bigfish1965 Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 a lot of lawyers on this site apparently. If it is his property, he can have the police or MNR press trespassing charges (assume that's what is meant on the tag) though for the most part i think they just ask people to leave. Maybe this is his way of showing the MNR or police that you've been asked/warned before and are a repeat offender. It looks very templated to me. I think the key is to find out if its private property. If it is, then he's probably just an irritated landowner (esp. if that creek sees a lot of traffic). He could probably be more polite, but then some of the comments in this thread are really bad form as well. It goes both ways. btw - there are OFTEN substantial charges on hunters for trespassing on private property. I have heard of 500-1000 dollar fines. Not sure about fishing. A few lawyers, but more importantly a few officers of the law.... He can't have the OPP or anyone press charges. The investigating officer (and it would have to be OPP cause good luck getting the MNR out for that) would have to be satisfied he had evidence and a good chance of a conviction. Not likely an officer wants to get into a spat that crosses into federal jurisdiction (Navigable waterways) and get jammed up in court for days for a $125 ticket, so he'll send you on your way if he feels the landowner is in the right. Hunting and trespassing may bring bigger fines due to the firearms aspect, but a simple trespass ticket for fishing (happens at Dalhousie all the time) is $125 or thereabouts. Signs are required (part of dalhousie is posted and fenced and still people fish there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 A few lawyers, but more importantly a few officers of the law....He can't have the OPP or anyone press charges. The investigating officer (and it would have to be OPP cause good luck getting the MNR out for that) would have to be satisfied he had evidence and a good chance of a conviction. Not likely an officer wants to get into a spat that crosses into federal jurisdiction (Navigable waterways) and get jammed up in court for days for a $125 ticket, so he'll send you on your way if he feels the landowner is in the right. Hunting and trespassing may bring bigger fines due to the firearms aspect, but a simple trespass ticket for fishing (happens at Dalhousie all the time) is $125 or thereabouts. Signs are required (part of dalhousie is posted and fenced and still people fish there). Fair enough. So i can't get fined for trespassing if there are no signs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) A few lawyers, but more importantly a few officers of the law....He can't have the OPP or anyone press charges. The investigating officer (and it would have to be OPP cause good luck getting the MNR out for that) would have to be satisfied he had evidence and a good chance of a conviction. Not likely an officer wants to get into a spat that crosses into federal jurisdiction (Navigable waterways) and get jammed up in court for days for a $125 ticket, so he'll send you on your way if he feels the landowner is in the right. Hunting and trespassing may bring bigger fines due to the firearms aspect, but a simple trespass ticket for fishing (happens at Dalhousie all the time) is $125 or thereabouts. Signs are required (part of dalhousie is posted and fenced and still people fish there). ...or just if there's a creek or waterway that i can follow? There's a creek i would love to fish but never have because i don't know who owns the property (though am pretty sure it is owned) Edited September 2, 2008 by cram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntervasili Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Ok well here is something that I got as a response from the ministry a while back regarding Navigable waters and as well trespassing underwater... "The ownership of a bed of a waterway frequently depends on the question of navigability under the Beds of Navigable Waters Act. Under this Act, the bed of a watercourse that is concluded to be navigable, is owned by the Crown. This Act however does not define navigability; the test of navigability can only be legally determined by a court. Past court cases have established in part, that: a) navigability also means floatable in the sense that it is capable of floating logs for example, a river may be navigable over part of its course and not over other parts, c) a river is not necessarily navigable if it is used for purposes that do not require transportation along the river, e.g., fishing, d) navigability need not be continuous but may fluctuate with the seasons, e) where it is necessary to assert ownership, navigability must be determined as of the date of the original Crown grant, and, f) the location on the waterway should be assessed between two public access points." Hope that helps some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiel Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 ....You should go back, then place the tag under the wiper (again) before venturing off fishing. That'll have 'em scratching his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Signs are required (part of dalhousie is posted and fenced and still people fish there). Signs are not required if its fenced in. Trespass To Property Act Prohibition of entry 3. (1) Entry on premises may be prohibited by notice to that effect and entry is prohibited without any notice on premises, (a) that is a garden, field or other land that is under cultivation, including a lawn, orchard, vineyard and premises on which trees have been planted and have not attained an average height of more than two metres and woodlots on land used primarily for agricultural purposes; or ( that is enclosed in a manner that indicates the occupier’s intention to keep persons off the premises or to keep animals on the premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3 (1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) Hrm, I wonder if I could find a land survey for this area, that would clearly show if I was trespassing or not. I don't plan on going back, especially if me parking on the side of the road and him assuming I was trespassing (he obviously didn't see me on his property or in the creek itself) ticked him off enough to leave this note. If I do find out who owns it, you bet your ass I'll ask permission to fish it I