Buy out

[misfish]

Honda and Toyota announced today they also want a Provincial and Federal bailout...so much for only the BIG 3

 

They just want some of the pie too. I dought they need it,just making a statement.

 

 

Im in the auto manuf.We supply yom which supplies honda. No slowing down here.Our biggest customer is Brose,they bought out Siemens. They are all over the world and have just given us another 20 dies to make and run for the next 7-9 years. millions of dollars. I dont see them slowing down.

 

 

Glad to see this has been civil.

Thanks everyone.

[John]

I tried to stay away from this but.........

 

A huge portion of my sales comes from the auto industry. Not directly as it used to, but now indirectly from Brose and other non-North American companies, who through amazing efficiency and cost control, still seem to be able to make money even in challenging markets.

 

I used to sell directly to Ford, who spun off the division to Visteon, who became ACH, who are now once again Ford. This division has lost huge money perennially, independently of who owned what. I understand the hard to swallow salaries and bonuses of the CEO's and CFO's and have my own opinions there, but those obscene "packages" are really a drop in the ocean compared to the other mismanagement that has accumulated the massive legacy costs and payrolls that the so called big three now have to deal with.

 

One example of gross mismanagement is one couple that I know, (quite well), both still work at one of the US big three divisions. He is a line supervisor and she operates a small machine. They are both unionized. Now comes the fun part. He schedules her work and her hours. He also has (had) the ability to work unlimited overtime. So, they could both work together, (at overtime rate), and sleep together, as they chose. Between them they make (made) well over $250,000.00 US for each of the last 10+ years............This example of wages is not by any means unique. Many, many of the Ford and I suppose GM and Chrysler unionized workers live (lived) very well in large homes with "fleets" of new automobiles... Yet, anytime that I visited the plant, the work ethic and pace was at best pathetic.

 

Who is to blame..........? The exec's, the unions, the workers, government, or you and me............The auto makers give us what we want and what sells.

 

It seems to me that the culprit is the same as it was in all of history..............greed. We have become accustomed to living beyond our means. As long as we have the ability to cover our monthly outgoing, then all is well with the world. As soon as the source of cash dries up................well you know!

[charlied]

They just want some of the pie too. I dought they need it,just making a statement.

Im in the auto manuf.We supply yom which supplies honda. No slowing down here.Our biggest customer is Brose,they bought out Siemens. They are all over the world and have just given us another 20 dies to make and run for the next 7-9 years. millions of dollars. I dont see them slowing down.

Glad to see this has been civil.

Thanks everyone.

darn wish i lived in your area...seems like a place thats actually hiring....LOL

[cram]

interesting article on cnn.com about what could happen if GM goes under....

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/14/autos/auto...sion=2008111412

[Bernie]

Strange. I have never been so busy. Booked ahead for over 2 weeks. Perhaps instead of buying new, people are fixing up their older vehicles. Hope it keeps up here anyway.

[misfish]

darn wish i lived in your area...seems like a place thats actually hiring....LOL

 

charlied

You be amazed how many customers are looking for nonunion plants to make thier parts.

Im thinking the low cost of labour. Not that we are paid cheap wages,as we are paid well here.Enough to feed and keep our heads above the high waters.

 

A huge portion of my sales comes from the auto industry. Not directly as it used to, but now indirectly from Brose and other non-North American companies, who through amazing efficiency and cost control, still seem to be able to make money even in challenging markets

 

Being German based and owned,has helpped us with them aswell.

Edited November 14, 2008 by misfish

[misfish]

Something about the word "FAMILY OWNED"

 

I for one can say,I have never been treated better then I have been, working for a family owned company.To think,they can do it in the auto industry,not just your local family resturant or bakery.

 

Oh look at the years in bussiness.

 

brose

 

 

theta

[OhioFisherman]

The cities of Philadelphia Pa, Atlanta Ga, and Phoenix Az are now talking about jumping on the bail out band wagon and others are soon to follow. Retail sales have faced their largest decline on record.

 

Like one in 6 Americans with a home mortgage now owes more on the home than it is worth, a staggering figure, and enough blame for every one involved.

