pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 My house is about 100 years old, the hot water pipe running into the kitchen isn't putting out any water. (strangely the cold one is) The pipe runs under my kitchen through a crawl space that is VERY COLD. Temps overnite were probably around -22 or so. Any suggestions? Obviously waiting for warm weather won't help much. I don't want it bursting under the kitchen is all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerritt Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 place an electric heater in the crawl space... or perhaps a portable torch carefully you dont want th pipe to burst... once you do get the pipe unfrozen be sure to wrap it in insulating foam to prevent further freeze ups. Gerritt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I won't fit into the crawl space, strangely. If I place heat into the crawl space it would certainly warm up eventually I guess. We are going to redirect a furnace duct into the crawl space that should give it a bunch necessary heat, do i need to worry about anything when redirecting the duct with flexible hose? All of this will be done by my wife for a while (after home hardware in town opens) until I get out of the job. Wife doesn't think that the problem is under the sink. Maybe this is a job for the Coop? Give him a blow torch and have atter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerritt Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 LOL Man!!!.... I dont see a problem in using the furnace to pump heat into the crawlspace... but this problem will continue unless you get those pipes wrapped know any wee men? perhaps you can hire Roy for the day?? LOL Gerritt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 you can redirecting the duct with flexible hose no problem if you had the tap dripping a little most times it will not freeze I would get a blow torch or hair dryer on it and get it working as soon as possible or it will freeze more ... it is best to start heating the pipe close to to the tap and work your way to the frozen area with the tap open because heating it does cause pressure and can crack the pipe and pop elbows you can buy the heater wire and wrap the pipe then insulate it and plug it in when needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 (edited) Steve, make sure that before you starting heating the pipes, you open the hot water tap to full. If not the pipe will burst. OOPs sorry Terry I just read the same thing in your thread. Edited January 26, 2007 by Squid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillj Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Also ... be watchful ... it may already be burst ... but frozen ... the 'real problem' may not show itself until it starts to melt I would ge ready to shut off the main ... Anyhow ... is the hot water working anywhere else in the house ... sometimes this is a 'filled' hot water heater - youd be amazed how much rust settles in the hot water tank until ... eventually it just stops flowing ... in some climates this can happen as quickly as every ten years or so. Anyhow good luck bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 hot water is fine in the rest of the house. thanks for the tips, I will let yall know the status later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misfish Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 What was mentioned) leave the taps cracked just enough to allow the water to drip.I have an older place as well,when I run the wood stove only I do this. Good luck bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taper Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I have almost the same set up in my century home and now have 2 furnace ducts directly into the crawl space after spray insulating the area no more problems with freeze ups. The electric pipe wraps that Terry mentioned are great for this type of thing. They are a bit pricy. If you plan to go that way send me a PM I think I still have 2 or 3 here, I will check for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntervasili Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 The otehr Option you may have depending on the size of this piece of piping is to use an electric blanket... It will take little effort from you to do... As well Make sure to insulate it cause that is what started the problem in the first place... Hope something mentioned in the thread will work... Good luck, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Report back from the Ranch is that running the flex hose from the duct into the crawl space was enough to thaw out the pipe. So far no signs of leaking anywhere. When I get home I will work out a permanent fix for this problem. Thanks for all your help guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beans Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Hey Steve: Just behind where I'm sitting there is an indoor/outdoor thermometer and the outdoor temp probe runs down to the crawlspace where there is a portable baseboard heater that works from an extension cord up through a closet and into it's own electrical outlet... I usually set the thermostat on the heater at 10*C and plug it in about mid November 'till mid April (the same time I turn off/on the tap underneath for the outside taps... I sure can empathize with you when it comes to having to crawl underneath...tight fit for us FFs...Had to wait 'till later this past fall as wasps had set up housekeeping and it took a long time for them to die off... Would you believe they ate through the nylon screen...Wire mesh this spring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeXXington Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Hey Guys: LOL, not sure anyone has mention this yet before working on the pipes make sure you turn the water off at the main or at least know where it is.. If the pipes do burst you got too be quick too the shut off valve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Hey Steve: Just behind where I'm sitting there is an indoor/outdoor thermometer and the outdoor temp probe runs down to the crawlspace where there is a portable baseboard heater that works from an extension cord up through a closet and into it's own electrical outlet... I usually set the thermostat on the heater at 10*C and plug it in about mid November 'till mid April (the same time I turn off/on the tap underneath for the outside taps... I sure can empathize with you when it comes to having to crawl underneath...tight fit for us FFs...Had to wait 'till later this past fall as wasps had set up housekeeping and it took a long time for them to die off... Would you believe they ate through the nylon screen...Wire mesh this spring hey Beans...if I can help you out with the "mesh" let me know. I happen to have an "in" to that industry. Check out www.buymesh.ca under the products link have a peak at stainless steel and look at the photos. I would suggest 18x18x.009 which is the stainless mesh most similar to window screening. We have done the in laws cottage with it also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daplumma Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Glad it thawed out for ya without bursting.A little heat goes a long way,you dont have to warm up the pipe you just have to keep it above freezing!If you have the sink on an outside wall you may want to leave the cabinet open on real cold nights.Redirecting a heat duct down there will help but if you turn the heat way down at night and the furnace fan is off it will not heat up the space.For some reason the hot water lines almost always freeze first! