong with that but im against hunting to just kill them. i feel if your gonna shoot it the wolf you have to use part of the wolf for something. if its for the meat to eat, even for your dog, or for its fur, haha make a fur jacket for a homless person! or have it stuffed. make a rug whatever. i just feel shooting the thing and leaving it to "let nature do its thing" is wrong, you wouldnt catch a fish and fire it in the bush for the birds. just posting my opinion like it or not.

[Twocoda]

i just feel shooting the thing and leaving it to "let nature do its thing" is wrong, you wouldnt catch a fish and fire it in the bush for the birds. just posting my opinion like it or not.

 

do it with every goby i catch..

[pike slayer]

i've yet to see a goby in person, i dont see a problem with them. if my area was over run with them my opinion might change but its not, only fish that over runs the odd lake around here are rock bass and i just toss them back.

[bigfish1965]

Gobies are an invasive species and you are supposed to kill them and leave them on shore. Twocoda was yanking your chain...