 

The life styles of the rich and famous usually only works if you are, a more conservative approach to personal finance is usually a better deal for the average person, a lot of them forgot.

 

America was basically built on jobs, ones that pay fairly well. I feel for our incoming President, he has been left a mess with no easy way out.

 

The most important jobs in the country, running it, 435 house members, 100 senators, a prez and some extra help, none are paid what these CEOs are paid! A shell game, boost profits now, even if they are not sustainable, not good for the overall health of your company, or the country. You get a golden parachute, every one else gets an empty bag. Some of the people running the country have also been asleep on the job.

 

The problem with being a world leader is others have a tendency to follow, even if it is the wrong road. With no good paying jobs for the masses the house of cards comes crashing down.

 

This has been building here since the 60`s, the push for cheap labor to boost the perks for the execs, they forgot the most important part of the machine, the people, the wheels, the ride can`t move with out them.

 

Now all these clowns want the people to pay for a tow.

[mrpike]

A lot of you have made a great deal of cents. But it all comes down to one word. AND that word is ! come on now you know it spit it out !

 

 

 

 

 

 

GREED GREED GREED AND MORE GREED. ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER.

 

 

GREED.

I can aford it so I will pay it. How about I will pay what its really worth.

Edited November 15, 2008 by mrpike

[musky_man]

Misfish,

 

I have a very simple question to ask you .... if all the unions suddenly disappeared tomorrow from the Big 3, do you think people would start to line up and buy their cars?

 

I stopped buying N/A cars for a simple reason - the Japanese buld them much better. I have a 1996 Toyota Camry, getting ready to turn over 200K and other than routine maintainance and a few very minor issues, she runs like the day I bought it (used).

 

Unions are not the problem ... lousy N/A cars are the problem. Cars are different than many items people buy ... once burned you lose the confidence of the consumer for many, many years ... often generations. On the other hand, if you have a good experience (Toyota and Honda seem to know this best) then you will be back ... even if it costs you a little more.

 

Cheers,

 

- M

[misfish]

Misfish,

 

I have a very simple question to ask you .... if all the unions suddenly disappeared tomorrow from the Big 3, do you think people would start to line up and buy their cars?

 

 

I think you asnwered your own question???????

 

stopped buying N/A cars for a simple reason - the Japanese buld them much better

 

NO UNION

 

It,s amazing what incentives a company will give thier employees for a good job well done.

 

Probly why Honda has said no to them for so many years

[pikehunter]

Does anyone ever consider why some non-union companies are decent employers? Ever think that perhaps it is a way to keep the union out? Just a thought as anyone from the Hammer knows, Stelco was unionized after a long nasty fight in the 1940's, Dofasco the other steel giant down the street remained non union and did treat their employees with respect and fairly. Why? Some around here say it was their way to keep out the United Steelworkers and others say because Stelco management were cruel while their counterparts had respect.

 

But then it is all history now, US Steel = Stelco and Dofasco is Mittel. Oh well.

 

I really don't think the unions are the culprit when it comes to the North American auto industrie's troubles. Everything goes boom and bust and this could be it's turn to go bust.

 

And as for Canadian built vehicles, some the Toyotas and Hondas are built here in Ontario. These cars are more Canadian than some of the N. American vehicles that many of us are driving.

 

IMHO.

 

Cheers to all.

[Greencoachdog]

Reading the posts to this thread, I can't help but notice the malaise toward the company that the unions breed into their workers. Not only do I see it in this thread, but on the job too! These people aren't working for the company that signs their paycheck, they're working for the union that they have to give a portion of their paycheck to!!!(extortion?) These people have been brainwashed with propaganda for so long, they actually believe it!

 

Is this the type employee you would want working for you if you owned a company?... I think not! They aren't going to give 100%... they're just going to do what they have to to get by... but why should they show extra effort? Their pay will stay the same regardless, because a union scale says so! I personally believe a persons pay should be based on their experience, effort, ability, and attitude! This system provides a much more productive work force!

 

It would be in Ford and GM's best interest to shut down completely and reopen under new names in an area that has the "right to work" law and people that will appreciate a good job!

 

Of course the union and unemployed union workers will blame the company for their sad situation... but we'll know who's really to blame...