should have assumed it was private property in the first place, so the blame lies on my shoulders. I am willing to bet this would be considered a navigatable waterway, especially during the spring run off. Perhaps if I jumped off the bridge, into the river with my waders this would make him a bit happier? lol There is no way me parking on the side of a public road would be trespassing, that would be the only proof he had, unless he actually saw me, which he didn't. Pinch: no fences, no nothing. Obviously if I saw a fence that would indicate it's private property. The land beside the creek was also not farmed or cultivated... Edited September 2, 2008 by BillM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishing n autograph Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 relax Bill, you won't get a ticket.....besides a trespassing ticket for Entering a premises when entry is prohibited un 3(1) of TPA is $65 anyway....so even if you do get a tag, it's not gonna break the bank.... Trust me I lay 3(1) and the follow subsections regularly for engaging in prohibited activity on premises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) Not worried about a ticket or repercussions My only complaint is that if you are going to leave something like this, you better have the proof or have the stones to sign your name to it. Perhaps, I'll write a little note on the back and leave it where my car was parked. Edited September 2, 2008 by BillM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Not worried about a ticket or repercussions My only complaint is that if you are going to leave something like this, you better have the proof or have the stones to sign your name to it. Perhaps, I'll write a little note on the back and leave it where my car was parked. That's what I would do...sounds like you just want to find out where this person is going to be okay with you fishing...if you can at least have some dialogue with them, they may realize that you're not doing anything wrong. Okay, I'm optimistic, but at least you'll get a chance to prove to them that it sure doesn't look like you're doing anything wrong. Keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookieman Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 The landowner doesn't legally need to post any signs on his property. By law, RED DOTS / MARKERS on trees around the property line are all that's required.....and it's even written on the ticket you received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchenany Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Bill you scared the crap out me! I hope this is not "the river/bridge"! Take F&A with you next time you go and make sure he's in uniform; that will get their excited . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted September 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Bill you scared the crap out me! I hope this is not "the river/bridge"! Take F&A with you next time you go and make sure he's in uniform; that will get their excited . . . Al, it is Luckily I never fish this stretch, so I'll cut my losses and not come back.. Although I did see a biggun dart out after my spinner but develop lockjaw soon after, lol. Water level is really low compared to the usual spots I fish, no great loss I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garyv Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Lots of suggestions on what to do with the "ticket" so I'll add mine. When I was working in the level control industry and we received a memo that was not to our liking we would roll it in a cone shape, put it in the senders in mail basket with a note reading "shove this where it best fits" I can understand where this guy is coming from but since he doesn't have the guts to put his name on it it probably is just a scare tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish1965 Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Signs are not required if its fenced in. Trespass To Property Act Prohibition of entry 3. (1) Entry on premises may be prohibited by notice to that effect and entry is prohibited without any notice on premises, (a) that is a garden, field or other land that is under cultivation, including a lawn, orchard, vineyard and premises on which trees have been planted and have not attained an average height of more than two metres and woodlots on land used primarily for agricultural purposes; or ( that is enclosed in a manner that indicates the occupier's intention to keep persons off the premises or to keep animals on the premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3 (1). I was pointing out the idiocy of the anglers. It is signed AND fenced and they still fish there. Then get all huffy when they get a ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Cliff Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 Personally, I would go back there fishing again only this time I would put up a game camera in some obscure spot to watch over my car, then if he leaves another ticket or does any damage to your car you have proof and could call the OPP yourself. I believe he has done this just to scare you away, I wonder how many times it has worked before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sully Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 Nobody is allowed to touch your car, unless its a real cop or a real by-law enforcement officer(placing a ticket or towing etc...) just by placing a piece of paper under your wiper, someone did something illegal...SUE HIS ASS!!!! bring back the electric chair!!!! worry not, nothing will come of this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I wouldn't want to aggravate this guy/gal more then they already are, although leaving a note on MY car for him would lead to a good laugh I'm sure... I just think the whole ticket thing is a bit silly and uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketchenany Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 Bill, go back and make up a sign for your car "LAND SPECULATOR – LOOKING FOR DEVELOPMENT PROPERTY TO BUILD UP–SCALE CHALET VILLAGE" I'll bet your car will be washed when you get back. He/she must have lots of them printed up because when mooshrooms are in season it's standing room only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carp Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 no it doesnt. says who you ask? dads best friend