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobber1978 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Could always heat trace it http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_...fromSearch=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonfisher Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Glad it thawed out for ya without bursting.A little heat goes a long way,you dont have to warm up the pipe you just have to keep it above freezing!If you have the sink on an outside wall you may want to leave the cabinet open on real cold nights.Redirecting a heat duct down there will help but if you turn the heat way down at night and the furnace fan is off it will not heat up the space.For some reason the hot water lines almost always freeze first! Joe I think that the duct from the basement should definitely do the trick. It had been closed off last year, now I have used flex-pipe to run the heat into the crawl space. Popped a hole every few feet in the piping and capped the end with a mesh vent. the furnace always comes on here in the night and during the day (even when we are heating with fire) it comes on every now and again. The house is kept at a fairly stable 20 degrees all winter. thanks for all the suggestions, I am sure glad this ended as positively as it did!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beans Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 (edited) Thanks Steve for the screen info but that is way more heavy duty than what I need A piece of wire screening 20'' x 28'' will cover the area I need for the summer frame that fits in the entrance to the crawlspace...the other side of the frame has heavy wire mesh to keep the ''critters'' out... I'm sure Roger over at Home Hardware will have something... After I screw it in place this spring I'll spray a heavy dose of WD40 all over and around it...Wasps don't seem to like that stuff... Edited January 26, 2007 by Beans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillj Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Goood news ! Just as an aside ... the laws of physics kick in ... a hot substance cools much faster than a cold one .. which is why you should always use HOT water in your ice trays ... kind of a momentum thing ... but the delta in the temp dictates the rate of change of temperature . counterintuative but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daplumma Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Goood news ! Just as an aside ... the laws of physics kick in ... a hot substance cools much faster than a cold one .. which is why you should always use HOT water in your ice trays ... kind of a momentum thing ... but the delta in the temp dictates the rate of change of temperature . counterintuative but true Using hot water to make ice will make crystal clear cubes!In the hvac world of psychometrics we use the delta T quite often. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silveradosheriff Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Nice to see folks offering ideas, what a great board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Another nice option for future cold days, and all days really, is a recirculation loop in the hot water side. This is a feature that nearly all higher scale homes have as standard. It is a simple return pipe to the water heater that allows the water to flow freely even while the tap is off. This reduces the time it takes to get hot water to nearly zero. With such a system it could also solve the water line freezing in winter with no need to heat a crawl space simply to keep the water flowing. Normally the hot water line on older homes is placed closest to the outside wall in the thoughts that the hot water flowing through them would assist with resisting freezing of the lines. In times when the water is used fairly frequently, this is true. Other times, as you know now, this makes no difference. The expense to add another line is minimal and the cost to have it circulate is very litte. It can be done two ways: with a small recirculating pump near the heater, or many times it will work from gravity utlizing the natural tendency of hot water to rise. Either way, the total cost of installation and use would be less than the cost of buying heaters or using furnace ducting and heating a crawl space. Every time you turn on the tap for hot water you will have a warm (no pun intended), fuzzy, feeling all over as no wait is needed. Imagine how much water flows directly to a drain as we all wait for the water to heat. I am a new poster, long-time reader, and will not now or ever get even close to showing disrespect for anyone. However, please consider the issue of hot water freezing before cold water. As a young lad that would occasionally partake of the barley pops, I would enter into challenges with other bar patrons of a similar ilk. We would allow for anything other than outright violence. Two of our nights were consumed challenging the 'wive's tale' concerning water freezing. Our test confirmed that cold water freezed first. Now please try this before jumping on me. I was the one that lost. And it cost me more than you in that I had to anty up for several rounds. That's a lesson that I learned for a long time. Subsequently, while in college, I did ask my physics professor about this. I never did understand his reponse (yeah, I graduated, but not as a physics major) but he said that it is usually true that cold water freezes faster, but at time in certain conditions, it is not true. So essentially, unless we define parameters more in depth, we are both correct. The issue of hot water being clearer can be valid. The fuzziness in ice is essentially bubbles. Hot water allows for fewer bubbles, therefore, clearer ice. Of course many other things can come into play, such as, mineral content, and time to freezing, but all of that is a bit over my head. Please take my comments as to how they are intended, to provide whatever assistance I can with my limited set of knowledge. I did, at age 50, enter into a university seeking a formal education to match what life has taught me. I graduate this May with my undergraduate degree in Accounting/Management. No other work since then than the college classes. That is and was enough. It is never too late folks, it is mostly just realizing that we can do pretty much anything given a proper attitude. By the way, I do love to fish. Since going to Canada for the first time 10 years ago, I am spoiled. It is a wonderful country with good people and great fishing. Thanks, Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigger Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 hey oldschool, nice to have you aboard! We've done this on nights like you're describing and also have tried out this myth. Cold water does freeze first! I wasn't too sure if I was imagining it, so before I posted,I wanted to make sure of this. So I took a glass of cold water and a glass of cold water and put them in the freezer(outside). elapsed time so far...18mins. neither one is frozen yet....will post final results since the experiment is underway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daplumma Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Welcome aboard Oldschool.The system you are talking about,either by natural convection or mechanical means is a simple install on a new constuction setting but is a little tougher in an existing structure.I suspect that hot water lines will freeze faster becuase the minerals in the hot water in the house have "settled" in the holding tank and are more pure than the cold water.I'm sure my brother (aplumma) will have the correct explanation for this.I do know that the first lines to freeze up in a house are the hot water lines from almost 30 years of plumbing work.I always like to see a lurker finally post here.Cheers! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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