[Rich]

No offense, but no matter how fast the employees ram the parts into the vehicles, it doesn't fix cheap/crappy parts.

 

I don't think the workers are to blame for this, nor the unions. It's corporate execs making horrible decisions, looking for the cheapest way to make a buck.

 

The company I work for is doing the same thing. Clowns from head office who have never seen meat outside of a restaraunt are sending us instructions on how to do our job. Their way doesn't work in the real world, but they can't see that. Mostly because they've never entered the real world outside of their limo!

[Bernie]

I think one of the points being made here is there is an us against them attitude in a lot of union workplaces that isn't as apparent in a non-union workplace. In family and non union shops there is a more unified attitude that allows better productivity and quality.

[misfish]

personally believe a persons pay should be based on their experience, effort, ability, and attitude! This system provides a much more productive work force!

 

TY

 

 

BTW Both Honda and Toyota said they have NO need for assistance.

 

I don't think the workers are to blame for this

 

Well rich I have to say you are wrong here.

Theres a saying,"operator error"

Meaning the operator of the machine is responsible for the product he or she is making or assembling. If a bad part gets to a customer,there is call backs,resorts, and this costs much more then anyone can think.

 

This goes back to what the dawg said,experience, effort, ability, and attitude.

 

In family and non union shops there is a more unified attitude that allows better productivity and quality.

 

Edited November 15, 2008 by misfish

[Cookslav]

It's corporate execs making horrible decisions,

Another thing I love about the unions...

blame the CEO's, blame the Execs, blame the top dollar earners, and managment...

sorry but I find it hard to blame the people who busted their Asses when they were young to get a formal education or skilled trade, and hustled their but to earn results, respect in their field, and now have the responsibility to "lead" their comapnies....

These people worked hard to get to that position.

 

True some are Greedy, and over paid...but most earned their keep and "bettered" them selves to be were they are in their "CAREER"

As opposed to "settleing" into an unskilled, uneducated role on a line "JOB" somewere.

True some guys work their butts off, but some sit back and push the minimum, and rely on the unions to keep that easy pace safe as well.

To each their own I suppose, but I find it reeeely tough to grasp the concept of blaming the acheivers, over the status quo.

 

Besides You can't blame an exec who's hands are tied with outragous Labor costs that are litteraly carved in stone by the union.

The costs of a car is outrageous, and its directly related to the cost of production...

So do the simple math here,

The unions are very very much responsible for a large part of this, not 100% of course, but they are the single largest cost factor...labor usualy is.

 

Simply put,

Costs need to be cut to get expenses in line, sales prices need to come down in order to spur purchases, and the product quality needs to be maintained. How can that be done with an overpaid ineffiecent work force, that cannot be replaced, or even improved?

If you come up with that answer you deserve 2million/year as an executive hands down, because you just solved this issue.

 

Sure....

Go ahead and blame the Execs who by the way have been talking to this issue for years but can't do anything about it....

I guess because they make lots of money they are guilty right?

 

I suppose by the same logic the doctor shortage, and state of our health care must be the fact we pay our doctors to much right?

Never mind that they went to school well into their mid 30's, and spent $100,000 on tuition, and spent countless hours on internships, and deal with LIFE AND DEATH every day to earn their lifestyle....

By union logic we should cut the doctors salary so we can pay the receptionists, and janitorial services $40/hour and let them have a bigger voice in how we run our health care....

Union thinking would have us beleive we don't need leadership, the little guys should run 51% of the comapny.

Sounds great if you live in a story book but its not realisitc.

 

The union mantality is delusional...

Sorry but in truth I would bet my life savings if you busted the unions in the auto sector there would be a Line up 100 miles long of people more than willing to fill those line level jobs for a fraction of what the current guys make, and the only crying would be comming from the former union employees...and ask yourself this

How many union employees would cross that picket line for a 25% pay reduction as opposed to loseing their job?

Cause its gonna come to that....

 

Pesonaly I'd like to see the Unions busted.

I'd bet a pair of fresh eyes, and an eagar new work force not embittered with union mantality would increase the effeicency 10 fold, and be just what the doctor ordered for the big 3.