who is a detective, the police officer at the cop shop i called to find out myself, and my neighbours daughter who has worked for the mnr for im guessing 10 years. its is the responsibility of the person who wishes to use the land to find out who owns the property along with where each property line is. real estate agents can be used for this (some actually wanted me to pay them for 5 minutes work ) another thing that may be an issue is hunting season. when you seek permission to hunt someones land you also find out who else will be using the land and for what. i gladly report any vehicles that shouldn't be in the area for safety and to protect the land i use. As a realtor myself, I know how hard it is to shake the image that a few of our peers have instilled in peoples minds. As far as checking property ownership, I'm looking for the legal owner of a property right now for exactly this topic we are discussing and would never think of asking for a fee. My uncle wants to fish a small creek that's posted on both sides of the road, so I told him if he at least asks the owner for permission, there's always a chance he may get in. Don't ask and you'll never know. So he wants me to do a bit of research for him because the property doesn't have a house on it and neighbours he's asked don't seem to know who owns it. If you do get permission, have a bottle of wine or other gift ready in the car to show your appreciation. A small gesture goes a long way. I always offer to help out around the property when looking permission to hunt land. You land owners paying attention here ? I keep an eye on the property for the owner as well. They really appreciate you informing them of tresspassers and other things. Many times the owner doesn't live at the property to keep an eye on it or it's just too large a parcel to see everything that goes on. Nobody is allowed to touch your car, unless its a real cop or a real by-law enforcement officer(placing a ticket or towing etc...)just by placing a piece of paper under your wiper, someone did something illegal...SUE HIS ASS!!!! bring back the electric chair!!!! worry not, nothing will come of this.... Hard to sue someone if you don't know who it is. There's no clear identity of the person who left the warning. I don't think it was the owner who left this ticket on the windshield. Probably another angler or hunter who doesn't want anyone else on the property. I've actually hunted with a Conservation Officer and he told me only 1% of landowners in Ontario own the river beds. The other 99% only own up to the high water mark. (highest point the water reaches during spring runoff/flooding) He had investigated complaints from a property owner that anglers were on her land. This was one of many previous complaints from the same person. He checked it out, but there was no evidence anyone was on private property. Only 1 angler fishing at the rivers edge by the overpass. Well within government property and fishing legally. I do believe some anglers wander onto peoples land. It's these inconsiderate few that spoil it for everyone else. The CO was ticked at the property owner for wasting his time. Never even questioned the angler. It was enough for the angler to see the MNR vehicle cruising around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillM Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 Carp, that's some great info! I'll see if I can find information on the landowner. I wish I had been at the car when he left the note, I am sure things would have been smoothed out instantly. I don't want to be pegged as the fisherman who doesn't give a crap about other peoples property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish_finder Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 There's lot's of popular rivers around Barrie that have riverbeds privately owned, most GBay tribs aren't classed as "navigable" and a ton of landowners get ticked off by anglers quoting bits & pieces of selective info as they wander around. The kind of foolishness that happens every year up there during salmon season doesn't help either. I've actually researched grey/bruce quite a bit as far as streambed ownership goes. Very very few portions of streams bear a deed to the landowner. Infact, I've only found two which are located on the uppermost sections of one watershed. You can quite easily find out if this is the case by figuring out the land parcel number (ie. lot, concession, township, etc.) and visiting your local land registry office. I did this when I was confronted by a rather upset landowner. I left without a word to keep things clean......but I went through the steps required to find out if he was legit or not, he wasn't. Further steps after finding the right information involve contacting the OPP and the MNR. I keep the info provided by the Land Registry office, the OPP and the MNR in my vest now when I'm on that river. Although I haven't run into him again......yet. It is actually an offense for land owners to prevent you from reasonable enjoyment of public/crown land. The majority of stream beds in Ontario are crown land. The Navigable Waters Protection Act covers alot more than simply 'vessels' and how they use water systems. A navigable water way can also be considered to include fishing, canoeing, kayaking, tubing, and many other recreational activities. Another act to consider in these cases is the Heritage Hunting and Fishing act. Verminator has posted a couple of great threads that involve the NWPA and other acts as well. A search for those threads would probably be good research starting points as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish_finder Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 own the river beds. The other 99% only own up to the high water mark. (highest point the water reaches during spring runoff/flooding) High water mark is not used in Ontario, stream bed is used......your mnr friend is giving you false information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky or Specks Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) High water mark is not used in Ontario, stream bed is used......your mnr friend is giving you false information No he's not streambed includes up to the high water mark. Thats a federal law.(DFO) Edited September 3, 2008 by Musky or Specks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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