 

 

Unfortunatly for the militant...there is little support out there for the unions round here, just calling it like I see it.

I'd go as far as to say its nothing more then a vocal minority, and its a matter of time till the winds of change roll around.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Cookslav

[Rich]

Are the operators equipped with magic wands that turn dog poop into gold? Cuz they'd need it to make GM parts as reliable or well made as the offshore companies.

[Rich]

True some are Greedy, and over paid...but most earned their keep and "bettered" them selves to be were they are in their "CAREER"

 

HA! This is where I CAN bash the unions! In my company, due to union regulations, everyone is allowed to apply for any position within the company. The person in charge of meat sales/processing for loblaws is A VEGAN!!!!!! What a joke! Busted her butt, ya right she's 2 years older than I am!

[Cookslav]

meat sales/processing for loblaws is A VEGAN!!!!

 

Now that is weird LOL...

[Rich]

lol, the saddest part is that she is doing a slightly better job than the guy before her who did cut meat for 15 years, haha

[OhioFisherman]

"I suppose by the same logic the doctor shortage, and state of our health care must be the fact we pay our doctors to much right?"

 

The problem with your doctor shortage is simple, US, as in USA, and the logic similar. Why stay in a country when you can cross a near by border and make more. Your government doesn`t prevent it, ours certainly won`t.

 

Similar logic as free trade, why do it here when we can do it there but for less? but in reverse, how can you possibly expect to keep doctors? The same logic with jobs, if it can be done somewhere else cheaper they might all go away.

 

My sons orthopedic for his knee injury was a doctor from Southern Ontario.

 

If you studied anything about the auto companies history they had trouble keeping help, a boring job and a turnover rate approaching 50%, it took a decent pay check to get people to stay.

 

Forgotten in this discussion is inflation`s effect, I started with the Teamsters in May of 73 making 5.99 and hour, you could get a brand new van for 3100 bucks and a new house for 28,000. Average worker has seen an overall loss in purchasing power and isn`t smart enough to know it or can do nothing about it. Through out my career as a Teamster my pay just went up a little over 3 times what it was at the start. Still decent money, but to see someone that was in management`s pay go up at a much higher rate than the average worker over the same period? Because he could con you he was worth more? Not many have shown it to me.

 

Sure if the auto companies restarted with new employees at a 25 percent pay cut they would get help, 20 bucks an hour is better than 10 or minimum wage.

 

Not everyone wants to run a company, be a doctor or a lawyer, attend college for 4 to 8 years, does that make them stupid? The old saying too many cooks? Too much competition in your field will make you easily replaceable, and for less money.

[Cast-Away]

I agree with Musky Man. I was so turned off by my last GM built in 1987, I never bought another. I am on my 5th Mazda, of which the last two were built in Detroit, and never had a single complaint about any of them. Why can North American auto workers build good vehicles for Japanese owners, but not to the same standard for North American owners?

 

A friend of mine has worked at Honda in Alliston for a good 10 years and says that the CAW guys are always at the employee entrance pushing their agenda. He said that nobody shows any sign of interest because they are all well treated and paid fairly for the work that they perform. Interesting

 

Lastly, I have a real hard time hearing that some of the workers at the big 3 are making 70K plus per year! Wow, most people do not make that kind of money these days without a university degree. Is it any wonder why the big 3 are in trouble? How can they compete when the cost of labour is so high? Why aren't people willing to take huge pay cuts in order to help make their company more competitive and stay afloat?

[misfish]

well made as the offshore companies.

 

You are joking right?????????????????????

 

 

Are the operators equipped with magic wands that turn dog poop into gold?

It,s called QUALITY CONTROL.

 

 

If yer looking to start up someth,n Rich,not going to happen.

 

I have been in 3 union plants and 3 non. I see the dif.It opens yer eyes.WIDE.

[jediangler]

Here is a link to the 10 best and 10 worst new cars on the market. No surprises here.

 

http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/p/958/best-and-w...performing-cars

 

Remember when Ford's tagline was "Have you driven a Ford, lately?"

The only car I ever owned that needed both the engine and transmission replaced was my Ford.